Clown Cars for All or Clown Cars FOR NONE

[Walderschmidt]

I played a 2v2 recently with Dondreon. It was more like a 2v1 because we were showing BBC, the new guy, the ropes.

His Kangaroo clown car was super ridiculous.

1) You can't suppress/debuff the units inside
2) You can't damage them until the Kangaroo is destroyed
3) It's super survivable with tank armor (light tank, but still it bounces 37mm often and takes 3-4 hits to kill, even needs 2-3 fausts!)
4) Units inside seem to suffer no real penalty in terms of shooting - an MG can suppress all my troops with ease

I'll put some clips in shortly.

Here is the replay.

4p_martainville.2020-06-27.18-04-01.rec

(1.3 MiB) Downloaded 39 times

Wald

[Warhawks97]

Oh dear, you should have played the game 8 years ago. Kangoroo was crazy OP and a must go for unit with piats and commandos inside or double sniper.


Its not as good as it used to be once but apparently still good.

What i know is that snipers have an accuracy penalty.
I dont know about other units.

[Walderschmidt]

Oh dear, you should have played the game 8 years ago. Kangoroo was crazy OP and a must go for unit with piats and commandos inside or double sniper.


Its not as good as it used to be once but apparently still good.

What i know is that snipers have an accuracy penalty.
I dont know about other units.

I heard about that. At least back then the Axis could build clown cars of their own, albeit with halftracks.

Wald

[Redgaarden]

I'm really sad that the units in the PE halftrack aren't that well protected. They just all get wiped out if a mortar hits the halftrack.

[Walderschmidt]

I'm really sad that the units in the PE halftrack aren't that well protected. They just all get wiped out if a mortar hits the halftrack.

It makes sense that they get hurt, I just wish the Kangaroo had the same issue rather than being an invulnerability cloak.

Also, units don't seem to have a penalty sitting inside the Kangaroo in terms of shooting angles. For example, you can put an MG in there and it's a mobile suppression platform, especially with how the MGs work now. Unfortunately, you can't do that as Axis with their halftracks.

Wald

[CGarr]

I agree with some of these points, but I'd rather see axis HT's get buffed in terms of the protection they offer to passengers. The Kangaroo is slow as balls and is countered by a 50mm pak or literally any vehicle with a gun bigger than 37mm. The model in the game is based on the Ram tank coversions, so it makes sense that it'd bounce 37mm's, it's a medium tank hull. With how many strong AT options are present in the game, I've never understood people complaining about clown cars. Even if they offer good protection from small arms and explosives like the kangaroo (which is their entire purpose), they get creamed by AT guns. If you're trying to faust a kangaroo to death, you're just using the wrong counter. Shrecks will fuck it since it's too slow to escape, and 50mm+ guns have no issues killing it unless you get incredibly unlucky. Plus, if you don't kill it in the first hit it's not the end of the world since the thing doesn't have a main gun of its own to kite you with. The only thing you can't do easily is try to hunt it down at full health with inf offensively, the occupants will kill you before you do enough to finish it off since you're getting less shot opportunities because your unit needs to chase. I posted recently about reworking this thing in terms of making it more viable late game specifically because of how bad it is, and all I've heard from good players like Kwok about the unit is that it used to be really good but now it sucks because of how incredibly slow it is, which lines up with my thoughts on it.

If you really want this thing to get reworked to not be feasible as a disposable clown car, check out my post viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3660 . I think giving incentive to double down on investing resources on this unit as a possible alternative to normal teching that places more emphasis on getting stronger inf rather than armor would be a good way to go, and if the changes I suggested are implemented, the kangaroo would be too expensive to use like a disposable clown car post upgrade and it would maintain its current stats while possibly getting a base price increase, meaning whether or not the brit player chooses to upgrade their kangaroo, clown car strat would be less feasible.

In summary, I'd rather this and other units be buffed to not only be feasible as a support unit, but as a core element of a players unit comp. I'd hate to see this thing get nerfed further, it's already kinda shit unless the axis player just completely ignores building any sort of medium AT, and it doesn't make sense for CW to be penalized because an axis player picked an anti-inf heavy strategy and got punished for it.

[Walderschmidt]

Apparently it has Cromwell armor.

Give it stuart armor.

Wald

[CGarr]

Apparently it has Cromwell armor.

Give it stuart armor.

Wald

The model in game is a Ram tank conversion, which is just a canadian sherman. Cromwell level armor makes sense, although Ram might actually be tougher. The speed doesn't but I'm not going to say we should make this thing fast, that would be aids to deal with.

[Walderschmidt]

Apparently it has Cromwell armor.

Give it stuart armor.

Wald

The model in game is a Ram tank conversion, which is just a canadian sherman. Cromwell level armor makes sense, although Ram might actually be tougher. The speed doesn't but I'm not going to say we should make this thing fast, that would be aids to deal with.

I looked it up and you're right.

Honestly, I'd think it'd be fine with infantry inside the Kangaroo taking damage while inside (which when I talked to MarKr is not intended) and giving MGs a bit of a performance nerf similar to snipers so it's not a no brainer and so a defensive weapon doesn't get instantly turned into an offensive one like that.

Or at least, let the Germans be able to do the same things with their halftracks, given the risk of losing both halftrack and MGs pretty high all else considered.

Wald

[kwok]

Is this a “kangaroo clown cars are stupid” or “Mencius has insane micro to make kangaroo clown cars stupid”?

To me I literally see this as kangaroo used as intended. The gambit is losing the kangaroo will likely kill the expensive units inside.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Is this a “kangaroo clown cars are stupid” or “Mencius has insane micro to make kangaroo clown cars stupid”?

To me I literally see this as kangaroo used as intended. The gambit is losing the kangaroo will likely kill the expensive units inside.

Actually, i think if there is a problem at all.. then it would be exactly this; because i believe MG teams and PIAT squads as well as snipers inside the Kangaroo never die when it's destroyed, at least as far as i'm concerned.

[CGarr]

Is this a “kangaroo clown cars are stupid” or “Mencius has insane micro to make kangaroo clown cars stupid”?

To me I literally see this as kangaroo used as intended. The gambit is losing the kangaroo will likely kill the expensive units inside.

Actually, i think if there is a problem at all.. then it would be exactly this; because i believe MG teams and PIAT squads as well as snipers inside the Kangaroo never die when it's destroyed, at least as far as i'm concerned.

Not sure about full wipes, but every time I've lost a kangaroo (I use them a lot when I play CW) they generally lose at least a few models. I don't think I've ever had a smaller squad (4 men or less) survive when it is destroyed.

[CGarr]

Honestly, I'd think it'd be fine with infantry inside the Kangaroo taking damage while inside (which when I talked to MarKr is not intended) and giving MGs a bit of a performance nerf similar to snipers so it's not a no brainer and so a defensive weapon doesn't get instantly turned into an offensive one like that.

Or at least, let the Germans be able to do the same things with their halftracks, given the risk of losing both halftrack and MGs pretty high all else considered.

Wald

I really don't think the performance or survivability of its passengers should get nerfed, it is slow as fuck and doesn't really do much else. Those qualities are currently the sole reasons to build this unit, making it subpar in those fields as well would just leave the thing with 0 purpose. I don't see players stomping people left and right with kangaroos, and as I've said before, the thing isn't hard to counter (assuming players are similarly skilled).

Think about how relatively shitty the standard german HT is compared to the other units you can buy with that amount of fuel. Why would you want the kangaroo to be in that state? Would it not make sense to give more utility to the the standard axis HT rather than rob it from the kangaroo? I know you're on board with improving standard HT's in terms of utility because we've literally pushed for that exact change together in previous posts. The ability to protect their occupants could be considered an improvement to a utility function of the unit, so why strip the ability from one faction when you could just allow the other factions to have it as well? It's difficult to abuse unless the skill gap between players is massive, as the kangaroo is incapable of escaping most AT weapons capable of penning it.

It's a high-risk/high-reward unit, so when it manages to survive it can allow for some nasty pushes, but again it's really not a hard unit to kill. You also don't have to kill it immediately with whatever AT inf you have available, you just have to scare it away. If you're insistent on killing it, scare it until you bring a tank over and the tank will easily kill it unless you're on a super urban map like St Lo. If you find yourself in that situation, AT inf in buildings hard counter it since they will shoot before it's occupants can shoot back, even if they have a flamethrower. If it doesn't die immediately, it'll be a one hit for the next volley assuming you don't let your AT squad get toasted, and the CW player will probably be backing it up so it won't really be much of a threat. On the defensive, just treat it like a bunker that's vulnerable to AT and tank guns.

[CGarr]

Bumping, I see literally no reason to use the Kangaroo in its current state. The thing is slow as balls, has no effective weapons of it's own, and the inf inside of it die faster than they would on foot, despite essentially being inside of a sherman. If we're going to bring in some dumbass "realism" argument to justify this, then realistically I think if these guys saw/heard an MG firing at them, they would be bright enough to just duck their heads down where they would be perfectly safe. The entire point of an Armored Personnel Carrier is that it can transport troops while protecting them from small arms fire. People would not have bothered making them if they did were as ineffective as they are in BK, and this is reflected in BK by how rarely people build kangaroos for any serious uses. As such, I still feel quite strongly that the nerf should be reverted for the reasons I posted in my above responses.

2p_egletons.2020-11-04.12-49-54.rec

(215.44 KiB) Downloaded 31 times

This replay is from a skirmish since I don't have any replays of the kangaroo being a pile of shit in team games because I stopped using it after watching a vetted squad of RE's die in one burst from an MG42, but I just needed an MG42 to drive into so a bot is good enough. Feel free to try driving a kangaroo with a squad inside towards an MG emplacement or MG42 team in cover, I am sure the occupants will have a wonderful time.

On a similar note, axis halftracks would probably be a much more feasible investment if they too were able to close distance on .30 cal MG's without either the occupants dying or the whole vehicle getting shredded with AP. US has a ton of .50 cals in their arsenal and CW has boys AT squads, so removing rifle caliber AP from MG's on all factions and giving HT occupants a defensive buff similar to the pre-nerf kangaroo would give them some more utility without turning them into some crazy rolling death machine.

Counterbalance would be to reduce the occupant's offensive capabilities by a percentage equivalent to whatever defensive buff they get, or completely if someone is going to throw a fit because they don't know how to deal with clown cars.

[Diablo]

I think part of the problem with the latest mechanic (infantry can be hit inside vehicles) is the received accuracy. I figure putting a full burst onto a large target like the Kangaroo results in many more bullets hitting their target, as opposed to small infantrymen. Even more so when the infantry could get suppressed and lay down, which they can't inside a vehicle.

So just as inside buildings, i would suggest infantry in vehicles to still be easily hit, but the damage received should be reduced quite a lot. I'm thinking like 3/4 the protection a building provides.

[CGarr]

I think part of the problem with the latest mechanic (infantry can be hit inside vehicles) is the received accuracy. I figure putting a full burst onto a large target like the Kangaroo results in many more bullets hitting their target, as opposed to small infantrymen. Even more so when the infantry could get suppressed and lay down, which they can't inside a vehicle.

So just as inside buildings, i would suggest infantry in vehicles to still be easily hit, but the damage received should be reduced quite a lot. I'm thinking like 3/4 the protection a building provides.

I mean, if anything it should be more protection than a building since I'm pretty sure tank armor offers more protections than bricks or wood. I'll concede to 3/4 the value of building protection if it's that big of a deal to everyone.

Seeing as how only one of the 5 people that originally posted in this thread was upset with the previous status quo and everyone else seemed to be more bothered by the fact that Axis simply didn't have an equivalent, I would guess the majority of players would be in favor of reverting the kangaroo nerf and instead giving better protection to HT occupants so all factions have a similar option. I don't speak for everyone though, that's just my best guess.

I'll make a poll.

[Diablo]

For the protocol, i preferred the old system, but can adapt to the new version. I'd just like a little more forgiving setting.

Edit: typo

[Walderschmidt]

I realize that the nerf to the Kangaroo was a mistake. I have a better idea. I will post in your new thread.

Wald