5.1.8c Luft Doc Updates

[kwok]

We noticed a lot of the players still use Fallshirmjägers like they were used formerly in the pre-rework patch, units that are instantly strong and elite on drop rather than a scaling unit that gets better over the game. The prices of the paratroopers, as well as some other units the community has identified as too expensive, so that it is a bit more forgiving for players still getting use to the patch. No performance changes were made as we still feel that the potential of the Fallshirmjägers have yet to be recognized by the community.

- Lowered the cost of Fallshirmjägers to 400MP (from 500MP)
- Fallshirmjägers are dropped with a Panzerschreck again
- Lowered the cost of Luftwaffe Pioneers to 300MP (from 360MP)
- Lowered the Wirblewind cost to 400MP 40F (from 500MP 55F)

[Rubytooth_UA]

I am trully Luftwaffe player on 100%. I have played a hundreds battles for axis before BK mod had born but the biggest fun I have when play Luft for sure. I am still scary that all is true by this link viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3450
That is nerf - the Panther D has a gold price of 880MP 130F instead of 680MP 110F and my Hetzer will removed from doctrine. What we get in place of it? How to counter Shermans with HE and other stuff with wheals? Hetzers was good counters but only from the ambush, in the faced to faced mutchup they to weak.
If we cut out the the best TH of Luft we need to add and alternative. Any STUG with ambush ability is convenient. Even trophy M10 sounds good (btw this option is realy nice cose Luft has subversive activities).
Please take a look on the quotes - should I believe this numbers of nerfing?

Luftwaffe:
This is our first draft of the updated luft doctrine. Luft doctrine was identified as an already well rounded doctrine and required balance updates in order to keep in pace with other doctrine reworks. A lot of the ideas were born from a really old discussion that questioned doctrine design in the first place. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2904
A thread to discuss the new Luft rework to come soon (unless you start your own in which we ask to keep it focused, structured, and not a 10 paragraph rant)

- Removed the VT ability from the doctrine
- Changed the cost of the Panther D to 880MP 130F (from 680MP 110F)
- Removed the Hetzer/JPIV from the doctrine
- Added an option for Fallhsirms and Gebirgs to lay booby traps
- Removed Stuka Patrol
- Separated airstrike unlocks for straffing run and Stuka
- Henschel patrol transformed into a single Henschel sent in a specific direction

Units
Fallshirmjagers:
- Lowered the HP to 70 (from 80)
- Leader comes with FG42, rest of the squad with MP40
- Added FG42 as possible upgrade (75ammo for 2 weapons; can upgrade anywhere; possible 2x)
- Added a Panzerschreck upgrade (75 ammo for 1 weapon; requires unlock)
- Increased the unit cap to 3 (from 2)

Gebirgsjagers:
- Lowered the HP to 70 (from 80)
- Leader comes with Scoped G43, rest of the squad with Kar98
- Added Scoped G43 as possible upgrade (75ammo for 2 weapons; can upgrade anywhere; possible 1x)
- Added a LMG34 upgrade (75 ammo for 1 weapon; requires unlock)
- No longer come with defensive bonuses in cover
- Can use "Suppressive fire" ability when upgraded with LMG
- Increased the unit cap to 3 (from 2)

[idliketoplaybetter]

Shoud i believe that rest you nitpicked and ignored considered as buff though?

Like, luft infantry was never as cheap as it is now, though still Elite. They have shreks back basically, new officer squad, more snipers and so on.

You simply struggle to see above what you think is negative, before coming to such a loud conclusions, apparently.

[kwok]

I am trully Luftwaffe player on 100%. I have played a hundreds battles for axis before BK mod had born but the biggest fun I have when play Luft for sure. I am still scary that all is true by this link viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3450
That is nerf - the Panther D has a gold price of 880MP 130F instead of 680MP 110F and my Hetzer will removed from doctrine. What we get in place of it? How to counter Shermans with HE and other stuff with wheals? Hetzers was good counters but only from the ambush, in the faced to faced mutchup they to weak.
If we cut out the the best TH of Luft we need to add and alternative. Any STUG with ambush ability is convenient. Even trophy M10 sounds good (btw this option is realy nice cose Luft has subversvie activities).

THe updated panzer IV's made available for 1 CP, 75mm halftracks made available without any CP unlock, and 88 flak guns are more than enough to face HE shermans. They are intended to be more core units to the doctrine, staying more true to their historical inspirations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Falls ... %C3%B6ring

[Warhawks97]

400 MP for fallis? I dont know. Its almost as cheap 101st squad and cheaper than 82nd.

Stop inflating elite units. Darn, even the basic CW inf squad costs more. CW is going to get a big punishment now.

Also Wirbelwind for sale now instead of tweaking the damn quad 20 mm.
450/45 would have been an appropriate price i think along with quad 20 mm tweak.

[kwok]

Also Wirbelwind for sale now instead of tweaking the damn quad 20 mm.
450/45 would have been an appropriate price i think along with quad 20 mm tweak.

How about you respond to the post on the specific thread instead of just keep repeating “it should be this way” everywhere.

[TheUndying]

What was the reasoning behind dropping the Fallschirmjägers to 400 MP? Gebirgsjägers are 450 MP now and arguably less effective and versatile than the former. I'd switch those MP values, 400 for Gebirgs, 450 for Fallsch.

Other than that I see nothing worth changing. They feel strong. Like them a lot more than before, 2 squads max was so limiting.

[kwok]

What was the reasoning behind dropping the Fallschirmjägers to 400 MP? Gebirgsjägers are 450 MP now and arguably less effective and versatile than the former. I'd switch those MP values, 400 for Gebirgs, 450 for Fallsch.

Other than that I see nothing worth changing. They feel strong. Like them a lot more than before, 2 squads max was so limiting.

Basically constant complaining from the community....

Part of it is also because the utility once the unit is made available. MP40s definitely require more "skill" to use effectively than k98s. We will continue to balance it to where it needs to be, so if it's TOO cheap then we can change it.

[Mood]

I'd suggest making Luftpioneers retreat to Fallschirm Lehr captain instead of Haupsturmfuhrer.

[Warhawks97]

What was the reasoning behind dropping the Fallschirmjägers to 400 MP? Gebirgsjägers are 450 MP now and arguably less effective and versatile than the former. I'd switch those MP values, 400 for Gebirgs, 450 for Fallsch.

Other than that I see nothing worth changing. They feel strong. Like them a lot more than before, 2 squads max was so limiting.

Basically constant complaining from the community....

Part of it is also because the utility once the unit is made available. MP40s definitely require more "skill" to use effectively than k98s. We will continue to balance it to where it needs to be, so if it's TOO cheap then we can change it.

build and reinforce cost does not just reflect combat strenght but also the means of deployment. Even house spawning units cost 450 MP (even when normal build cost are cheaper). So alone this advantage which fallis have over gebis needs to be reflected in some ways.

[CGarr]

I definitely agree with the falls being too cheap relative to their effectiveness right now, but I'd rather see the shreck made available later rather than the squad being made more expensive. Then again, as Kwok said, there'd probably be a ton of whining about how luft is too hard to play now if they lost their early (and free) shrecks on top of all the other changes. Fausts are pretty much gauranteed to hit if you can close the gap and shrecks are basically shrecks with more range and a (small) chance to miss.

Gebis could definitely be cheaper with their loss of para reinforcement and the somewhat expensive weapon upgrades (costs for weapons are fine, I just mean the initial MP cost of the squad). Right now there isnt much reason to get them outside of needing the leig airdrop, a sniper would be cheaper for long range support and falls/PG's serve as an effective defensive screen on their own.

SMG's as a starting loadout is way more fitting for paras, so I'm a big fan of the new starting loadouts since it retains a lot of potential for encircling+wiping with fallsch (dropping behind and then closing on a position with SMG's from both sides, only really countered by 2+ MG's or a vehicle and the OP free shreck negates one of those counters) without being completely brainless since you need to close in really close, unlike the live version where falls can fight at any range stock. In this sense, having the cost as low as it is currently allows this kind of play to be possible without being too punishing, but it's definitely OP with the shrecks and there isn't really a good reason for shrecks to be avaialble for free, especially without even having to wait for the upgrade. The only reason i've heard at all to support having a free shreck on this squad is that people are unwilling to change their playstyle, so it's disappointing to see the dev team give in to that mentality. Honestly, I'm just going to ignore it and hope people are too scared to try the doc post-change to realize how strong it is, at least until the dev team decides to revisit the issue and remove the free shrecks on drop.

[CGarr]

I am trully Luftwaffe player on 100%. I have played a hundreds battles for axis before BK mod had born but the biggest fun I have when play Luft for sure. I am still scary that all is true by this link viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3450
That is nerf - the Panther D has a gold price of 880MP 130F instead of 680MP 110F and my Hetzer will removed from doctrine. What we get in place of it? How to counter Shermans with HE and other stuff with wheals? Hetzers was good counters but only from the ambush, in the faced to faced mutchup they to weak.
If we cut out the the best TH of Luft we need to add and alternative. Any STUG with ambush ability is convenient. Even trophy M10 sounds good (btw this option is realy nice cose Luft has subversvie activities).
Please take a look on the quotes - should I believe this numbers of nerfing?

Panzer 4 F2 kills HE shermans and anything on wheels with ease, 88 does the same, falls currently have a free rocket launcher on drop still (which is OP if you take into account their cost), 75mm AT car can kill tanks and vehicles easily, and normal AT guns still exist. If I remember correctly, the marder is also available and is functionally just a cheaper hetzer with less armor, although honestly right now you can kill pretty much anything by just building fallsch squads, panzer 4 F2's, and maybe a mortar HT to deal with AT guns so the panzer 4's can push in.

If you are still struggling against HE tanks and light vehicles as luft with all those options available, then it seems all those hundreds of games you played don't really mean much since I've seen someone with less than 30 games as luft do really well with this doc even after he had just picked up the DLC for the first time (@Echo).

[Rubytooth_UA]

I am trully Luftwaffe player on 100%. I have played a hundreds battles for axis before BK mod had born but the biggest fun I have when play Luft for sure. I am still scary that all is true by this link viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3450
That is nerf - the Panther D has a gold price of 880MP 130F instead of 680MP 110F and my Hetzer will removed from doctrine. What we get in place of it? How to counter Shermans with HE and other stuff with wheals? Hetzers was good counters but only from the ambush, in the faced to faced mutchup they to weak.
If we cut out the the best TH of Luft we need to add and alternative. Any STUG with ambush ability is convenient. Even trophy M10 sounds good (btw this option is realy nice cose Luft has subversvie activities).
Please take a look on the quotes - should I believe this numbers of nerfing?

Panzer 4 F2 kills HE shermans and anything on wheels with ease, 88 does the same, falls currently have a free rocket launcher on drop still (which is OP if you take into account their cost), 75mm AT car can kill tanks and vehicles easily, and normal AT guns still exist. If I remember correctly, the marder is also available and is functionally just a cheaper hetzer with less armor, although honestly right now you can kill pretty much anything by just building fallsch squads, panzer 4 F2's, and maybe a mortar HT to deal with AT guns so the panzer 4's can push in.

If you are still struggling against HE tanks and light vehicles as luft with all those options available, then it seems all those hundreds of games you played don't really mean much since I've seen someone with less than 30 games as luft do really well with this doc even after he had just picked up the DLC for the first time (@Echo).

The core message is not about how to kill Shermans - the idea is how possible to play without Hetzers and how to deal with expensive Panthers (880MP 130F) that worst then in axis. Pz IV F2 is not a solid solution - it's quite regular panzer who died vs M10 and M36 very fast. 88 Flaks are irrelevant in arty battles and used in def purposes. My opinion - deleting Hetzers from luft its a huge nerf. Does smbd agree with me? Even this replay shows how useful they are viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3548

[Warhawks97]

What i know for sure is that Fallis have fought alongside with stugs.

I could even think of making tank IV H/J´s available to more docs. Right now you get them in just two docs considering that these were the mainstay tank in german inventory and the main Tank IV versions.


But its quite a funny thing that people immediatly demand better (easy) anti tank support for their inf once they run into some tank opposition while AB doc (and inf) are (and were) left alone for years to struggle with their inf against super armored german tanks. Even now without hetzer and delayed schreck i would argue that luftwaffe has greater options to deal with annoying tanks as AB doc ever had and probably will ever have.

[Mantis]

I am OK with LUFT, no need tanks or hetzers when you have good infantry. I never play them.

[CGarr]

The core message is not about how to kill Shermans - the idea is how possible to play without Hetzers and how to deal with expensive Panthers (880MP 130F) that worst then in axis. Pz IV F2 is not a solid solution - it's quite regular panzer who died vs M10 and M36 very fast. 88 Flaks are irrelevant in arty battles and used in def purposes. My opinion - deleting Hetzers from luft its a huge nerf. Does smbd agree with me? Even this replay shows how useful they are viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3548

Nobody is arguing that hetzers aren't useful, they're a good unit but the doc really doesn't need them. You have infantry to kill TD's that are in ambush mode and the panzer 4 F2 easily kills anti inf units. Worst case, Panthers will usually bounce at least one shot against an M10 unless you're really unlucky and that's generally enough to close the distance and kill it. Against an m36, just push with multiple cheaper units. They fire slowly and don't have any anti inf. You've got plenty of options to kill aggresively used TD's since they become even more vulnerable to AT inf, AT guns, and your own tanks. Removing hetzers is a huge nerf, true, but its not uncalled for. The doc isn't exactly balanced in the live version of the game, the nerf is to bring it more in line with other docs.

You're also apparently just ignoring the fact that the inf are objectively stronger with their lower cost and the officer, so its not like the doctrine is getting way weaker. It's just being shifted more into an elite airborne style doc, similar to the other air docs. You still have tank support in the form of panzers and panthers, but this isnt an armor doc and it isn't lacking a tool to deal with heavy tanks, so having a good TD isnt nessecary. You have 88's if the enemy player goes for pershings and churchills get killed by panthers easily, especially after getting fausted. There is literally no reason to have the hetzer in this doc other than "I don't know how to micro inf or medium tanks properly".

In the beta, try playing US airborne against an equally skilled opponent if you still think luft is weak and post the games from that. Alternatively, play any doc against a good luft player and see how fast they can stomp you.