Give Tulips Ammo Upkeep

[Walderschmidt]

Tulips are ridiculous.

Cost 30 to equip and 30 to use.

They reduce tanks to half health and can two shot at guns with decent accuracy.

Can they get ammo upkeep or made more expensive? Mencius can back me up on this.

Here's the replay:

4p_martainville.2020-06-27.18-04-01.rec

(1.3 MiB) Downloaded 22 times

I'll attach a video clip of what I mean soon.

Wald

[Redgaarden]

I remember we talked aobut tulips before. And I think they got nerfed? They dont cost 50 muni to shoot?

EDIT: I really can't remember much about the tulips.

[Walderschmidt]

I remember we talked aobut tulips before. And I think they got nerfed? They dont cost 50 muni to shoot?

EDIT: I really can't remember much about the tulips.

The cost 30 muni to shoot.

Wald

[CGarr]

They're good but I wouldn't say they're ridiculous. Brits don't have a heavy with an AT capable gun like the other 3 factions so it makes sense for them to have a hard hitter that doesn't cost a ton of muni to shoot. The rockets take a while to fire and need direct line of sight, so they're comparable to the super pershing gun. I think the best course of action would be to tie them to the comet unlock so they at least come out later. Nerfing their performance or increasing their cost prob wouldn't be a good idea though, as they miss often enough that a price increase would be ridiculous, and I've never seen them kill a full health heavy outright in one volley. Even panthers generally take 2 volleys unless you get perfect hits with both rockets.

If this thing gets nerfed, I strongly suggest you start playing RE on CW in team games so you can see how bad their anti-heavy options are. 17 pounders scare away KT's/tiger aces, but unless the opponent just isn't paying attention, it won't outright kill them before they can back up out of range. Not to mention, the iterations of the gun available in game are either slow/immobile field guns, or expensive tanks that wont kill a KT/tiger ace before it can kill them, even if they get the first shot off from ambush. There's nothing stopping an axis player with one of these tanks from just rolling over the RE player with arty and their super heavy. US at least has proper heavies that can eat a shot from these beasts without dying. To suggest the comet, firefly, or achilles are comparable in effectiveness to a pershing in this scenario is just ridiculous, and if that isn't what you are suggesting then please tell me what your plan for dealing with a super heavy as RE offensively is. 17 pdr spam is an option for keeping you alive, but against a competent player you probably aren't going gain much ground before they've saved up enough for some kind of arty strike and just take that ground right back.

I've had good players use this thing against me and never had trouble with it, just keep moving your tank or hiding behind shot-blockers and it's chances of hitting are like 0.

[Walderschmidt]

Did you watch the replay?

Mencius himself is saying they're OP and gotta be toned down or given an upkeep.

Secondly, you can fire at 200 range in the FOW of war when an arty unit lights up.

Wald

[Krieger Blitzer]

i agree Tulip rockets are a bit over the top currently, i would give them longer cool-down in addition to ammo upkeep.

[CGarr]

@ Wald No, but I've used them before and I've heard his thoughts on them. He says they're OP but agrees with me in that they should stay in their current state, as RE doc would otherwise be heavily under-equipped for dealing with super heavies like the KT or tiger ace (even the panther ace can get away with eating a 17 pounder shot after the Ace tank buffs) in a mobile manner. I'll let him confirm that himself if he wishes to, but we literally just talked about it 4 hours prior to me writing this post.

Neither of you acknowledged that point at all, so until you give a good alternative, I don't see how changing them would be reasonable. I don't think any decent player would want to play this doctrine if their only option for dealing with these common threats is to sit behind AT guns and fireflies while trying to just bombard these units with arty, being helpless against a unit even when you have an excess of resources and your entire doctrine tree unlocked is not a fun feeling. I've seen you guys use tigers, it's not the CW player's fault you just blitz them in with no support and they happen to get a mobility crit and just get tulip'd to death. Neither of you are bad players so it is weird to see you guys complain about this specific issue.

Again, keep moving and the tulip wont be an issue. As someone who uses them most of the time I play CW now, I can tell you first-hand that half their shots will either hit a random shot-blocker or the ground in front of your target. They also take forever to fire, so if you're just peeking and taking single shots at targets, the CW player probably won't have time to react without spending an unreasonable amount of time microing only that tulip-equipped sherman. For the same reason, you can also bait the shot if you think they're going to try and time it to hit as you're peeking.

If your arty is getting hit by tulips you have bigger issues than just tulips, build the howitzers behind shotblockers if it's that big of an issue, or just don't be so aggressive with your howitzer placement.

[Walderschmidt]

@ Wald No, but I've used them before and I've heard his thoughts on them. He says they're OP but agrees with me in that they should stay in their current state, as RE doc would otherwise be heavily under-equipped for dealing with super heavies like the KT or tiger ace (even the panther ace can get away with eating a 17 pounder shot after the Ace tank buffs) in a mobile manner. I'll let him confirm that himself if he wishes to, but we literally just talked about it 4 hours prior to me writing this post.

I'm extremely skeptical that the Panther Ace can eat 17 pounder shot after shot like it's nothing. I'll concede that RE doesn't have any really good options for anti-heavy tanks other than the Sherman Firefly which sometimes feels like an anemic Panther. I wonder if giving it camo would help things out.

Neither of you acknowledged that point at all, so until you give a good alternative, I don't see how changing them would be reasonable. I don't think any decent player would want to play this doctrine if their only option for dealing with these common threats is to sit behind AT guns and fireflies while trying to just bombard these units with arty, being helpless against a unit even when you have an excess of resources and your entire doctrine tree unlocked is not a fun feeling. I've seen you guys use tigers, it's not the CW player's fault you just blitz them in with no support and they happen to get a mobility crit and just get tulip'd to death. Neither of you are bad players so it is weird to see you guys complain about this specific issue.

1) I concede that I don't have a good alternative. So just nerfing it without ensuring that RE can adequately handle big tanks is a recipe for distaster, especially since it feels like every German doctrine has a BFT (Big Fuckin' Tank). I do want to stress however, that these reworks are to make all doctrines able to 1v1, not necessarily to make the game 100% balanced. That is to say, every doctrine has tools to deal with just about everything. Shitty tools are still tools.

2) My chief issue with the tulips, besides their 200 range, their ability to two shot KTs and Elefants, and lack of limit on them, is the fact that it costs 30 munitions to fire one set.

I suppose I'd compare my dislike of a such a trivial cost to kill a KT or Elefant from full health would be similar to your distaste for volkssturm shredding rifles and rangers alike all for the low cost of 25, 40, or 90 munitions depending on which variation of prop war debuff one uses. But that brings me to my next point.

Again, keep moving and the tulip wont be an issue. As someone who uses them most of the time I play CW now, I can tell you first-hand that half their shots will either hit a random shot-blocker or the ground in front of your target. They also take forever to fire, so if you're just peeking and taking single shots at targets, the CW player probably won't have time to react without spending an unreasonable amount of time microing only that tulip-equipped sherman. For the same reason, you can also bait the shot if you think they're going to try and time it to hit as you're peeking.

I highlighted the bit about "blitzing my Tiger in with no support" and "keep moving and the tulip won't be an issue". Because you make my point for me. If I misuse my Tiger or rush it without support like a bulldog in a china shop, I deserve to lose it. I'm not complaining about that. And in fact the fact that it gets a mobility crit in the former bolded highlights that the Tulip did not take out the Tiger alone. Three things took it out.

a) My reckless handling of the Tiger
b) Whatever unit mobility crit'd the Tiger
c) The tulip that shot the coup de grace

I've got no issue with being outplayed. I do have issue if I get a Tiger and then CW just deletes it with cheapo Tulips.

At least with RAF/Airborne, the enemy has to expend 140+ muni to delete the Tank. I suppose you could argue that one has to pay manpower, fuel, and muni to get the tank and equip it with the Tulips, but then again, you get a fully functional tank that still works after you fire the Tulip. And you can fire it again after a short cool down for 30 muni.

Just like how CW players hate that the 37mm Pak Halftrack in PE can delete the Churchill with the super rocket, I hate the tulip. And because there's been no solution proposed to alleviate the issue, I'm against the 37mm HT from being changed or removed. I was against the Pak 50mm losing the super rocket but I guess someone was abusing it. I suspect may have counter-productively encouraged people to find out how good the tulip is and abuse it by posting this thread. And then it will be a hotly contested item, just like the hotchkiss tank.


In conclusion, you have convinced me that we shouldn't make any changes to the tulip until alternatives for taking out big tanks as RE are addressed.

If your arty is getting hit by tulips you have bigger issues than just tulips, build the howitzers behind shotblockers if it's that big of an issue, or just don't be so aggressive with your howitzer placement.

I said nebels, not arty, as nebels can move and I know to move them often to avoid counter battery fire. The issue I was pointing out was that the tulips have no downside in range, cost, or power. Even their accuracy is pretty damn good.

But that said, I've conceded the main argument, so I won't belabor this anymore.

Wald

[CGarr]

We already talked in disc, I'm just replying for the record in case someone tries to keep this awful idea going.

I said panther ace can take a shot and get away with it, not sit there.

You definitely said arty, right above tiger's post.

There's a difference between shitty tools and lack of tools. What tank or vehicle mounted weapon would you say RE, CW's best doctrine for tanks, has to deal with KT's? 17 pounder AT guns scare them since the kill isn't guaranteed if you try to push it, but I've never backed away from a firefly or achilles with a KT and an ace tank can just use ALRS on them (a good point actually, they can also snipe the tulip tanks lol). Comet is there but that's basically an achilles that cant cloak, and damage-wise the ace tanks have enough health now that you could 2v1 a Tiger ace even with flanking and still lose if your rolls aren't perfect (pen, damage, and the mandatory gun crit since if its gun is up the comet will die first unless they overextended hard). churchill arty tank could kill it pretty damn fast, but that requires vet and the person not moving their BFT, so its not much different from a tulip (especially considering how often tulip misses at least one shot of the 2 shot volley). The only other mobile option I can think of is stun rounds on the staghound, and I think those are broken so that prob wont work. Keep in mind, this is the one brit doctrine where it makes sense to have a vehicle mounted option, so to say that some docs have shitty tools is kinda retarded when this is the one doc where it'd make sense

Pretty sure there's a 2 tank limit on tulips unless something changed recently. 30 muni is turns into 60 muni when you consider that it'll take at least 2 volleys 90% of the time in an actual game against a full health heavy that's moving around, although in my experience 3 is the magic number, so 90 muni. That's far from a one volley instakill, that's like a 5 minute slugfest with what is probably just an immobilized but still extremely deadly unit and its like that almost every time. The range is long, sure, but there's a super accurate arty churchill available as well for dealing with emplacements and counter arty, and as far as using it at max range against a tank, good luck with timing that shit against someone who's actually moving their tank. ALRS also exists and can snipe at incredibly long ranges as well, so the its not like the super heavies and ace tanks cant fight back.

I'm not really worried about people abusing them, the muni cost adds up after a while especially if you lose them and the micro needed means they aren't paying attention to their inf, whom I'm generally a lot a more scared of.

The Vsturm comparison isn't really fair since it's guaranteed hits and a much faster kill. As for their anti inf performance, you're comparing apples to oranges. Rangers are pricey because they kill reasonably fast, not because they are super durable. I get pissed off that my rangers won't out DPS the vsturms even from green cover, not because they cost a ton to lose. There is no answer to the stupid propaganda debuffs. There is answers to tulips, and I've already mentioned a few of their weaknesses. Rifles are a joke so you don't even need the ability to kill them, not sure why you mentioned them.

I still don't see the difference between you killing a tank with fausts from volksgrens or gebirgs (vsturms are only aids because of the rest of the doctrine's debuffs, their lack of a received accuracy debuff when blobbed, and their extremely low cost). I haven't complained that fausts should get removed, the closest I've gotten is saying one of the 3 units that has them should be changed to be more defense oriented.

The super rocket is aids but PE against a brit is going to be aids for both sides. The cheapo rocket was also way the hell more consistent, and its not like PE doesn't have options for dealing with heavies if it gets removed (2 of the docs have their own heavies and the third has a nashorn). With that being said, im fine with the HT and I was also bummed out when the 50mm lost its nuke.

Considering, how boring US is to play now, I'm afraid you might be right about this possibly becoming a hot thing that people are going to bitch about since more will prob play brtis when beta goes live.