Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

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kwok
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Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

Post by kwok »

Discuss comparisons between the Allied tank tiers and Axis tank tiers here.

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CGarr
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Re: Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

Post by CGarr »

Not gonna lie, I still think the scope of this is too huge to really have any meaningful discussion. Axis armor comes later and costs more, but much of their late game armor is multi-role with both good HE, decent roof gunners, very good guns, and pretty good armor. I really don't understand why people care so much about armor as a talking point for how useful a unit is, everything is pretty easily killable in this mod if you dedicate yourself to killing it. The units whose durability could be considered problematic are generally the ones with really good recieved accuracy modifiers like hetzers, or whose durability is so ridiculously high relative to their cost that they become spammable mini-heavies (armor doc shermans, p4H's). As for the axis tanks that aren't multi-role, they are generally either cheap or so good in their specialization that their cost is well justified (nashorn, ostwind, and jpz4/70 are good examples of this).

With allied armor, you're also generally expecting to lose a lot of your units even with good preservation, as there are a lot of units that rely heavily on RNG to do their job (US tank destroyers being a good example) and the majority of allied units have pretty mediocre armor, only the Jumbo and churchill are really anything to worry about not penning on a regular basis with a decent axis gun (37mm or greater), and both of those units get eaten alive by Axis heavies tanks/TD's. In the end, your costs end up being similar, slightly skewed in allied favor to make up for the increased micro tax of having to micro and maintain a force that is generally twice the size of it's axis competitor if that axis player doesn't choose to just use their more cost effective units instead of rushing heavies.

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Walderschmidt
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Re: Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

Post by Walderschmidt »

Image

Look at the stats organized this way would clarify a few things if it didn't leave out information, like the fact that to get a Pershing, as allies, one must spend a further 75 fuel upgrading the motorpool (which means no tanks coming out of it).

I suspect that allies teching up is faster (upgrades to pay for, wait to activate, in addition to waiting for buildings) and costs less more than the pictures shows, especially given that allied units cost less in general than Axis ones and therefore contribute to allied teching costs being way less.

I just need to do homework on it.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

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Walderschmidt
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Re: Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

Post by Walderschmidt »

For reference, in my last 2v2 replay I posted with Kwok & I v. Sgt. Barnes and Mencius, I was able to get my first Sherman out at the 8 min 43 s mark before either Axis player had even built a T3 building, let alone T4.

The allies can build all the way to T3 in a conventional "high" res. game whereas Axis have to wait between time + res. cost to get to T3 and more so for T4.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

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CGarr
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Re: Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

Post by CGarr »

You didn't add the additional 2 tiers of upgraded production in the tank depot to the US totals. Additionally, the tank depot and panzer factory come out at the exact same time assuming no difference in income. However, US only has access to basic shermans and m10/m18 until you get the supply yard and whatever other additional tech costs are necessary for the tank you are trying to build (upgun shermans need supply yard, m36 needs first up-prod, pershing needs second). With the panzer factory, wehr has immediate access to P4 F2, P4 F1, P3, and japgdpanzer IV (assuming they unlocked the latter in doc tree). I think def doc has access to a marder as well but I might be wrong. Wehr will win tank rushes.

PE is a bit of a special case in that they get armor significantly later but they also have a really good early game and can easily get more map control early on to make up for it. Brits also come a bit later than US, but their early game is also pretty good (although they will likely have a bit less map control by virtue of having less units). Their early armor options make up for this by being on the stronger side, although the P4 F2 is still arguably the best tank on the field until something with a 90mm/17 pdr hits the field, mainly due its tremendous cost efficiency (long barrel 75mm on an armored 35-40 fuel tank is pretty damn strong, spamming them is one of the few ways I can actually fight off Kwok despite being worse than him).

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Walderschmidt
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Re: Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

Post by Walderschmidt »

CGarr wrote:
14 May 2020, 01:28
You didn't add the additional 2 tiers of upgraded production in the tank depot to the US totals. Additionally, the tank depot and panzer factory come out at the exact same time assuming no difference in income. However, US only has access to basic shermans and m10/m18 until you get the supply yard and whatever other additional tech costs are necessary for the tank you are trying to build (upgun shermans need supply yard, m36 needs first up-prod, pershing needs second). With the panzer factory, wehr has immediate access to P4 F2, P4 F1, P3, and japgdpanzer IV (assuming they unlocked the latter in doc tree). I think def doc has access to a marder as well but I might be wrong. Wehr will win tank rushes.

PE is a bit of a special case in that they get armor significantly later but they also have a really good early game and can easily get more map control early on to make up for it. Brits also come a bit later than US, but their early game is also pretty good (although they will likely have a bit less map control by virtue of having less units). Their early armor options make up for this by being on the stronger side, although the P4 F2 is still arguably the best tank on the field until something with a 90mm/17 pdr hits the field, mainly due its tremendous cost efficiency (long barrel 75mm on an armored 35-40 fuel tank is pretty damn strong, spamming them is one of the few ways I can actually fight off Kwok despite being worse than him).
I didn't make the graphic; I'm making an excel sheet that goes into the exact numbers. That was a flaw I knew about which is part of why I'm diving into the numbers.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

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Devilfish
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Re: Allied Tank Tiering vs Axis Tank Tiering

Post by Devilfish »

Real numbers (spreadsheet attached):
US (MP, Fuel)
Total for first tanks 925 130
Total for first tanks with MG 1025 160
Total for 76 1075 170
Total for 76 with MG 1175 200
Total for Jackson 1075 205
Total for Pershing 1075 245
Total for pimped easy8 1775 265

WH (MP, Fuel)
Total first tank 550 80
Total pz4 tanks 875 130
Total first heavy tank 1250 230
Total late heavy tank 1250 305
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bk_tech_cost.xlsx
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