RAF & RE

[Krieger Blitzer]

i think those 2 doctrines are the most lethal at the moment, given they weren't modified at all.. they are miles away ahead, in comparsion to the very slow paced style of most other reworked doctrines.

Though, i don't think many changes are required.. specifically for RAF doc.

Just the tierring up needs to be slowed down a bit, and 95mm Cromwell has to find its way back to RAF doc.
SAS squads however, need to be tuned.. no longer rambo units.

They should cost less, with Bren LMGs removed (so only Bazookas & Thompsons) or so.

RE doctrine should be able to deploy Churchill Vii (without flamethrowers) and the price shouldn't be low.
And maybe a captured Panther.D should be reward to the Croc Churchill.

That's briefly what i think... i have 2 BETA games vs Kwok (1vs1) me as Brits which i will post later.

[Redgaarden]

the 95mm cormwell is like the best arty, just give them the 25p emplaced artillery, then they can pretend to do something with artillery.

Does the Panther.D have a target table against german tanks? I think it just had a default 100% pen chance vs everything?

Churchill 7 sounds nice, some expendable jumbo. What role will it fill? Why shouldn't the price be low? it's just a worse jumbo 75

I thought SAS sucked balls. Didn't know that they were so great, they kinda lost to my PG with g43 in the armor support doctrine.

[kwok]

In my opinion and based on games not just with Tiger but still heavily illustrated in the games with Tiger, the problem with Brits being OP is not because of doctrines but these changes:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3242

I'll repeat myself again:

My initial thoughts as a whole is a lot of these changes are removing tech blockers, effectively making a lot of units earlier. That being said, would brits end up constantly being "one step ahead" and bully out other factions that way? How do you balance that shift?

This warning was basically ignored. This is essentially what happened and in games with Tiger, he beat me without even using anything doctrine specific. I've beaten players in the same way. For now, the solution will be to increase fuel costs of tiering up for brits. Other ideas I would say don't have to do with reworking doctrines but just adding other flavors to it. They will likely not be priority based on our original intent of the reworks: de-specializing doctrines from a capability stand point NOT a unit availability standpoint.

[idliketoplaybetter]

[/quote] he beat me without even using anything doctrine specific. [/quote]

I think that happened the same way when we played 1v1 too. More to say, it even felt wrong to play brits, like doctrinal units are rather useless, unless you want/need just bombing or arty and that you just cant build "right on" already.

Imo, RAF doctrine was and still the worst, or rather it is the most boring doc to play. It is in a way even over too effective in a way of CPteching and with new brit build order meta, it feels even more.
I dislike the tendency to push people play on High resourses, I'd rather see something reworked in the middle, between low and high.

[CGarr]

In my opinion and based on games not just with Tiger but still heavily illustrated in the games with Tiger, the problem with Brits being OP is not because of doctrines but these changes:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3242

I'll repeat myself again:

My initial thoughts as a whole is a lot of these changes are removing tech blockers, effectively making a lot of units earlier. That being said, would brits end up constantly being "one step ahead" and bully out other factions that way? How do you balance that shift?

This warning was basically ignored. This is essentially what happened and in games with Tiger, he beat me without even using anything doctrine specific. I've beaten players in the same way. For now, the solution will be to increase fuel costs of tiering up for brits. Other ideas I would say don't have to do with reworking doctrines but just adding other flavors to it. They will likely not be priority based on our original intent of the reworks: de-specializing doctrines from a capability stand point NOT a unit availability standpoint.

Agreed on the fast teching being the reason brits are overperforming, don't really have much to add on how to balance it though since I'm not good enough with brit non-doctrinal units to really abuse it.

I do like the cost drop and weapon change suggestion tiger brought up for SAS, but I would say that rather than removing the bren as an option, the squad should instead get their weapons through weapon unlocks similar to other para units in the game. They should get 2 weapon upgrades, with bazooka and bren being the options available (so you can get 2 of one type or one of each). These should have a muni cost similar to how FG42's do, but the squad could be significantly cheaper as a result. Reinforce cost should stay the same.

Additionally, lee enfield rifles should be a free 3rd weapon upgrade choice that doesn't affect the other 2, replacing 4 of their SMG's with rifles so you have the option of specializing the squad for long range.

I also like the idea with adding beefier churchills and a captured panther, though there might be issues with adding those units due to lack of available models. I'd assume the panther could just use the same model with a different skin, but I may be wrong. The upgraded churchills could just be a different color on the same model (maybe a dark green or something instead of tan). I don't think RAF should get a 95 cromwell, that's a really good arty unit and that doc already has a ton of indirect firepower with the airstrikes.

[kwok]

One side note that I'd like to make. Can we split this topic? We've been doing so well in having really clear threads with focus which is letting us churn out iterations of the beta faster than usual patches. It really really really makes it difficult to keep track of ideas when the topic is just "RAF, RE" and having to read through every parallel conversation between each person.

[sgtToni95]

I think RAF just needed 95mm cromwell back to become an all rounded doc as you're reworking each one. Those few games i played on beta as brits, i was just confused by the diversity of units i could make. For example mortar halftrack is a bit too much for brits, even being capable of making every former doctrinal vehicle from 2nd truck is a bit too much.

One other thing i think is really gamebreaking ( and i'm going against my own interests as RAF lover by saying this) is having both 2 inches and daimler available in the first truck from the start. 2-inch and Daimler are imo the most cost-effective units brits can make in the current meta, i always make 2/3 of theese and i rebuild them even in late game when they're taken out because they're just so good. I've seen people making Achille rushes to take out wespes or hotchkiss behind enemy lines when you can get a better result with Daimlers with a higher chance of them coming back alive.
I need to re read carefully why brits tiering was reworked but i think with just theese units brits are a step ahead of others.

Edit: just went to read the tiering rework for brits topic. That happened when i wasn't really active so i missed it. I think the reasons of being too predictable in the early game wasn't enough for such a big rework. Tiering worked fine for brits related to other doctrines, and dingo already offered a viable alternative to an inf only start of the game. Now Brits are probably too good too soon to really be balanced. I missed other factions tiering rework (if there's been any) so i can't say things should be left as in the current version, but if it's possible i'd vote for it.