Hotchkiss in the Beta

[kwok]

Discuss the Hotchkiss in the Panzer Support doc here

[CGarr]

I think I've said enough about my thoughts on the matter, but for the sake of organization, I'll summarize my thoughts on the unit here.

1. Personally, the rocket hotchkiss just feels kind of unneccessary in this doc. PS doc isn't lacking in direct firepower so it doesn't need good blanket arty to compensate. A grille or Wespe would make much more sense, as they'd actually have a unique purpose in the doc since they'd allow for some form of counter-arty, although I think the grille firing more than one shot per volley seems unncessecary and should be limited back to one shot with a cheaper barrage cost. The wespe similarly should have much less spread if it gets moved to this doc, instead pounding multiple shots into one spot to get a similar effect to the grille (trading initial damage for more overall damage per barrage in that spot). Even without change to the wespe, it still makes more sensethan the rocket hotchkiss though.

2. I don't really think the hotchkiss is a bad unit, but in some ways it is poorly implemented. I forgot who mentioned the idea, but someone else suggested raising the firing arc to make it less obnoxious to play against, as with the current arc, the allied player has little time to react, especially when you consider how effective the rockets are when they land. This alongside the cheap cost of the unit in terms of MP leads to multiple being easily built and just endlessly firing instakill barrages with nothing the allied player can do in terms of damage control. The calliope at least costs a ton of MP (and I think has a unit cap of 1, correct me if i'm wrong).

3. The rocket hotchkiss would actually make more sense on scorched Earth, as it works well as a cheap and quick to obtain means of blanket arty, which suits SE doc since the doc's playstyle revolves around being able to survive with relatively fragile units that do a shit ton of damge, both through direct and indirect means. They also already have the hummel for dedicated counter arty / concentrated fire, so the wespe seems a bit out of place and the rocket hotchkiss would be more fitting in its place as a general purpose arty unit due to its wider spread and ability to better limit the enemy player's access to parts of the battlefield.

4. The direct fire HE is useless, I'm not sure if it's bugged or just extremely weak but every time I've use it, the shot was indistinguishable from the normal shots in terms of effectiveness. I think the unit would be better suited to fighting exclusively vehicles and early armor anyways, and personally I feel that the gun upgrade from vanilla should be reimplemented so that this doc has a really good means of dealing with light tanks, especially considering its cost relative to how it performs in comparison to units like the chaffee in an AT role.

5. The barrel upgrade would be welcome (possibly instead being worked into a means of keeping the unit relevant against later available tanks in terms of pen), and a rapid fire position would make sense since it is far too slow to do the sort of aggressive poking/flanking that other options are capable of. Lastly, I think having the 50mm puma itself as a reward unit (one of the few cases where this system kinda makes sense since the PE light vehicle building UI is cluttered) would be nice if you want something faster but with a slower fire rate. Additionally, the surivability or damage of the hotchkiss should be improved to some degree, as it currently dies very easily to other light tanks / vehicles and it doesn't have the direct firepower to compensate, so unless this thing is just meant to be useless as anything other than an arty platform, it needs a buff in that regard.

[Krieger Blitzer]

someone else suggested raising the firing arc to make it less obnoxious to play against, as with the current arc, the allied player has little time to react, especially when you consider how effective the rockets are when they land.

i would go against this suggestion... As i think it's totally fine how the rockets are now being fired in a volley, but i agree that Hotchkiss would make sense either in Def doc or SE doc and that Wespe, or Grille would be better for TH doc.

[MarKr]

4. The direct fire HE is useless, I'm not sure if it's bugged or just extremely weak but every time I've use it, the shot was indistinguishable from the normal shots in terms of effectiveness.

It has basically same damage stats as the HE shots on 37mm HT in BK doctrine (which is in general regarded as a pretty good infantry killer, iirc). Was it maybe just a bad luck? I've seen its usage in replays where the shot managed to kill several soldiers in a squad multiple times. But it uses accuracy settings, so naturally I've also seen shots that missed and caused very little to no damage.

I feel that the gun upgrade from vanilla should be reimplemented so that this doc has a really good means of dealing with light tanks, especially considering its cost relative to how it performs in comparison to units like the chaffee in an AT role.

The barrel upgrade was never removed, actually, in BK mod the tank is built with the upgraded barrel already installed. From what I can see in the weapon files, it should penetrate Stuarts, Chaffees and Tetrarchs with every hit.

[CGarr]

4. The direct fire HE is useless, I'm not sure if it's bugged or just extremely weak but every time I've use it, the shot was indistinguishable from the normal shots in terms of effectiveness.

It has basically same damage stats as the HE shots on 37mm HT in BK doctrine (which is in general regarded as a pretty good infantry killer, iirc). Was it maybe just a bad luck? I've seen its usage in replays where the shot managed to kill several soldiers in a squad multiple times. But it uses accuracy settings, so naturally I've also seen shots that missed and caused very little to no damage.

I feel that the gun upgrade from vanilla should be reimplemented so that this doc has a really good means of dealing with light tanks, especially considering its cost relative to how it performs in comparison to units like the chaffee in an AT role.

The barrel upgrade was never removed, actually, in BK mod the tank is built with the upgraded barrel already installed. From what I can see in the weapon files, it should penetrate Stuarts, Chaffees and Tetrarchs with every hit.

Not sure what to say about the gun other than that it should be stronger against something, preferably armor since PE isn't lacking in anti inf. Right now its pretty much guaranteed to lose against any of those 3 tanks assuming they aren't preoccupied. If I'm not mistaken, it also costs more. As for the HE, maybe its just really bad luck for everyone I've seen use it (myself included) but I've never seen it kill more than a single model with the HE.

[Devilfish]

The problem of hotchkiss is that the damage and especially aoe against infantry is too high. So players abuse it as a no-skill way of causing heavy MP losses to allied opponents. Rocket jeep is similar, but it requires a lot more rng to kill an unit entirely (several direct hits) while the aoe of one-hit shots of hotchkiss are just crazy. Admittedly, it could be partially mitigated by playing bigger maps, but almost nobody wants that I swear :/

[kwok]

The problem of hotchkiss is that the damage and especially aoe against infantry is too high. So players abuse it as a no-skill way of causing heavy MP losses to allied opponents. Rocket jeep is similar, but it requires a lot more rng to kill an unit entirely (several direct hits) while the aoe of one-hit shots of hotchkiss are just crazy. Admittedly, it could be partially mitigated by playing bigger maps, but almost nobody wants that I swear :/

YES

[CGarr]

^ lol, agreed although tell that to the majority of the community @devilfish.

[Walderschmidt]

The problem of hotchkiss is that the damage and especially aoe against infantry is too high. So players abuse it as a no-skill way of causing heavy MP losses to allied opponents. Rocket jeep is similar, but it requires a lot more rng to kill an unit entirely (several direct hits) while the aoe of one-hit shots of hotchkiss are just crazy. Admittedly, it could be partially mitigated by playing bigger maps, but almost nobody wants that I swear :/

YES

YES