Warhawks' Calliope Jeep Idea: POLL

[Walderschmidt]

Just making a proper poll for Warhawks' idea:

One other method could be to give it two barrage abilties just like the calliope sherman has it.

The long one would be like the original with 12 missiles fired and another one shooting either 6 or 9 missiles for lower cost and lower cooldown.

I think it's a great idea.

Wald

[kwok]

Can you set this up so people can change their mind? Let people revote.

Here's why I think no on this idea but I have a counter proposal.

The original reason why this jeep got nerfed was

1. it was super used in almost all USA games.
2. there was no reason to get the calliope sherman over this unit because even though the sherman version had more rockets/longer barrage it was too easy for units to just run away from the barrage for it to do anything.

I think a differentiator could be the role. Sherman can deny a large area with its long and large barrage. Meanwhile, the rocket jeep can be used on a smaller area only to dislodge extremely heavily defended choke points.

Maybe reduce the range and scatter of the barrage?

[CGarr]

Can you set this up so people can change their mind? Let people revote.

Here's why I think no on this idea but I have a counter proposal.

The original reason why this jeep got nerfed was

1. it was super used in almost all USA games.
2. there was no reason to get the calliope sherman over this unit because even though the sherman version had more rockets/longer barrage it was too easy for units to just run away from the barrage for it to do anything.

I think a differentiator could be the role. Sherman can deny a large area with its long and large barrage. Meanwhile, the rocket jeep can be used on a smaller area only to dislodge extremely heavily defended choke points.

Maybe reduce the range and scatter of the barrage?

Voted no but only because I like this idea better, I don't see the full barrage being adjusted in terms of cost or cooldown in a way that will make it useful without being OP. Tightening the barrage scatter and range would make this thing useful without being OP since it would become more comparable to light artillery (pack howi, leig, etc..).

[Walderschmidt]

Done, please revote

[Warhawks97]

Can you set this up so people can change their mind? Let people revote.

Here's why I think no on this idea but I have a counter proposal.

The original reason why this jeep got nerfed was

1. it was super used in almost all USA games.
2. there was no reason to get the calliope sherman over this unit because even though the sherman version had more rockets/longer barrage it was too easy for units to just run away from the barrage for it to do anything.

I think a differentiator could be the role. Sherman can deny a large area with its long and large barrage. Meanwhile, the rocket jeep can be used on a smaller area only to dislodge extremely heavily defended choke points.

Maybe reduce the range and scatter of the barrage?

Voted no but only because I like this idea better, I don't see the full barrage being adjusted in terms of cost or cooldown in a way that will make it useful without being OP. Tightening the barrage scatter and range would make this thing useful without being OP since it would become more comparable to light artillery (pack howi, leig, etc..).

Ok, but thats against the logic of missile artillery that is supposed to scatter and hit a larger area rather than being precise ammunition.

So a huge NO from my side to a reintroduction of guided super precise rocket arty.



We just increased all rocket arty scatter (esspecially german one) to be more an area effect weapon. Shell artillery being more precise while rocket artillery is supposed to hit a larger area. We had sniping rocket artillery in the past and it got changed. Rocket artillery once had a scatter reduction when gaining vet which got removed as well for exactly for this reason.


And now we go back and re-implement accurate rocket artillery. I am against it simply bc rockets are being fired in a quick succession and thus the strikes come in very quick. That enables you to literally snipe away any target, let it me lower HP halftracks, AT guns, damaged tanks etc etc etc.

Thats not what rocket arty is designed for. This is why gun artillery exists. More precise but longer delay between the shots.





I do believe its possible to add two barrage types.
The 12 missiles would get a longer cooldown and costs like 60 ammo. The 6 missile option would be like 30 ammo and current cooldown.


The calli sherman still remains a worthy unit bc it fires more missiles for the ammo spent and esspecially in larger offensive operations becoming a must have for prolonged area denial.

[MarKr]

[Warhawks97]

Calliope.jpg

If thats the proposed change, i dont see how it will make 6 missiles more effective.

We would then be better off with having more missiles fired to actually increase the chance of killing something.

The past games the calli jeeps were complete waste, even when targeting populated areas.

[MarKr]

The picture was just a quick work in MS Paint (dat skill, right? ) which is not exactly what it would look like, the point is that somebody mentions "rockets could have a bit lower scatter" and you exaggerate it into "I don't want laser-guided missiles".

[Walderschmidt]

Calliope.jpg

If thats the proposed change, i dont see how it will make 6 missiles more effective.

We would then be better off with having more missiles fired to actually increase the chance of killing something.

The past games the calli jeeps were complete waste, even when targeting populated areas.

Are you being willfully ignorant? Can you not see how the lower scatter at the bottom would be more accurate and able to hit the intended target through splash damage if not a direct hit?

Wald

[Diablo]

Maybe reducing the firing speed (rpm) of the Jeeps barrage would improve balance. It theoretically lowers the DPS to the target area, which in turn allows a vigilant player to quickly move his units to minimize losses.
How long did the original 12 shot barrage take to complete? Like 2-3 seconds?

Perhaps firing 12 missiles over a span of 6 seconds would be fine..

[kwok]

So I didn't think through that much and didn't expect "Kwok's Idea" to get so many votes. I legit have no idea how to balance that from like a specific values perspective. Like how much should scatter be reduced? How much should range be reduced?

I also had another idea that I'd steal from steel division. What if the rocket barrage rockets went back to 12 but rockets as a whole got a different role/effect?
Rockets have lower damage against all targets (including inf, armor, buildings) high suppression, high chance to decrew emplacements? This would apply to maultiers, rocket jeep, calliope, nebel (with additional effects to flame). Probably wouldn't apply to hotchkiss and walking stuka because honestly I just don't want to deal with player complaints regarding those two units in particular.

[Walderschmidt]

So I didn't think through that much and didn't expect "Kwok's Idea" to get so many votes. I legit have no idea how to balance that from like a specific values perspective. Like how much should scatter be reduced? How much should range be reduced?

I also had another idea that I'd steal from steel division. What if the rocket barrage rockets went back to 12 but rockets as a whole got a different role/effect?
Rockets have lower damage against all targets (including inf, armor, buildings) high suppression, high chance to decrew emplacements? This would apply to maultiers, rocket jeep, calliope, nebel (with additional effects to flame). Probably wouldn't apply to hotchkiss and walking stuka because honestly I just don't want to deal with player complaints regarding those two units in particular.

"Wait! I take it back!"

Afraid this will lead to something similar to the Hotchkiss where its max range was lowered so people started using it at its effective range?

I do say your is compelling, but I imagine there would be complaints nonetheless given how suppression is less integral an effect from arty in BK as it is in Steel Division. People mostly use arty to kill, or retreat units under the threat of them being destroyed whole sale depending on RNJesus.

I'd say test this out on the callope Jeep and the Maultier, and slightly reduce barrage cost if their kill power is reduced (maybe keep Maultier where it's at?) The high chance to decrew emplacements would be a hugely welcome change and would probably be the tipping point in terms of acceptance, I think.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

Ok, in short we trade damage for suppression?

First of all i think arty should always suppress, esspecially barrage type weapons like callis.


But i wouldnt make all rocket arty or arty in general to only suppress. That would feel weird when a long tom shell lands on target with 40 kg of explosives and huge boom effect and no damage is dealt.

Same for the big rocket stuff like the 210 nebler and bigger missiles which had crazy blast and/or shrappnel effects (28 kg of explosiv mass being delivered)

Perhaps when you inf lays down in cover the damage dealed is less as soldiers would be less likely caught by the blast.



So damage against suppressed inf that is in cover gets reduced. The suppression effect would be high ending up in pinning them right down if enough missiles land closeby.




To get this all right a lot of fine tuning would be required but worth an attempt i would say.

[Walderschmidt]

Ok, in short we trade damage for suppression?

First of all i think arty should always suppress, esspecially barrage type weapons like callis.

Just to keep this on target - Kwok specifically mentioned rocket artillery - he'd not make any change to normal artillery or mortars.

But i wouldnt make all rocket arty or arty in general to only suppress. That would feel weird when a long tom shell lands on target with 40 kg of explosives and huge boom effect and no damage is dealt.

Same for the big rocket stuff like the 210 nebler and bigger missiles which had crazy blast and/or shrappnel effects (28 kg of explosiv mass being delivered)

Perhaps when you inf lays down in cover the damage dealed is less as soldiers would be less likely caught by the blast.

I think he plans to test this first on the rocket calliope to see if it's useful and if people like it before considering other options. I think the 210mm Nebels should stay as they are or get a slight buff to suppression since they cost so much to fire and the opponent has time to run away.

So damage against suppressed inf that is in cover gets reduced. The suppression effect would be high ending up in pinning them right down if enough missiles land closeby.

That'd be a fair concession. It'd be nice to think that infantry in cover might have some chance to avoid getting outright murdered if they're in green cover or something.

To get this all right a lot of fine tuning would be required but worth an attempt i would say.

So can we count on your vote? Or at least, getting this concept to alpha?

Wald

[Warhawks97]

So can we count on your vote? Or at least, getting this concept to alpha?

Wald

Ofc. I think calli would benefit from it and making it better suited as support during your offense. Like you fire all the rockets and the inf in the target sector has to take its heads down, weapon crews get screwed while your tanks role in with little resistance coz the inf is all pinned down.

I love that concept.

Still, if a missile hits a soldier at his head he is still supposed to die i think.

[Walderschmidt]

Still, if a missile hits a soldier at his head he is still supposed to die i think.

No disagreement here!

Wald

[Diablo]

Seeing (actually any) arty fire suppress soldiers in utter fear of death and disbelieve of their blown up comrades.. sounds gritty and realistic. I like it.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I also had another idea that I'd steal from steel division. What if the rocket barrage rockets went back to 12 but rockets as a whole got a different role/effect?
Rockets have lower damage against all targets (including inf, armor, buildings) high suppression, high chance to decrew emplacements? This would apply to maultiers, rocket jeep, calliope, nebel (with additional effects to flame). Probably wouldn't apply to hotchkiss and walking stuka because honestly I just don't want to deal with player complaints regarding those two units in particular.

This won't work in Bk Mod i think, no one would use such rocket arty if it were just a suppression tool.