PE heavy SS squad

[CGarr]

Curious as to how people would feel about making this unit cheaper but replacing the shreck upgrade with an AT nade that is available from the start (H3 like grens). The squad is durable enough that it is absurdly easy to just walk up to anti-infantry specialized tanks and fire off a rocket without much consequence. Between this and their high anti inf performance, there isn't really a good way to kill these relative to their MP cost. Elite inf like SAS and royal marines trade evenly, and anything weaker than those 2 will trade worse in terms of MP. Snipers will get countersniped by the squad's own sniper, and armor will often have negligible effect. This leaves allied players with either slow-TTK or indirect options (50cals, quick vehicles with less effective HE like tetrarch, and arty). There isn't a comparably uncounterable unit in the game, even luft inf can at least be bled with snipers.

Another alternative would be removing the sniper, but idk how significantly that would affect the new PS doctrine's ability to counter snipers since they won't have a buildable sniper and mortar HT's cost fuel. AB can stomp PS doc without much issue unless this unit is supporting their pushes, as the other inf is pretty easily counterable and having a fully mechanized unit comp isn't really viable against an opponent of equal skill due to how quickly AT can kill.

A third option that I personally think might work well for PS doc specifically would be to remove all the weapon upgrade slots on the squad, remove their unit cap, and make them significantly cheaper. They'd still have a sniper (solves the issue with PS doc lacking a counter), and they're reasonably strong against inf even without weapon upgrades (similar to US/brit 7 man squads, which are basically just a more durable version of the basic line inf with one extra utility). They would get countered by vehicles, but AT shouldn't be a huge issue for PE. The 28mm underperforms pretty heavily in its intended role, but the 75mm AT car is good if you can survive long enough to get one out and AT inf/field guns are still an option.

This last option might seem like a big loss overall, but in exchange for all this you'll have a cheaper inf squad that still wins against other all other inf assuming it stays at long range, a pretty safe-to-use counter to snipers, and you'll be able to build multiple. It'd gain utility even with the loss of it's AT ability since you'd be able to use it more often without risking a huge amount of bleed.

[Warhawks97]

Remove sniper.

The other option would either remove too many schreck options from PE or would enable them to have endless inf squads with endless snipers. Quite OP.

[CGarr]

Remove sniper.

The other option would either remove too many schreck options from PE or would enable them to have endless inf squads with endless snipers. Quite OP.

I mean, there'd still be the option for an AT nade like the H3 for AT use, its not like the squad is fragile. You can run up to even anti-inf specialized tanks quite easily to get a shreck shot off, so making the gap to close even bigger might balance it a bit. That and they have passive camo, so you can just sit and wait for a tank.

PE is losing early shreck options because they had them too early to begin with, and this change could just only apply to the new PS doc since that doc has a lot of trouble with snipers, but has plenty of tools to deal with armor and vehicles. You'd have a deterrent to sniper spam just dominating you hard every game since non-mechanized mortars won't be available and you wont be able to build a solo sniper yourself. There's also still potential to bleed quite heavily if you have more than 1 squad, so you'd have to be really picky with what engagements you take.

It'd also give reason for the double shreck AT squad to come back for the doc, which it seems some people really want.

I'm suggesting this because as a unit, the heavy SS squad seems flawed in the same way that the airborne HQ squad was flawed. It has a ton of utility and durability when compared to most other units, which forces it to try and walk the fine line between being OP and being too prohibitively expensive to use without risking a massive chunk of your manpower investment. Cutting down on some of the utility would allow the cost to drop to something reasonable, while the unit would still retain it's elite status within the scope of whatever purpose it is specialized for.

Right now the unit is OP, but a cost increase would make it even more prohibitively expensive than before and I don't want the unit to become unusable. Nerfing its durability wouldn't be optimal since that removes the utility of having a combat squad with a lot of staying power, which is arguably more important than its AT utility. Decreasing this squad's effectiveness against vehicles and increasing other squad's effectiveness to compensate is a negligible loss and making the squad cheaper would be a net gain in terms of your overall arsenal, but the unit would no longer be OP since it would have a weakness (vehicles).

Before someone makes the argument that the other factions have AT avaialble on their elite combat squads, I'd like to mention by that logic, you'd agree that every squad needs 7 men and a sniper too. On top of that, Brits only have one squad that has access to both so this would put PE in line with them (luft still retains a shreck unlock as an option later in the game), as these two factions are closer to eachother in structure than US or Wehr. Additionally, the base inf on PE has AT nades and the need for an bazooka would just be fulfilled by a different unit.

[kwok]

I noticed this topic didn't get much views, so it probably isn't a problem area to look to change.

That being said, here's a suggestion on how to deal with the SS squad as a player.

The SS squad is definitely extremely strong and I think players WANT it to be strong. The way to counter it would be to spend munitions on it. Save your artillery call ins, air strikes, etc. and constantly keep this squad retreating, needing to reinforce, etc. If you get lucky you squad wipe it with no micro needed. If you're not lucky, you will eventually win the attrition war bleeding manpower from your opponent. This is one of those squads similar to heavy tanks from axis, you'll want to save your emergency abilities for this kind of squad. There's nothing that frustrates an axis player more than seeing their high cost unit get stopped by point-click-kill abilities. With any hope you will win not just the attrition war but psychological as well. Personally, just like the churchill or tiger, I don't find this unit frightening at all. I just see it as a big target/weak point in my enemy's mental state.

[Walderschmidt]

I noticed this topic didn't get much views, so it probably isn't a problem area to look to change.

That being said, here's a suggestion on how to deal with the SS squad as a player.

The SS squad is definitely extremely strong and I think players WANT it to be strong. The way to counter it would be to spend munitions on it. Save your artillery call ins, air strikes, etc. and constantly keep this squad retreating, needing to reinforce, etc. If you get lucky you squad wipe it with no micro needed. If you're not lucky, you will eventually win the attrition war bleeding manpower from your opponent. This is one of those squads similar to heavy tanks from axis, you'll want to save your emergency abilities for this kind of squad. There's nothing that frustrates an axis player more than seeing their high cost unit get stopped by point-click-kill abilities. With any hope you will win not just the attrition war but psychological as well. Personally, just like the churchill or tiger, I don't find this unit frightening at all. I just see it as a big target/weak point in my enemy's mental state.

This.

This unit is useless when it gets constantly bombared.

If the PE had volksturms, this unit would be more of a problem IMO. I've not really had problems against this unit when playing against the PE.

Wald

[CGarr]

I noticed this topic didn't get much views, so it probably isn't a problem area to look to change.

That being said, here's a suggestion on how to deal with the SS squad as a player.

The SS squad is definitely extremely strong and I think players WANT it to be strong. The way to counter it would be to spend munitions on it. Save your artillery call ins, air strikes, etc. and constantly keep this squad retreating, needing to reinforce, etc. If you get lucky you squad wipe it with no micro needed. If you're not lucky, you will eventually win the attrition war bleeding manpower from your opponent. This is one of those squads similar to heavy tanks from axis, you'll want to save your emergency abilities for this kind of squad. There's nothing that frustrates an axis player more than seeing their high cost unit get stopped by point-click-kill abilities. With any hope you will win not just the attrition war but psychological as well. Personally, just like the churchill or tiger, I don't find this unit frightening at all. I just see it as a big target/weak point in my enemy's mental state.

It isn't a huge problem, mainly just bringing it up since I think the unit is poorly designed and dependent on just being ridiculous strong against everything (along with being ridiculously expensive), rather than having a real purpose. It's like a heavy tank but harder to actually kill off completely and more annoying to play against as a result. Yes, you need to spend muni on it and exstensive arty use pretty much turns it into an MP sinkhole, and it's obviously not literally unkillable, but the fact that it's only purpose is to draw a ton of fire and attention without the same risks that come with using a heavy tank (you have a retreat button if things look bad and the only thing that can really instakill it is an AVRE or airstrike, or maybe mines/demo, heavies at least have to commit themselves since they cant usually cant retreat quickly). The SS squad can force the game to become really campy on its own since you have to bombard the hell out of it to scare it away or else it can do hit and run effectively enough that the bleed is negligible.

I don't find this unit scary, I just find it incredibly annoying to play against if someone decides to just commit to prolonging the game by constantly rushing it out, firing off a rocket or throwing a nade, and then running away. The other unit that are capable of hit and run in the game can at least be killed quickly without investing 100+ muni (a significant amount if you're also using your muni to bomb other problem targets like TD's). I suggested redesigns of the unit (specialization alongside a reduced cost), not flat out nerfs. I also understand that this isn't high priority, just posting it for future reference so that I can just revive it when the major doctrine reworks and balance changes are done. Again, the unit is flawed, not gamechanginly broken. I should clarify that my previous use of the term OP

Right now the unit is OP, but a cost increase would make it even more prohibitively expensive than before and I don't want the unit to become unusable.

was not a judgement of how balanced this unit is, but rather a judgement of its stats in relation to similar units (not that said units compete against eachother directly). It is too strong for its own good, the MP cost that comes with said strength makes it useless as anything other than an annoyance or means of prolonging the game.

[Sepp(esky)]

Remove sniper.

Why? Seriously? By the time and the total cost is calculated it is actually an inferior or direct equal to what would already be on the field, meanwhile basic pgrens get mopped up without battlefield pickups by this stage. For some legitimately different pe strats this sniper in the ss squad is not only good balance, but neccisary. In tank hunter doctrine is the only legitimate way to field a sniper and a strong infantry unit without dumping tonnes of munitions into heavy pgrens that rng gods hate in the face of allied snipers+endless rockets/arty or a basic sherman...

Unless we want to talk about maxing us snipers at one or removing sniping ability from brits this just seems like more "nerf axis, just because" sentiment...

[Warhawks97]

?

I also propsed to remove snipers from AB HQ squad which i think is now removed. And if you go back into the very past, CW Enfield commandos had also a sniper in their squad which got removed many years ago. In return squads become cheaper and can focus better on their intended role.

I proposed that bc i dont like combat squads with a sniper mixed into them at all. Whats the point except putting many eggs into one basket which then costs billions to replace?

if you upgrade them with too many weapons, the sniper gets lost anyway or at least that has been the case. And when the squad is moving/attacking, the sniper doesnt do anything at all.
So the best way to use this squad was/is to add only lmgs and use it as long range unit only. I would rather add a seperate sniper to TH doc.

[CGarr]

Remove sniper.

Why? Seriously? By the time and the total cost is calculated it is actually an inferior or direct equal to what would already be on the field, meanwhile basic pgrens get mopped up without battlefield pickups by this stage. For some legitimately different pe strats this sniper in the ss squad is not only good balance, but neccisary. In tank hunter doctrine is the only legitimate way to field a sniper and a strong infantry unit without dumping tonnes of munitions into heavy pgrens that rng gods hate in the face of allied snipers+endless rockets/arty or a basic sherman...

Unless we want to talk about maxing us snipers at one or removing sniping ability from brits this just seems like more "nerf axis, just because" sentiment...

Glad to hear more peoples opinions on things, debating things with the same 5 gets stale after a while, even if their posts are generally good. With that being said, I think you want the same thing as the rest of us, maybe excluding Hawks but I think he's reasonable enough to settle for what the majority of the community wants. I get what you mean when you suggest not to change this squad because it would obviously be a nerf to PE on its own, but this kind of change shouldn't happen on its own. As hawks brought up, the PE heavy squad has too many eggs in one basket, which leaves it as this super expensive and costly to reinforce squad that essentially dooms you to heavy manpower bleed should you choose to use it, and that sucks because I think scorched earth and tank hunter should also have access to at least one really strong inf squad (even with its unit cap) since the rest of the inf they have available aren't very efficient in terms of cost excluding maybe the PG squads from the HQ. Wehr already has options if you want efficient cheap inf, PE should be the faction for less but higher quality units that are equally efficient in the sense that they cost more to lose but they also deal more damage and are tougher to compensate. As such, the PE heavy squad is a perfect canidate for letting all PE docs have access to that kind of strength at least in limited amounts.

Removing the sniper from this squad would make it way cheaper, meaning you can be much more aggressive with it without worry about losing so much MP, and as Warhawks stated, you'd be less limited in terms of optimal upgrades for the squad because their would be no useless sniper hanging around in the squad if you choose to use it in a less static role (the sniper doesn't fire when you're moving). I think doing so would be enough reason to allow for TH doc to have a sniper as an seperately buildable unit, as snipers are an extremely obnoxious unit to counter currently for anyone, but especially TH doc players. If this post gave you a different idea of my opinion on the matter then that's on me, it was written somewhat hastily so I may have glossed over some details. I'm happy that you pointed this out so I could clarify my stance on the matter, and again I think we're both in agreement that the sniper itself is not the problem so much as just this squad being too big of an investment for its own good, similar to the pre-rework AB hq squad.