Vampire spotting poll

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How do you feel about luft Vampire truck (and RAF triangulation)?

It breaks the mechanics of spotting and ambushes, should be removed.
3
33%
I like it when playing Luft and it should stay
1
11%
I don't mind it when playing against luft and it should stay
5
56%
I don't know what Vampire is and what it does
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 9

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Devilfish
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Vampire spotting poll

Post by Devilfish »

My opinon: Ambush, hidden units and spotting is one of the fundamental mechanics of the game/mod and this one just straight up breaks it. It doesn't invoke any gameplay mechanic either, it's a simple as place the unit, press button and you see all (including hidden) enemy units in vast radius.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by mofetagalactica »

Devilfish wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 15:35
My opinon: Ambush, hidden units and spotting is one of the fundamental mechanics of the game/mod and this one just straight up breaks it. It doesn't invoke any gameplay mechanic either, it's a simple as place the unit, press button and you see all (including hidden) enemy units in vast radius.
Worst than only that, it also steals resources from the enemy sector LOL

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Devilfish
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Devilfish »

ye know, but didn't want that to mix in this topic, just out of curiosity, anybody got an idea how much does it actually steals?
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Diablo
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Diablo »

Maybe have the detection ability cost muni, reveal enemy units just for certain time and then go into cooldown?

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

RAF triangular works pretty much the same way... And i personally don't mind the triangular, neither the Vampire.
Although that i would suggest to lower its detection radius.. and probably the radius should be visible on the map for the player who uses it.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

Devilfish wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 16:50
ye know, but didn't want that to mix in this topic, just out of curiosity, anybody got an idea how much does it actually steals?
thats complicate. But you can read it on coh wiki.

If you put it on an enemie sector it just takes half of this sector. If this sector is connected to another sector that got captured after the vampire was placed on the first sector, it then also steals from that.


Like when your enemie has 10 sectors and you put it on one of them, then neutralize the other 9 sectors which then get taken again by the enemie and are connected to the one the vampire sits on, it does steal from the others as well.


Something like that when i remember correctly. So it might make sense to put it on a huge enemie sector, then drop fallis all over the map to just neutralize some areas, let enemie recap them and you still take away ressources from these sectors.

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MarKr
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by MarKr »

Devilfish wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 16:50
ye know, but didn't want that to mix in this topic, just out of curiosity, anybody got an idea how much does it actually steals?
As Warhawks said, it is kinda complicated.
The game remebers in what order you captured points. 1st is always your HQ sector, whatever sector you cap 2nd is number two (even if it is not connected), whatever you cap 3rd is number three etc. I think this is calles "supply chain" in the game.
If your opponent caps your sector "two" then your sector "three" becomes "two", sector "four" becomes "three" (basically each sector drops by one number in the supply chain). If you recap the sector back, it is now last in the chain because it was capped the last.

Vampire HT steals 50% of resources from the sector it is deployed in. Any sectors that have "higher number" in the chain produce for the opponent only 50% resources but the other 50% is lost and nobody gets it. So you get half of resources from one sector, no matter how many more sectors are there further in the chain but the opponents lose 50% from the sector the Vampire is in and also 50% from any subsequent sector in the chain.
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Devilfish
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Devilfish »

Can you guys elaborate on your answers please? Why don't you mind it when playing against luft and how do you accommodate? Are you willingly putting your spotters further back? Or you just keep replacing them relentlessly? What about laying ambushes? Do you abandon them completely, or do you just hope luft player doesn't use vampire in that given area or if does, forgets about them? How do you justify such a special, powerful tool for a single doctrine in the entire mod?
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Devilfish wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 12:06
Can you guys elaborate on your answers please? Why don't you mind it when playing against luft and how do you accommodate? Are you willingly putting your spotters further back? Or you just keep replacing them relentlessly? What about laying ambushes? Do you abandon them completely, or do you just hope luft player doesn't use vampire in that given area or if does, forgets about them? How do you justify such a special, powerful tool for a single doctrine in the entire mod?
it isn't available only for one doctrine in the entire mod.. as mentioned before, RAF doc has something similar.
in my personal opinion, these tools aren't really considered like "cheating" but more of spying tools.. and that's pretty OK in a war.

Thus, i stand on the side that this unit shouldn't be removed or have its features altered.

However, i also wouldn't be against tweaking it a bit.. for example; lowering the detection radius, while marking the radius with a circle on the map.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 12:40






it isn't available only for one doctrine in the entire mod.. as mentioned before, RAF doc has something similar.
in my personal opinion, these tools aren't really considered like "cheating" but more of spying tools.. and that's pretty OK in a war.

Thus, i stand on the side that this unit shouldn't be removed or have its features altered.

However, i also wouldn't be against tweaking it a bit.. for example; lowering the detection radius, while marking the radius with a circle on the map.

Vampire is plain maphack with massive detection range. And even if only one doc has it, in 3 vs and 4 vs 4 everyone profits from it. And its much saver than spotters bc you can place is basically behind your lines and still see everything+ all ambushes.


I would remove it.

Radio triangulation is far different from that as you must land commandos everywhere and place them smart. Vampire just has to move together with your army. There is no time and effort spended in getting the maphack working.


I would try to figure out what kind of abilties it could provide to friendly units. Idk, like when it moves together with your luft command squad, your command squad can call in stuka as close air support without need of getting any kind of veteran level to your command unit.
It would function like a communication tool between airplanes and infantry. Kind of that.


Perhaps it could also get some sort of intelligence capabilities, but it shouldnt maphack the way it does.

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Devilfish
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Devilfish »

I intentionally did not bother to drag RAF triangulation in here, because it's incomparable in real scenario. It's so heavily dependent on the map and circumstances, and even with the best possible scenario, your only option really is to fly a recon plane to remove FOG, drop a glider in the corner/end of the map, set up radio and then either retreat or sneak up behind the enemy lines, with very high risk of losing the unit. Now experience player would know at this point, that the only reason one would do this it to set up radio, so he can just send bike/schwimm to destroy it. That's the reason why nobody uses this in 99 out of 100 games.

Tiger, I'm not really sure what you meant to say with that sentence. "it's ok in war", "spying tool" is rather an explanation regarding immersion not gameplay. So if you or other players could elaborate in a sense of my previous post, that would be greatly appreciated.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

i would say that the only problem with Vampire, is the huge detection radius.. but if that gets lower to a believable degree as suggested; then it would be absolutely mediocre unit.. plus, the resource stealing feature is only do-able when the Vampire is activated on an enemy territory; which isn't really possible in most maps without getting revealed.

i think the current detection radius is more than 100 or so.. whereas, it shouldn't be more than 80 range in my opinion.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 14:00
i would say that the only problem with Vampire, is the huge detection radius.. but if that gets lower to a believable degree as suggested; then it would be absolutely mediocre unit.. plus, the resource stealing feature is only do-able when the Vampire is activated on an enemy territory; which isn't really possible in most maps without getting revealed.
depends. But when i think about maps like rosmalen or when playing 1 vs 1 on 2 vs 2 maps, its easily doable when you build it early enough. And even later on. There are many exposed sides to steal res from.


i think the current detection radius is more than 100 or so.. whereas, it shouldn't be more than 80 range in my opinion.
which still makes you literally ambush immune.


I would give it a new role. Being some sort of communication relay between inf and air support or something like that. Or units nearby simply get a larger vision range and the officer can call in stuka right away when staying close to it. That would already be huge thing.

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MarKr
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by MarKr »

Devilfish wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 15:35
press button and you see all (including hidden) enemy units in vast radius.
I would just like to point out that it reveals infantry only, not AT guns or TDs in ambush mode.

Anyway - in vCoH it had detection range of 80 and it was possible to reveal it with any unit when it got within the range of 15 from Vampire. In BK mod it was buffed so that the detection range is 120 and the vehicle can be discovered at range of 8.

To be honest, I would rather avoid removing a unit unless it is absolutely necessary so I would go for applying some nerfs - for start, lowering the enemy detection back to 80 and the unit reveal range to 15 (so it is easier to find). I would also limit it to 1 at a time so that a player needs to decide where to strategicaly place it to gain the most of it.
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Devilfish
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Devilfish »

One can't say if it's a mediocre unit, because it's alone in its category, there's nothing to compare it to.

Let me explain again. Hidden/camoed units is one of the core gameplay mechanics, that is available to all factions and all doctrines. AT guns, AT squads, spotters, snipers, mgs and more are available to everybody and service several purposes. Make opponent hesitant to attack, because AT gun can be hidden there. Make it harder to counter mg protecting an area, because you can't tell for sure where it is. Your spotters giving you an insight about enemy frontline as well as enemy spotters doing the same on you.

There are various counters, recon units, planes, flanking, baiting with cheap units, etc. etc. But vampire truck is literally just place it in a safe spot, push the button and all hidden units are revealed. Zero gameplay mechanic behind it, zero trade-off, no downside. Can anyone please give me any real argument how does such a unit provided to a single doc make any sense in the concept explained above?

Edit: I think it picks up at guns as well, but need to check that in game.
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Devilfish
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Devilfish »

@Mark

Are you hesitant to remove it because you don't want to strip the mod of "content"?

In any case, limiting it to one is a good idea, but I think it needs be turned into timed and payed ability. This way, you can at least use it as a tool for specific reason for instance,executing an assault, instead of having a permanent and free overview of opponents hidden forces.
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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

MarKr wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 14:28
Devilfish wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 15:35
press button and you see all (including hidden) enemy units in vast radius.
I would just like to point out that it reveals infantry only, not AT guns or TDs in ambush mode.

Anyway - in vCoH it had detection range of 80 and it was possible to reveal it with any unit when it got within the range of 15 from Vampire. In BK mod it was buffed so that the detection range is 120 and the vehicle can be discovered at range of 8.

To be honest, I would rather avoid removing a unit unless it is absolutely necessary so I would go for applying some nerfs - for start, lowering the enemy detection back to 80 and the unit reveal range to 15 (so it is easier to find). I would also limit it to 1 at a time so that a player needs to decide where to strategicaly place it to gain the most of it.
+1
Fair to read.

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sgtToni95
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by sgtToni95 »

What about making its abilities more similar to how dingo gets his abilities? I mean, once you built it, you either upgrade it to be an unit detection device, or you upgrade it to be a resources leech.

As default it would just have binoculars and camo.

I agree about increasing the reveal range, not sure about decreasing the detection range for cloaked units, or at least we could try with a tinyer reduction first. I honestly find it a lot easier to place radio triangulation with marine commandos now, they can build radio station while hidden so it got a bit easier now. Can't remember if SAS can build it too.

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MarKr
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by MarKr »

Would anyone really go for the resource stealing upgrade? Sneaking the vehicle into enemy territory behind lines (where it is most useful) is hard and the chance of detection are very high. If you place the HT into a sector that is right to yours, then you might as well just cap the sector right away and get the full resources from it instead of just 50%.

It doesn't feel like resource option would be used too often if it is a permanent decision between upgrade A or B.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by Warhawks97 »

And what about having this unit as some sort of communication relay?

Like improving certain units arround it, providing them with something. Idk. I mean such units are actually not there for spying, but to improve communications.


One thing would be that it can be placed on friendly sector and improving this. Like hidden units only in this sector gets revealed (at least on map) while improving line of sight for all friendly units inside of this territory as well as improving the ammount of ressource this territory gives. Not as much as if its upgraded, but therefore it wont show the enemie (so they wont aim the Listening post for example).

I would give it some sort of friendly sector boosting by improving communication and stuff for all units within this sector and keeping the friendly sector clean from any enemie subversion attempts.

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sgtToni95
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Re: Vampire spotting poll

Post by sgtToni95 »

MarKr wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 11:44
Would anyone really go for the resource stealing upgrade? Sneaking the vehicle into enemy territory behind lines (where it is most useful) is hard and the chance of detection are very high. If you place the HT into a sector that is right to yours, then you might as well just cap the sector right away and get the full resources from it instead of just 50%.

It doesn't feel like resource option would be used too often if it is a permanent decision between upgrade A or B.
Maybe keep the very small detection range with the res steal upgrade?

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