New Fallsj Early AT Availability

[kwok]

I'm splitting this topic for Mefisto

The other think that I want to talk about is the new Luftwaffe FjR 5 Fallschirmjaegers since in the beta we are no able to deploy them with bazooka what I think it's no good because they are vulnerable vs all Allies 50cal and you can't not use them as infiltration troops behind enemies line since you have to unlock with CP the bazooka and then pay for them, they shoul keep the bazooka and unlock the smg with cp.

[kwok]

The worry is that the panzershrecks are too strong and before the reworks fallsj as a doctrine as a whole had amazing AT capabilities in the early, mid, and late game. Since the rework, they were nerfed in the early and mid game but got huge buffs in the late game. Don't forget the base PE faction also use to have pretty good mobile AT, but that changed because of the 50cal changes. By reducing the effectiveness of 50cals, this might not be as bad as a problem.

What if they dropped with the panzerfaust ability but do not get panzershreks?
The supply drop CP upgrade can be swapped out with something like being able to drop with 37mm AT guns or lieg18s as support weapons that they were assigned historically.



EDIT:
Also, Markr did some research and it looks like fallsj were also dropped with pzb 39 AT grenade rifle. So, that's an option too.

EDIT:
Markr has advised me to correct a statement before other nerds in the community start going after our throats. The AT rifle used by the fallsj did not have the grenades but used the bullets instead. So maybe it'll behave more like the AT boys rifle. Please don't write 4 page long posts about why we are historically inaccurate. We just want to balance the game...

[Warhawks97]

The worry is that the panzershrecks are too strong and before the reworks fallsj as a doctrine as a whole had amazing AT capabilities in the early, mid, and late game. Since the rework, they were nerfed in the early and mid game but got huge buffs in the late game. Don't forget the base PE faction also use to have pretty good mobile AT, but that changed because of the 50cal changes. By reducing the effectiveness of 50cals, this might not be as bad as a problem.

what kind of nerf?

What if they dropped with the panzerfaust ability but do not get panzershreks?
The supply drop CP upgrade can be swapped out with something like being able to drop with 37mm AT guns or lieg18s as support weapons that they were assigned historically.

They had Panzerfaust in vcoh i think, so why not?

EDIT:
Also, Markr did some research and it looks like fallsj were also dropped with pzb 39 AT grenade rifle. So, that's an option too.

EDIT:
Markr has advised me to correct a statement before other nerds in the community start going after our throats. The AT rifle used by the fallsj did not have the grenades but used the bullets instead. So maybe it'll behave more like the AT boys rifle. Please don't write 4 page long posts about why we are historically inaccurate. We just want to balance the game...

Early in the war, it was a rifle. Later, when it became totally obsolete, they turned it into a grenade launcher. The cup mounted on it could also be mounted on K98´s. The WH AT rifle squad uses the grenade launcher that behaves like a rifle in trajectory.

Edit:
That was the original german AT rifle and how i wished it would have been introduced as a support weapon for infantry units.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMJQ-MMr3sA

That games gets it correct.

[kwok]

See other post for 50cal
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3519

[CGarr]

Having a faust ability or an AT grenade shot similar to the one on the light AT squads in the live version would fit pretty well, Falls could finish off a tank or possibly scare it away, but they cant kill it on their own.

Either that, or a way to immobilize tanks from short range (like an upgraded, more consistent brandflasch) would present opportunities for other supports to destroy the tank without giving the fallsch squad itself proper AT capabilities.

I see people using the stuka divebomb ability a lot on tanks in the beta thinking it'll kill the tank, only for it to barely scratch the thing even if it lands like right next to it. If it got buffed, I think it would be reasonable to have as a combo for dealing with armor without neccesarily being a reliable primary option due to the timer on the bomb. It would also come with the tradeoff of having to close distance, so tanks like the normal m4 sherman would remain a reliable counter to fallsch squads.

[MEFISTO]

I still think they need that Panzerfaust to fight (or survive 50cal spam) as an infiltration unit like all Allies airborne, that comes with bazookas.

[CGarr]

Maybe give them a cheap AT rifle shot ability similar to the AT nade riflemen have but without the need for a weapon upgrade? It'd be like a faust with more range but less powerful.

[Warhawks97]

Maybe give them a cheap AT rifle shot ability similar to the AT nade riflemen have but without the need for a weapon upgrade? It'd be like a faust with more range but less powerful.

I would keep suggesting to give them faust rather than rifle nades. Fausts are small and ideal for para drops. Rifle grenades are actually attachments to rifles which they dont carry. Would look weird when someone pulls out a rifle just to fire a nade.

Also the panzerfaust 100 does not have much less range than rifle nade. I think gebis use the 100.

[CGarr]

Maybe give them a cheap AT rifle shot ability similar to the AT nade riflemen have but without the need for a weapon upgrade? It'd be like a faust with more range but less powerful.

I would keep suggesting to give them faust rather than rifle nades. Fausts are small and ideal for para drops. Rifle grenades are actually attachments to rifles which they dont carry. Would look weird when someone pulls out a rifle just to fire a nade.

Also the panzerfaust 100 does not have much less range than rifle nade. I think gebis use the 100.

Faust would also hit way harder though, which is why I suggested the AT rifle. As for it looking weird, see Kwok's statement about how Markr found that they were used by falls. It's at least mostly historically accurate (not sure if its perfect but this mod isn't exactly super historically accurate to begin with, just more so than vanilla). As far as the gameplay part, a faust with longer range is basically just a shreck shot so thats not really solving the problem at hand. Since it's a bullet (not a grenade), its probably going to be pretty close to the boys AT rifle, maybe more accurate if its an ability. That should be good enough to deal with vehicles, and for tanks you could let it have a stun that blinds them or gives a damaged engine crit with little to no health damage, to simulate detracking the tank without introducing an actual ranged immbobilization tool since apparently everyone in the BK community hates those. The tank would be slowed, allowing the falls to escape its range and either retreat or go around it, but the tank wouldn't be immobilized or actually damaged. To keep it from being an OP snare lategame, the ability could just go away once the squad has access to a shreck (on doctrinal unlock, on weapon upgrade for the squad, etc..). That, or have the rifle shot change to the faust at that point.

[MEFISTO]

Maybe give them a cheap AT rifle shot ability similar to the AT nade riflemen have but without the need for a weapon upgrade? It'd be like a faust with more range but less powerful.

I would keep suggesting to give them faust rather than rifle nades. Fausts are small and ideal for para drops. Rifle grenades are actually attachments to rifles which they dont carry. Would look weird when someone pulls out a rifle just to fire a nade.

Also the panzerfaust 100 does not have much less range than rifle nade. I think gebis use the 100.

Faust would also hit way harder though, which is why I suggested the AT rifle. As for it looking weird, see Kwok's statement about how Markr found that they were used by falls. It's at least mostly historically accurate (not sure if its perfect but this mod isn't exactly super historically accurate to begin with, just more so than vanilla). As far as the gameplay part, a faust with longer range is basically just a shreck shot so thats not really solving the problem at hand. Since it's a bullet (not a grenade), its probably going to be pretty close to the boys AT rifle, maybe more accurate if its an ability. That should be good enough to deal with vehicles, and for tanks you could let it have a stun that blinds them or gives a damaged engine crit with little to no health damage, to simulate detracking the tank without introducing an actual ranged immbobilization tool since apparently everyone in the BK community hates those. The tank would be slowed, allowing the falls to escape its range and either retreat or go around it, but the tank wouldn't be immobilized or actually damaged. To keep it from being an OP snare lategame, the ability could just go away once the squad has access to a shreck (on doctrinal unlock, on weapon upgrade for the squad, etc..). That, or have the rifle shot change to the faust at that point.

Axis airborne troops needs the bazooka as allies needs their bazookas too especially if you use them to get behind enemies line.

[CGarr]

I would keep suggesting to give them faust rather than rifle nades. Fausts are small and ideal for para drops. Rifle grenades are actually attachments to rifles which they dont carry. Would look weird when someone pulls out a rifle just to fire a nade.

Also the panzerfaust 100 does not have much less range than rifle nade. I think gebis use the 100.

Faust would also hit way harder though, which is why I suggested the AT rifle. As for it looking weird, see Kwok's statement about how Markr found that they were used by falls. It's at least mostly historically accurate (not sure if its perfect but this mod isn't exactly super historically accurate to begin with, just more so than vanilla). As far as the gameplay part, a faust with longer range is basically just a shreck shot so thats not really solving the problem at hand. Since it's a bullet (not a grenade), its probably going to be pretty close to the boys AT rifle, maybe more accurate if its an ability. That should be good enough to deal with vehicles, and for tanks you could let it have a stun that blinds them or gives a damaged engine crit with little to no health damage, to simulate detracking the tank without introducing an actual ranged immbobilization tool since apparently everyone in the BK community hates those. The tank would be slowed, allowing the falls to escape its range and either retreat or go around it, but the tank wouldn't be immobilized or actually damaged. To keep it from being an OP snare lategame, the ability could just go away once the squad has access to a shreck (on doctrinal unlock, on weapon upgrade for the squad, etc..). That, or have the rifle shot change to the faust at that point.

Axis airborne troops needs the bazooka as allies needs their bazookas too especially if you use them to get behind enemies line.

The bazooka isnt going away, its just coming later and being replaced by something that isnt quite as strong upfront.

[kwok]

Updating with a poll. Please vote and share the poll with others.

[Walderschmidt]

I voted the faust because the AT nade rie means the squad is down an FG42 or K98 and anti-inf ability, ehich the squad needs now more than it did prior.

Wald

[MEFISTO]

I am agree with walder about the at rifle, they are going down one fg42 or one karl98, but at the same time if you give them a Faust that is going to make them hell strong vs any armor or light vehicle, what’s the problem with give them back the bazooka? That bazooka is not what make them so strong you know that, I did not vote yet because I don’t want a weak guys that can’t go behind enemies line or a hell strong squad bro but if I have to vote I will choose the Faust since luwaffe lost the Hetzel.

[kwok]

the panzerschreck is as strong as the Faust though and the schreck costs no munition to reload. How would the Faust be more strong than the panzerschreck?

[MEFISTO]

the panzerschreck is as strong as the Faust though and the schreck costs no munition to reload. How would the Faust be more strong than the panzerschreck?

What I was saying is when they unlock the panzereschreck they will have both and It will make them strong as hell. Just give them back the Panzereschreck and problem solved.

[MEFISTO]

The first allies airborne squad can destroy a puma with one shot then what’s the deal? and can pick up from the ground 2 more bazookas.

[TheUndying]

50 ammo per shot for a (initially) weaker and easier to kill squad is quite expensive, especially given how we got 3 squads max now and each squad could eat up to 225 ammo for all upgrades.

I think the Panzerschreck should come for free and the FG42s could come in with supply drop unlock for 2x75 ammo. But 225ammo x3 for upgrades is too much imo.

[CGarr]

I voted the faust because the AT nade rie means the squad is down an FG42 or K98 and anti-inf ability, ehich the squad needs now more than it did prior.

Wald

I suggested the AT rifle shot as essentially a lighter version of the panzerfaust, not a change in loadout. They'd keep all their anti inf weapons, only pulling out the AT rifle when they use the ability similar to the US CQB squad.

[kwok]

I guess in the spirit of Mefisto's suggestion, I restarted the poll with a new option.

[Mantis]

For me shreck with new CP unlock HMG team paradrop.

[Warhawks97]

As i think about it i would say mefisto is quite right. Panzerfaust may look nice (its btw much better in terms of pen compared to schreck) but is OP when the squad gets schreck and faust, esspecially when it is the Panzerfuaust 100 with huge range.

I also dont like AT rifle shot so much bc i think if a unit has such a thing it should be build up arround it with multiple grenade launcher abilties and not just one ability and which requires not even an upgrade. It would also make the squad extremely multirole. AT rifle shot counters vehicles pretty well, Schreck counters tanks and FG42 schreds inf. Thats too much. It would be actually more annoying as to have the squad having a schreck and a short ranged schreck simply bc its weakness would be vehicles. But with AT rifle nade and schreck and FG42 it becomes a real pain fighting these squads.

normal faust along with schreck would be one thing. Else i would say keep it as it is. Perhaps delaying all FG42 after an unlock so that you start with MP40 and Schreck as Undying suggested. I think his proposal would be the best to keep the unit in check. Thats why i voted the last option and supporting Undying.

[TheUndying]

Voted for the Schreck and imo all the drop-call ins and upgrades that they have should be locked behind CP, including FG42s.

So you have a decent infantry that has AT capability but still needs to invest 150 to get the FG42 upgrades - seems a lot fairer to me. 2 CP to unlock it should be fine.

[mofetagalactica]

Mmm, there's no option for none and just leave them as they are now? They got MP price reduced not long ago.

Another option could be to have the shreck stay as an upgrade but way way cheaper or free once you get the CP unlock (not to make a shreck just fall from the air so any other unit can grab it).

The gerbs are only at 450mp at the momment and they come with faust i think this pool could have wait until beta changes were finished, Luftwaffe is pretty strong in the new beta.

If they get free shreck then ill suggest to make them expensive again.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Give them stickies. The best AT thing in the game not much people ever complained among allies players. AmIright?

But for real:

I'd let them use either Faust right on, and/or additionally after CP upgrade for Panzershrek..

What if only panzershrek was considered heavy enough, for Fall's to lose some of their fighting capabilities, at least movement speed, so it could prevent no brainers for wanting it, like always, and make it a decision.

Personally in my eyes, i'd like to see more of "free to use/high cooldown" abilities in the game, especially or specifically for offmap kind of units, alike Lufts and Airborns.
What im saying, is that Elite units are supposed to be great on field right on, nothing bad about it, people want to expect them to be that way, but there has to be another side of that. So Faust should be available right on and free to shot, but, unless u are using Supply truck to speed up the cooldown for abilities, you won't be able to use it in next time. And instead of stupid blobbing and chasings, it could make it more tactical and realistic.
Same could, or should apply to Panzershrek and Bazooks of any kind. When it's not dedicated AT squad, it should be high rewarding click to shoot ability.