[BETA] CW AT boys

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Krieger Blitzer
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[BETA] CW AT boys

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

i think CW AT boys shouldn't be available in all CW docs anymore.

CW build order of 2x AT boys, MG squad or Bren Carrier, 2x 51mm mortars, and Rifle section is nearly un-stoppable early game.
Add to this the 2pdr Daimler after just about 3 minutes into the game which can be deployed from HQ Glider too...
i think the 2pdr Daimler is already enough to 1-shot most Axis vehicles, it deals as much damage as 6pdr 57mm guns!
in addition to 50.cal on Staghounds and Recce as well.

So, i would suggest to make CW AT boys limited to 1 doc only, still not sure which doc though.

Sepp(esky)
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by Sepp(esky) »

Or just pushed back like wehr...

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CGarr
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by CGarr »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
14 May 2020, 03:15
i think CW AT boys shouldn't be available in all CW docs anymore.

CW build order of 2x AT boys, MG squad or Bren Carrier, 2x 51mm mortars, and Rifle section is nearly un-stoppable early game.
Add to this the 2pdr Daimler after just about 3 minutes into the game which can be deployed from HQ Glider too...
i think the 2pdr Daimler is already enough to 1-shot most Axis vehicles, it deals as much damage as 6pdr 57mm guns!
in addition to 50.cal on Staghounds and Recce as well.

So, i would suggest to make CW AT boys limited to 1 doc only, still not sure which doc though.
2pdr daimler cant upgrade to the 1-shot until after captain and it's pen is still pretty bad against anything with armor. It also suffers from the same issues that the M10 does in that while it does have a turret, you basically have to treat it like a casemate with slow aim time since the turret takes a year to rotate. Not to mention, that thing is also their only light AT option available before the 2nd truck other than the boys, so if you remove the boys you're stuck with either a daimler or a slow ass 6pdr AT gun, whereas PE has the little 37mm AT gun (which also has pretty good HE, which makes it on par with if not better than the boys). Removing boys AT squads or making them available later would just lead to being forced to gamble your ability to tech at a reasonable time every game because you don't have any cheap 37mm AT gun equivalent (unlike every doctrine on every other faction).

Light AT by faction (anything smaller than 50mm and available )
US: 37mm AT gun, AT jeep for armor, 50cal jeeps can be used as decent light AT if they dont build a 20mm/28mm car or light AT squad

Wehr: 37mm AT gun, light AT squad on blitz, 28mm HT on def doc (not sure on this one, i dont usually build it since 37mm is good enough), the 20mm tank thing blitz has in their light vehicle building can win head on and also counters inf

PE: 37mm AT gun, 28mm car can be built in your first building

CW: just daimler and boys

Removing boys from any of the docs makes no sense, and they aren't strong enough to warrant being pushed back. They need to be in a stationary mode to even have reasonable accuracy, they have 1 less man than the wehr light AT squad, they don't have grenades or anything like that (unlike wehr light AT squad), and they do about the same damage, if not less (dependent on RNG rolls). They are objectively worse, the only thing they have that the light AT squad doesn't is the ability to cloak, and that's just a crutch to make up for the fact that they can't hit shit if unless you put them in a stationary mode, where as the light AT squad can. Hell, the axis 37mm AT gun (which comes at the same time) is also arguably better since it has pretty good HE and can thus be used for dealing with inf/buildings. The US one has a canister that is good (although somewhat inconsistent in effectiveness), but no such early HE option (probably because a significant part of the axis meta involved using slow units or MG's in buildings, both of which get chew up by HE.

Sepp(esky)
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by Sepp(esky) »

CGarr wrote:
14 May 2020, 18:47
Removing boys from any of the docs makes no sense, and they aren't strong enough to warrant being pushed back. They need to be in a stationary mode to even have reasonable accuracy, they have 1 less man than the wehr light AT squad, they don't have grenades or anything like that (unlike wehr light AT squad), and they do about the same damage, if not less (dependent on RNG rolls). They are objectively worse, the only thing they have that the light AT squad doesn't is the ability to cloak, and that's just a crutch to make up for the fact that they can't hit shit if unless you put them in a stationary mode, where as the light AT squad can.
Wehr AT Rifles do not move and hit vehicles, if they do it's certainly not often. They are most effective holding inside a trench or building, no different than boys, except they don't cloak so they can't just be rushed to the front and hidden in wait, often my most success with wehr is at is when a vehicle is lured to give chase and simoly doesnt notice them, and depending on the unit, say early m8s or recces, a good player can usually back out and make at rifles chase over open ground....which never ends well...

I will agree the wehr at squad is strong, in that these dudes can hold their own against early game infantry if they have garrison...but that's about it. I think the additional cost in having to build t1, 240mp, and a fairly slow production time offsets the head on comparison. That effort to get to them means less units on the field.

On a large or spread out map a jeep and rifles can have a field day until they stumble out. If a jeep catches that first mg42 crew walking to the front it's gg in 5 mins without some serious work, since at rifles will not already be there. The schimm vs. Jeep debate elsewhere also ignored this reality. Early at boys stop axis in their tracks for doing the same recon/harrassment that good allies can do.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Sepp(esky) wrote:
14 May 2020, 19:20
Early at boys stop axis in their tracks for doing the same recon/harrassment that good allies can do.
Agreed.
CGarr wrote:
14 May 2020, 18:47
2pdr daimler cant upgrade to the 1-shot until after captain and it's pen is still pretty bad against anything with armor.
The basic damage of the 2pdr (40mm) on the Daimler is 200-325 while the basic damage of 6pdr (57mm) is around 375 max.
Axis 37mm guns are only 3mm less in size than the 2pdr but their damage is much less...

The 2pdr gun upgrade doesn't increase damage, but increases penetration.. with this upgrade, the 2pdr becomes as good as 6pdr in penetration.

Fact: the 2pdr on the Daimler can 1-shot Axis vehicles 95% of the times.. can also penetrate Pz4s effectively.
This, with the support of 2 AT rifle boys... it's often an early defeat to Axis already. Since they can't rush with vehicles, and also can't rush with inf because of the Rifle Section + MG or the Bren Carrier instead, Axis infantry at this point also can't stay behind cover due to the 51mm 2-inch mortars.

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MarKr
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by MarKr »

Just some data corrections:
The unupgraded Daimler gun deals 200-325 damage to tanks, while to heavy armored cars (puma-type vehicles) and Halftracks it deals 180-292.5 damage. These vehicles have either 310 or 315 HP so on average you need 2 hits to kill them.

Against light-armored cars (the scout car and 28mm car in PE - these have 280HP) it deals 140-227.5 damage so still two hits needed.

The damage against tanks is 200-325 but you first need to penetrate the tank and even against PIV F2 the chances are (point blank)50%/38%/27%/19%(max range) and these tanks have 636HP so on average need 2-3 shots to destroy them while they only need one hit to kill Daimlers. This is however against the F2, H/J versions are a lot better armored so the penetration chances are there lower.

However:
The Littlejohn upgrade for some reason DOES increase damage as well as penetration and accuracy.

With the upgraded weapon it will most often one-shot any armored car or halftrack.

The upgraded weapon still needs 2 hits against PIV F2 and the penetration is increased to 50%/46%/40%/35%. (Against "H" version it is 32%/29%/25%/22%)

It is on anyone's definition but I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Daimler penetrates "Pz4s effectively". I have to say the damage increase of the upgrade seems out of place and I wouldn't mind removing it.
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kwok
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by kwok »

If you remove AT Boys, what counter will CW have against shwimms and sct cars on low resource games?

I feel like it might be too much of a nerf to remove the unit outright. I think a big reason why they are so strong is because they don't have set up time and can shoot 360, similar to the AT squad in WM. But at the same time, in my opinion something like the bren or dingo is not really a strong AT option within the 25 fuel range (we are reintroducing fuel cost to officers btw).

Maybe a solution is to introduce a set up time to AT boys and maybe directional shooting like an HMG or other AT guns so that they can be flanked?

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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by sgtToni95 »

I think Daimler has enough counters to be dealt with, its armor is pretty weak. Having little john upgrade delayed to when it will have to face pz4s would be enough to make it more balanced i think. Axis have itself halftracks that can oneshot not only light vehicles, but also medium tanks, for a higher price but without upgrades needed.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

kwok wrote:
15 May 2020, 04:33
If you remove AT Boys, what counter will CW have against shwimms and sct cars on low resource games?

I feel like it might be too much of a nerf to remove the unit outright. I think a big reason why they are so strong is because they don't have set up time and can shoot 360, similar to the AT squad in WM. But at the same time, in my opinion something like the bren or dingo is not really a strong AT option within the 25 fuel range (we are reintroducing fuel cost to officers btw).

Maybe a solution is to introduce a set up time to AT boys and maybe directional shooting like an HMG or other AT guns so that they can be flanked?
You see.. the WH AT rifle squad is now limited to 1 doc, has less range, can't camo and load-out nerfed. So ya, maybe a similar nerf to CW AT boys might work.. not necessarily a limit to 1 doc as well, as i agree with your approach... Maybe keep them in all docs but then they could work differently, here is what i think;

- They won't be able to fire unless static mode is activated, with a setup time and dismantle time too.
- Also when in static mode, there would be a firing arc.. as you say, like AT guns.

They would be still better than AT guns in terms of mobility.

However, if the unit was found to be useless after such changes, maybe they could be buffed in static mode then.. so that they become more accurate and higher damage perhaps.

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Warhawks97
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by Warhawks97 »

I always supported a removal of current AT rifles or at least a rework so that they dont act like a 360 degree fire arc AT gun.

kwok wrote:
15 May 2020, 04:33
If you remove AT Boys, what counter will CW have against shwimms and sct cars on low resource games?
What if CW could build naked 40 mm bofors earlier so that they can defend a fix point? Just a thought. Or 57 mm right away.
Or keep the Boys AT but also available as upgrade to their basic inf. So the ammount of possible AT rifles could make it up if necessary and if threaten by car rushes.
I feel like it might be too much of a nerf to remove the unit outright. I think a big reason why they are so strong is because they don't have set up time and can shoot 360, similar to the AT squad in WM. But at the same time, in my opinion something like the bren or dingo is not really a strong AT option within the 25 fuel range (we are reintroducing fuel cost to officers btw).

Maybe a solution is to introduce a set up time to AT boys and maybe directional shooting like an HMG or other AT guns so that they can be flanked?
Set up times would be a good thing to begin with already. Wouldnt have to take as long as HMG´s, but at least a small one.

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CGarr
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by CGarr »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
15 May 2020, 09:00
kwok wrote:
15 May 2020, 04:33
If you remove AT Boys, what counter will CW have against shwimms and sct cars on low resource games?

I feel like it might be too much of a nerf to remove the unit outright. I think a big reason why they are so strong is because they don't have set up time and can shoot 360, similar to the AT squad in WM. But at the same time, in my opinion something like the bren or dingo is not really a strong AT option within the 25 fuel range (we are reintroducing fuel cost to officers btw).

Maybe a solution is to introduce a set up time to AT boys and maybe directional shooting like an HMG or other AT guns so that they can be flanked?
You see.. the WH AT rifle squad is now limited to 1 doc, has less range, can't camo and load-out nerfed. So ya, maybe a similar nerf to CW AT boys might work.. not necessarily a limit to 1 doc as well, as i agree with your approach... Maybe keep them in all docs but then they could work differently, here is what i think;

- They won't be able to fire unless static mode is activated, with a setup time and dismantle time too.
- Also when in static mode, there would be a firing arc.. as you say, like AT guns.

They would be still better than AT guns in terms of mobility.

However, if the unit was found to be useless after such changes, maybe they could be buffed in static mode then.. so that they become more accurate and higher damage perhaps.
I agree on this solution. They're pretty shit outside of static mode anyways unless you're luck so it wouldn't be too big of a deal for the CW player assuming their rotation time isn't crazy long once they're in static mode, as having to manually rotate them would be enough of a nerf on its own.

On a side-note, I wouldn't be against having the WH light AT squad functioning similarly and being made available in the inf building with no pre-requisites, especially if they were made slightly cheaper and lost the stupid SMGs that every support inf unit in BK seems to have for some reason.

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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by kwok »

CGarr wrote:
15 May 2020, 19:54

... the stupid SMGs that every support inf unit in BK seems to have for some reason.
[joke]
Lol, what's the matter? You don't like my assault squad that carries a giant gun that it doesn't use while assaulting? Fun BK fact, when the gun is picked up it changes weapon type so that it's basically used as a bat. That's why when you close distance with a walking MG or mortar squad, units die like flies around it. It's not the smg's... it's the "getting clubbed by a metallic tube"
[/joke]

jokes aside, that's there to prevent flanking inf... ironic i know... but i've gotten push back when i asked to remove it.

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CGarr
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by CGarr »

kwok wrote:
15 May 2020, 23:59
CGarr wrote:
15 May 2020, 19:54

... the stupid SMGs that every support inf unit in BK seems to have for some reason.
[joke]
Lol, what's the matter? You don't like my assault squad that carries a giant gun that it doesn't use while assaulting? Fun BK fact, when the gun is picked up it changes weapon type so that it's basically used as a bat. That's why when you close distance with a walking MG or mortar squad, units die like flies around it. It's not the smg's... it's the "getting clubbed by a metallic tube"
[/joke]

jokes aside, that's there to prevent flanking inf... ironic i know... but i've gotten push back when i asked to remove it.
I mean I didn't make this thread but if we're going to make dumb comparisons between boys AT squads and the wehr light AT squad, its worth bringing up, and naturally the points apply to other support inf that have SMG's when they shouldn't.

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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by kwok »

Yeah I was just making a joke because as a player I feel that very nuanced pain and generally agree with you. I’ve definitely gave and have been given smg assaults from support weapon teams. I think it’s dumb but also don’t care enough to say anything about it.

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CGarr
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by CGarr »

kwok wrote:
18 May 2020, 18:30
Yeah I was just making a joke because as a player I feel that very nuanced pain and generally agree with you. I’ve definitely gave and have been given smg assaults from support weapon teams. I think it’s dumb but also don’t care enough to say anything about it.
Speaking of support inf's SMG's being obnoxious, here's a replay with an MG42's ammo bearers just melting a full health flanking jeep with their MP40's.
8p_berlin_1945.2020-05-18.19-07-27.rec
(4.62 MiB) Not downloaded yet

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Warhawks97
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Re: [BETA] CW AT boys

Post by Warhawks97 »

CGarr wrote:
19 May 2020, 18:08
kwok wrote:
18 May 2020, 18:30
Yeah I was just making a joke because as a player I feel that very nuanced pain and generally agree with you. I’ve definitely gave and have been given smg assaults from support weapon teams. I think it’s dumb but also don’t care enough to say anything about it.
Speaking of support inf's SMG's being obnoxious, here's a replay with an MG42's ammo bearers just melting a full health flanking jeep with their MP40's.

8p_berlin_1945.2020-05-18.19-07-27.rec
Fun fact:

In the past we added Grease guns to US HMG´s so that they cant get wiped and insta rushed just like that by a schwimm and to make it even between axis (which always had Mp40 and kicking jeeps asses when they got too close) and allies.

At the end i dont really care what weapons the guys will held. In just has to be universal to all factions.

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