Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

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berse2212
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Joined: 03 Jun 2020, 16:47

Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by berse2212 »

Hello,

Disclaimer: I am more of an allies guy and rarely playing germans so this post maybe a bit biased.

However I feel like the super pershing is at a major disadvantage. Both takes cost more or less the same amount of mp and should be more or less equal. However the super pershing has no chance 1 vs. 1 against the jagttiger. The later has superior armor, weapons and range. The only chance for the super pershing is to outmaneuver the tiger however given the range and the most common maps played (mostly open) this is not really a possibility. If I try to compare them to fighting other units this is my result:

Jagdtiger:
- can fight any allies tank without even being at risk. Basically invalidates all allies tanks. If this tank is out on the field you cannot use any tanks (in his line of fire) as allies
- is not that strong vs infantry, but the HE shell can destroy a whole infantry blob. Even then infantry only can penetrate it from behind, so with support it's not really threatened by infantry
- Is weak vs. arty but only when being immobilized

Super Pershing:
- can be destroyed by a lot of german tanks: (Jagdpanzer VI, Panther, Tiger, Jagdpanther, Elefant, hell I have even seen a Panzer IV getting a lucky shot) so using it is always a risk.
- is good vs. infantry, but since allies have Shermans which are far superior doing it, this should not be his main role.
- is not that weak vs. arty, since it has a turret and still can fire when being immobilized, however if the arty continues to fire this the turret does not help. But Henshell just plain destroys it, everything needed is just vision.

All in all I feel like the super pershing is a bit expensive but this is not the target of my post. The absolute thing that makes the super pershing so much worse and in my opinion not viable at all is that it can only be called in once! I guess the reasoning behind this is because there only was one super pershing ever at war, but from balance perspective this is simply horrible.
Your pershing can be shot down at any moment eg. an ambushing jagdpanzer or just a simple henshell attack and that's it. Your best unit gone and never be seen again. The jagdtiger however can be called in again and again.
If I recall correctly in early iterations the jagdtiger also was a one time call in and that was completely fine. It can withstand massive attacks and if you can finally kill it as allies it's just devastating to see another one of these things rolling at you. Historically speaking this also would be fine since there weren't even a 100 tanks produced and leads to very rare numbers in one company.

tldr; All in all I just want to say that either both of these super tanks should be a one time call in or both an infinite call in. (Also consider making the super pershing a little cheaper, maybe 1500 mp like the elefant since it's less strong)

Also this is my first post so this topic may already be discussed, but I did not find anything in recent posts. What are your opinions on this matter? Am I to biased because I mostly just saw one perspective of this or do you guys agree?

kwok
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Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by kwok »

Personally I disagree. Jagdtigers are so slow and has no turret, I can kill it planes, flanking inf, or artillery. It’s only good for killing tanks so the solution for me is to just not use tanks.

Of course this all changes with the doctrine reworks coming up. The amount of synergy the JT has with other new units now might be tough to deal with... but I haven’t seen enough games in the new version to truly say I believe it.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

berse2212 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 19:05
However I feel like the super pershing is at a major disadvantage.
i wholeheartedly disagree; the Super Pershing reloads faster, has the same range as the JagdTiger btw, and is better than the JT overall.
Also, on the upcoming Bk Mod version (which is now BETA) the JagdTiger will also cost fuel to build, in addition to the MP cost... just for info.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by Warhawks97 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 19:25
berse2212 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 19:05
However I feel like the super pershing is at a major disadvantage.
i wholeheartedly disagree; the Super Pershing reloads faster, has the same range as the JagdTiger btw, and is better than the JT overall.
Also, on the upcoming Bk Mod version (which is now BETA) the JagdTiger will also cost fuel to build, in addition to the MP cost... just for info.
+ if i understand the upcoming change correctly, PE Tank doc would have to go the Tank hunter line which leaves them more or less without any multirole tank as support.

Comparing units one to one is actually always missleading if people dont take them into context to their role and doctrine.

Diablo
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Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 22:40

Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by Diablo »

Over the time i've seen quite a few people complain about the SP being a one-time call-in.

I get it, within the context of the US armor reward unit roster it makes sense: the Pershing Ace is an overall weaker choice, so the SP needs some disadvantage. Being a single tank per game fits from a historical perspective too.
Yet if you look at reward units in the larger picture, there is no other one that is single use. Not even in the stock units does this 'mechanic' make an appearance.

Maybe it's time to rethink that old decision?
Simple proposal: SP with infinite uses, but a really long cooldown. Say 15+ minutes. Maybe even tied to the SP dying (so 15 min after it's death). That way you get a window of attack / some time to regroup / a breather from US heavy armor incursions. Given the late game nature of the SP, it might still appear only once in quicker games. But in those longer, chewing gum back-and-forth rounds it would mean that losing your wildcard doesn't eternally remove your ability to safely kill big cats.

But those are just my two cents :p
Cheers

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by mofetagalactica »

It would be just better if it automaticly changes to getting pershing ace after SP is destroyed, reward choices are dumb.

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Walderschmidt
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Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by Walderschmidt »

I would agree with Figree.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

berse2212
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Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by berse2212 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 19:25
berse2212 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 19:05
However I feel like the super pershing is at a major disadvantage.
i wholeheartedly disagree; the Super Pershing reloads faster, has the same range as the JagdTiger btw, and is better than the JT overall.
Also, on the upcoming Bk Mod version (which is now BETA) the JagdTiger will also cost fuel to build, in addition to the MP cost... just for info.
Oh I did not know about the range thing, I always feel outranged.

The Fuel Costs will settle the price difference I wanted just finely it I guess. However I don't see any argument why the sp should be a one time call in.

Diablo wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 21:00
Over the time i've seen quite a few people complain about the SP being a one-time call-in.

Maybe it's time to rethink that old decision?
Simple proposal: SP with infinite uses, but a really long cooldown. Say 15+ minutes. Maybe even tied to the SP dying (so 15 min after it's death). That way you get a window of attack / some time to regroup / a breather from US heavy armor incursions. Given the late game nature of the SP, it might still appear only once in quicker games. But in those longer, chewing gum back-and-forth rounds it would mean that losing your wildcard doesn't eternally remove your ability to safely kill big cats.
I feel like a long cooldown would be a good solution. Maybe align it with elefant and jagdtiger call ins (I don't know there timer). I feel like this would make it more fair in terms of super heavy tanks.

kwok
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Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by kwok »

my biggest qualm about this right now is that axis just lost one of their best and maybe only reliable "counter" to the super pershing: the henshel patrol. It's not like axis has a one shot reliable instakill AT airstrike like allies, even a perfectly aimed strafe by the henshel is reliant on RNG to take out the super pershing. the patrol mitigated the RNG by sending multiple planes over. The super pershing, no matter how long the cooldown, has the durability to outlast any reasonable cooldown timer which makes it not a very good counter balancing lever. i really dont think this is a good solution.

you guys aren't wrong in that there isn't a very clear and obvious reason why some reward units exist, but changing it will cause balance issues that is too risky to do as we get closer to beta release.

Diablo
Posts: 42
Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 22:40

Re: Super Pershing vs. Jagdtiger

Post by Diablo »

You're right about the SP being able to last for a long time. Certainly until a cooldown has almost run out (if played cautiously, of course).

Is it -- by your knowledge -- at all possible to have a cooldown start after a unit dies?

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