Jeep, schwimmwagens and bikes

[Warhawks97]

We have a similiar topic but i want a topic to speak clearly about those three units.

Bike is actually OK as it is. Cheap and deadly but not able to stand a firefight agaist inf behind cover. Its all good.


The schwimm is also OK in my opinion. I dont see any probs here except that it has no real chance vs jeep. But schimmwagen itself is ok. Versatile with nice abilites, deald MG42 shredding inf still much faster as jeep but should not fight agains squads behind cover even when it can for while. Just it could deal more damage to jeep a bit or jeep less to schwimmwagen.


The Jeep. It becomes complicated now and its pretty weird. First it seems that Pgrens are really easier pinned by it. Also i think the suppression is set too high. It not only suppresses inf, it pins it even entirely and Pgrens get pinned behing green cover sometimes (Volksgrens recover from it behind green cover). It should suppress inf on the field an able to kill and stop it but not pin. Idk what happend here.

Also it can stand a fight against inf behind green cover (even Pgrens) which it shouldnt be able to. Idk whether it is because the inf is suppressed and thus their firepower reduced or if the jeep simply takes too many bullets.



as conclusion and orientation maybe i would say that:

-Jeep can beat bike in 1 vs 1 as this is cheaper and still more deadly to inf on fields and also because axis paks have powerfull HE rounds in early game. Still jeep could take more damage by Mg42 salvos.

-Schwimm is OK. Maybe more able to compete with jeep in 1 vs 1 but slighlty inferior maybe as the mg42 shreds inf still faster so far and as it has also several abilites what jeep hasnt.

-Jeep suppression need to be checked. Less suppressive against inf behind green cover and not pinning so fast (its almost like a tank which has suppressive fire ability activated). Should not be able to fight and beat enemie inf if those has green cover but should stay effective movment infantry denier and flank protection. Could also take a bit more damage from Mg42 salvos. Maybe thats possible by TT changes but dont increase HP of any of these vehicles (and dont decrease if possible at first).

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Scwim is not ok, it dieing with 5 shitty Garang bullets. It must be like the old one, exept taking too much hits from at boys.

[Warhawks97]

Scwim is not ok, it dieing with 5 shitty Garang bullets. It must be like the old one, exept taking too much hits from at boys.

wow... my last survived more than 5 bullets. It survived even three bursts of the enemie jeep. At least i found nothing really strange on it. Strange is only jeeps suppression and the bullet resistance.

[Tony_Frost]

I didnt find in 4.8.6 nor 4.8.5 changelogs any information about Scwimmwagen changes. Iirc it was good vehicles. What happend with it in this patch?

[MarKr]

I wrote it under 4.8.6.0 changelog - it had same armor type as US jeeps have - It is hard to say if it was intention or an oversight but it was the reason why BOYS did so little damage to it when compared to Bikes - Jeep is allied vehicle and BOYS is allied non-dropable weapon since you cannot play allies vs allies (nor axis vs axis) weapons are usually not balanced for such ocasion (iirc most allied tanks have about 0.00001% chance to penetrate Achilles but it's not important to fix since in game you'll never see such situation) so we assigned to the Schwimm the same armor type as the Bikes have (we thought it will be OK since there were no problems with Bikes) but for some reason Schwimms seem to be very fragile now - much more than they should be. It should be tweaked in the comming patch.

[Warhawks97]

Schwimm is not more fragile as bike. More fragile maybe as before but its ok for me.

But to make it clear: all three have same armor type right? and schwimm has same HP is jeep right? If so it can only rely on target tables. Maybe there is some penetration of bullets against these vehicles and that schwimms and bikes just get easier "penetrated" by allied bullets as the jeep by axis bullets. Rather make jeep more fragile. In fact they are all unarmored fragile recconassaince vehicles but they are pretty dominant in early game. They should die by mg bursts or concentrated rifle fire quite fast.

[crimax]

Jeep should have a bit more armor than schwimm and bike, but just a bit, a bit. For two reasons:

1 - counteract possible early spam by WE + PE (schwimm + bike or double) also because Brit AT squad it is not affective against them.

2 - It is a jeep, it different from sidecar or bike. More heavy and strong.

About suppression, imho, it is too hight. It should be removed when infantry is in green cover and decreased when infantry is not in green cover, because it suppress infantry immediately. Give infantry a delay before suppression, an idea ... 2 seconds ? if codable.

[MarKr]

But to make it clear: all three have same armor type right?

Well, no... Schwimm and Bike have same armor type, Jeep has same as always had (not same as Bike/Schwimm) - what are you getting at?

If so it can only rely on target tables.

Not ONLY but mainly, yes.

Maybe there is some penetration of bullets against these vehicles and that schwimms and bikes just get easier "penetrated" by allied bullets as the jeep by axis bullets.

We tried to locate the source of the problem and went throught the TT too but everything seems to be ok. Also since Bike and Schwimm have same armor type and Bike actually has less HP than Schwimm, that means that Bike should always die faster (when being shot at from same weapon) but that is not the case. It seems that there is somewhere some hidden modificator that makes Scwimm more vulnerable but there are so many places where it could be hidden that it is impossible to locate if you don't know where to look :/.

But hey, Schwimm got HP boost, Jeep got weapon nerf...let's see how that works in the next patch and if it's still not "eňo ňuňo" (as we say in czech - means something like "OK") then we can discuss it further.

EDIT:

About suppression, imho, it is too hight. It should be removed when infantry is in green cover and decreased when infantry is not in green cover, because it suppress infantry immediately.

I think that one of the jeep weapon changes was also some suppression reduction so we'll see how that plays out.

[Warhawks97]

Why not changing jeep armor type to those of schwimmwagen?


If schwimm dies as fast as bike (which is from my experience not the vase) why not drop schwimm cost by like -10?


Jeep got weapon nerf? Only suppression is a bit too high. The Killrate is still far below schwimms etc. So why dropping the damage again? The damage is the only on jeep which is correct now.



You are making things just more complicate with new changes. More as neccessary.

[MarKr]

I wasn't detailed enough - weapon nerf meant against Schwimm. And people already said that Jeep supresses too fast, so the supress decrease is also fine...

[Warhawks97]

I wasn't detailed enough - weapon nerf meant against Schwimm. And people already said that Jeep supresses too fast, so the supress decrease is also fine...

i said that suppression is OP. And thing with schwimm vs jeep i would simply add the same armor value to jeep. You changed it of schwimm as it was to resistant to boys AT and it affected resitance to bullets. So the Jeep has actually the same problem and i think the easiest way of all would be to give Jeep same armor values of schwimm and bike (why shouldnt it affect the bullet resistant as well?) and nerf suppression a bit. Isnt that at first easier as to change every single vehicle with weird HP increases and decreases and damage changes..... srsly maybe you create more chaos as neccessary. If this wont help then you can change HP´s etc but now its a bit to drastically.


Same btw for the AT squads. The easiest way had been to make for all factions 65 HP and same or smiliar armor values.


Thing is that if you change all that stuff and it wont help you wont know how the old values had been if you consider then to follow my suggested changes.

[MarKr]

and it affected resitance to bullets

It was a combination of of the new armor type and some other crap. Just think about it -

Bike: Bike armor type, less HP than Schwimm

Schwimm: Bike armor type, more HP than Bike

When a Riflemen squad with Garands fires at bike = all buffs and nerfs connected to Bike's armor type apply then deal damage. When the same squad fires at Schwimm, same buffs and nerfs apply, because it has same armor type, then deal damage. So same mechanics apply to both Bike and Schwimm BUT Schwimm has more HP so it should be more durable but it is NOT. That tells us that there are probably some hidden modifiers that apply only to Schwimm (and not to Bike) and this hidden modifier is the problem. So giving Jeep same armor type as Bike/Schwimm makes little sense.
Also I guess it would actually cause more trouble since AXIS weapons are poorly adjusted to firing at AXIS armor types (for the reason I gave in one of the previous posts) so I think we can presume it would actually make the Jeep even more durable...

[Warhawks97]

oh, ok. didnt know that there is an "axis" and "allied" armor type. Just thought there is one. For inf for example doesnt exist an special axis and allied armor type or?


Also whats the difference in HP between schwimms and bikes? 125 for bike and 185 for schwimm? or 75 for bike (that has been in 4.02 but i think bike got 125). So maybe the difference is just not noticebale as it is like 2 or 3 hits more only.


and why needs the schwimm to be more durable or much more than a bike? I think the Jeep should just be as fragile as the schwimm. I dont see the need for a large difference of those 3.

[MarKr]

For some reason vehicles have armor types such as "tp_allied_jeep" and "tp_axis_motorbike" while infantry is more like "tp_infantry" or "tp_infantry_airborne" etc... you can assign an "axis" armor type to allied vehicle but as I said - since the game mechanics doesn't allow to play "mirror" matches, the main focus was put on "Allies weapon vs Axis armor type" so sometimes the values of allied weapons against allied armor types are off (same goes for axis weapon vs axis armor) - it was like this since vanila game but there was no reason to put time into fixing it...capturable weapons have OK stats since there it is needed.

Also whats the difference in HP between schwimms and bikes? 125 for bike and 185 for schwimm? or 75 for bike (that has been in 4.02 but i think bike got 125). So maybe the difference is just not noticebale as it is like 2 or 3 hits more only.

Don't know from top of my head...would have to check it.

and why needs the schwimm to be more durable or much more than a bike? I think the Jeep should just be as fragile as the schwimm. I dont see the need for a large difference of those 3.

I don't think it's about making Schwimm much more durable than Bike rather than making Schwimm at least as durable as Bike

As I said before - wait and see what the difference will be when the patch comes out

[Warhawks97]

I don't think it's about making Schwimm much more durable than Bike rather than making Schwimm at least as durable as Bike

Hmmm...Is that really the case? I am not sure.

As I said before - wait and see what the difference will be when the patch comes out

ok. But i hope that jeep will be still able to stop enemie inf on fields.

[Wake]

I think I found a bug with the bren carrier with Boys AT rifle. It must have a ridiculously low accuracy modifier - I tried using one to attack some axis vehicles, and it missed 5 consecutive shots before I pulled it back. I've used it in three games, and I've never seen it hit anything. Always a miss.

Could we also look at the prices for both of the bren carriers?

Standard Bren Carrier costs 340 MP and 10 fuel, with a vickers upgrade for 60 muni or a boys AT for 30. This is more or less an allied equivalent to the scout car - early game vehicles that are 100% bulletproof to normal weapons that have a MG and cost 10 fuel. But the performance on the scout car is much much better, yet the scout car costs a little bit less at 300 MP and 10 fuel. The scout car has a 360 degree turret to shoot at all angles, is faster, has a deadlier gun, and can lock down points and completely deny areas of the map to enemy infantry with its instant-pin, while also acting as an OP for the PE granting more resources. AT infantry can't even approach a locked-down scout car.

The bren carrier on the other hand, has a worse weapon, is quite slow, and needs to face the enemy it shoots at but turns very slowly. All this while costing more than the scout car. The Dingo is actually cheaper than the Bren Carrier by 20 MP.



The Wasp costs 400 MP and 15 fuel.

[MarKr]

I think I found a bug with the bren carrier with Boys AT rifle. It must have a ridiculously low accuracy modifier - I tried using one to attack some axis vehicles, and it missed 5 consecutive shots before I pulled it back. I've used it in three games, and I've never seen it hit anything. Always a miss.

I consider as most probable targets to attack are Bikes/Schwimms/HTs/Light armored cars - against all of these it has maccuracy multiplier x1 (which means no change of basic accuracy) and basic accuracy at max range is about 35%. It has accuracy nerf against some moving targets (about -25%) but appart from that it should work corectly. Although in some recent game it seemed to me too that it misses quite often...maybe very bad luck to miss 5 times in a row?

[Wake]

If anything, the boys AT gun in the bren carrier should be more accurate than the infantry version since it's mounted on a vehicle, and thus steadier.