25 Pdr Updates

[kwok]

Hello all,

After playing some games and watching some replays we noticed the 25 pdr artillery gun was not used very often especially compared to other howtizers. As a part of the artillery/canadian doctrine, we feel this unit should be a bit more core in the build orders. We have a few ideas on how to do this, please help us make a choice as players who play more often.

Here are a few speculations on why they are underpowered:

1. Their damage/aoe/scatter ratios make them unreliable artillery units. Unlike the 105 where the artillery shot is likely to at least kill one unit, the 25 pdr is unreliable in landing a successful hit before units will start to just move out of the bombardment area. The scatter of the 25pdr is the same as the 105mms but the AOE and damage makes it so that the landed shot doesn't cover a bombardment are well enough. That being said, we will either buff the 25pdr to somewhere more like the 105mm OR we will make the 25pdr have a smaller scatter so it act's a bit more precise but not as powerful artillery gun, a bit of a separated purpose compared to 105mm howitzers, heavy mortars, priests, and howitzer halftracks.

2. The timing of their availability comes differently than the 105, where it requires teching up to at least t3/t4 whereas other howitzers are available at 2-4CP which can come as early as t2. So the solution would be to also move the 25pdr to a CP unlock instead of behind a tier.

Let us know what you think or if you have other ideas. We gave the option of two votes and you can change your votes at any time up until we make a final decision. Thank you.

As of now, we lean more towards reducing the scatter of 25pdrs.

REMINDER: This vote isn't decision making final. We are just trying to get a sense of what the community thinks as a factor of the decision.

[Diablo]

How about increasing the fire rate and amount of shots per barrage? So that in about the same time more shells can saturate the target area.

On a second note, the emplaced 25-pounder doesnt fire for me. It just raises the gun and the ability appears activated, but nothing happens. I remember some issue of placement on uneven surfaces, but i think it happens everywhere, at least to me.

Edit: typos

[MarKr]

@Diablo: While it would also be possible, it should be noted that in the past people often complained about arty that "fires lots of shots and hits very fast, leaving no time to react". Static howitzers already fire 8 shots per barrage instead of 6 (which the mobile arty units have).

Yes, the "howitzer turns but doesn't fire" is an old bug which we haven't been able to solve yet. I've made a quick search and found out that people have been reporting this bug in CoH2 so I suspect that it is some problem in the engine and if so then it's unlikely we'll be able to fix it. It seems to be indeed connected to terrain flatness so try to build these things on as flat terrain as possible to minimize the chance of getting this bug.

[Warhawks97]

25 pdr is just roughly 87 mm. It had only small amount of HE. Why not just making them cheaper an available t2? It should not become a 105 copy bc it wasn't.

So just make them early access and cheap

[Diablo]

Hm i see how an increase in fire rate could be a red flag with your remark in mind.

Yet the destructive potential of 25pdrs feels underwhelming (without use of the creeping barrage). I think that a dedicated arty doc needs some heavy hitters, idk if the Priest alone can fill that role.

Btw, does the creeping barrage actually use 25pdr shells? It seems more like 105 to me, but i could be wrong.

[kwok]

There's also a limit to how much we can increase the fire rate based on the model's animation. We can increase the rate only so much before it absolutely bugs and doesn't shoot at all.

As far as I can tell, creeping barrage does NOT use 105 values but the 25 pdr weapon.

[Warhawks97]

Creeping barrage is a whole different thing. It's more like a "call in ability" for the howitzer. More shots land than get fired and the gun doesn't reload visually as far as I can tell. And its not linked with the guns calibre. Its always the same impact.
25 pdr should be a low cost arty. Cheap to build and use. The goal would be to just keep the enemie busy with constantly firing shells on enemie troops. Harassment artillery.

[CGarr]

Creeping barrage is a whole different thing. It's more like a "call in ability" for the howitzer. More shots land than get fired and the gun doesn't reload visually as far as I can tell. And its not linked with the guns calibre. Its always the same impact.
25 pdr should be a low cost arty. Cheap to build and use. The goal would be to just keep the enemie busy with constantly firing shells on enemie troops. Harassment artillery.

I would leave its effectiveness as is, maybe more accurate in exchange for less aoe. The gun should just be cheaper to fire as a means of harassment without having the killing power to knock out armored targets on their own in less than 3 salvos but in exchange being cheap enough to fire multiple salvos of to bring it more in line with the other artillery pieces in terms of damage over time possible relative to muni costs. In saying this, I agree with hawks.

An example:

*note: these numbers could be adjusted as seen fit, just trying to give a more accurate description based on my experiences with resource inflow and outflow through the course of the games i've played, as well as using other units as reference*

A1-A3: emplacements 1 through 3 (30 muni barrage, less shells per barrage and damage adjusted to above described amount)
Tar1: tank
Tar2: infantry

possible choices for arty player


1) A1-A3 simultaneous to Tar1: assuming a good amount of shots from the initial 2 volleys hit, immobilize and likely severely damge/kill 1 tank for 75 muni, comes out to be more expensive relative to a 105 barrage for a similar amount of effectiveness, but this price is justified by the other possible firing solutions and the added accuracy. Enemy player will have have to react quickly due to the amount of shells landing at once, but if the current fire rate is maintained it should be enough time to get out without too much damage provided the tank wasn't already immobilized and the player starts moving the tank when (or right after) the first shells land.


2) A1-A3 simultaneous to Tar 2: Very quickly kills inf in a small area or blankets an entire area in fire, forcing a mass retreat. Results in either a gauranteed wipe of 1-2 squads or area denial similar to calliope. Still in line with allied status-quo in terms of how much damage they can put out since its pretty much the equivalent of a 105 barrage on a squad or a calliope firing on a large area, just gives arty doc player more flexibility with his guns than either of those options have in exchange for being slightly more expensive overall. Can fire less on target as needed, and price would be determined by amount of barrages the player decides to use for their needs.


3) A1-A3 steady to Tar1 or Tar2: Denies a smaller area from being entered by any unit for an extended period of time, about 25 muni per 30-60 seconds of area denial depending on how much attention enemy player decides to devote to microing in and out of the fire and their general micro skill (higher skill = less time). Again comparable to calliope but trades area coverage for time of denial.


4) A1 to Tar1, A2-A3 staggered to Tar2: First barrage(s) to immobilize a tank, then use remaining guns to kill support as it comes. This option would require the most attention and would be the riskiest investment (aside from maybe the first) since there's a chance the tank repairs enough to get away or doesn't even get immobilized to begin with. In exchange, it would both deny the enemy player their ability to effectively use the tank while also making them continue to pay the upkeep for said useless tank and bleeding their manpower by blowing away support units and repairing inf. Good placement of the immobilizing barrages would be vital, as these smaller barrages would individually be less effective than 105's at immobilizing due to their smaller area of effect. As such, multiple attempts might be needed to successfully immobilize the tank.


All of these options would use about the same amount of muni as (if not more than) the current american arty equivalents for a similar outcome relative to cost. Main difference would be flexibility in the use of said arty, as unlike other doctrines, the artillery doctrine player would have much more freedom to choose how they want to use their arty and muni by using the above solutions to give them the following tools:

A) A general destructive instrument similar to the current 105's, slightly more expensive but with higher chance to hit since there'd be a higher volume of shells overall since the arty doc player would be using multiple barrages at once instead of one.
B) Area denial with a choice between either more coverage like the calliope or extended time of denial.
C) Staggered/selective volleys to continuously harass and bleed a target. Cost scales with how many barrages are used, so it wouldn't really be the same as mindless spam of arty. It'd require more attention and would bleed enough muni to force the arty player to pay attention to their inflows vs outflows, yet it would be more sustainable/flexible than any other solution available to other docs/factions.


Edit: sorry for wall of text, most of it is just explanation in support of my initial statement of my opinion so I don't have to keep coming back to this topic, the first paragraph summarizes my thoughts on the matter.

[MarKr]

I would leave its effectiveness as is, maybe more accurate in exchange for less aoe.

The gun currently feels underwhelming because it already has pretty low AoE. Just for comparison - the US handgrenade has AoE of 7.5, the 25 pounder has AoE of 7. Of course the 25pounder deals more damage and can damage armored units while the grenade cannot but the AoE conributes to it feeling "weak" because in combination with its relatively high scatter, about one shot out of the 8 in a barrage manages to catch some enemy unit in the AoE. The 105 units have AoE of about 10, with more damage about the same scatter so it is easier to get more shells catch some enemies in their AoE and when they do catch them, they punch harder. So I would say that lower scatter can help but also lowering the AoE would basically keep the current problem.

EDIT:

Creeping barrage is a whole different thing.
(...)
And its not linked with the guns calibre. Its always the same impact.

Not as far I can tell...it uses separate weapon files for 25 pounder and Priest with their own stats for each of them.

[Warhawks97]

Maybe got changed then. But as far as i can say i did use 25 pdrs for such creeping barrages and they i got a big boom out of of it and kept the priests for shooting specific targets.

I also think that AoE can be increased without increasing the damage if thats the entire problem with it. Perhaps check out what the 75 mm howitzers have as stats and just improve it a bit for the 25 pdrs. That might solve the biggest issues.

[Redgaarden]

Just for comparison - the US handgrenade has AoE of 7.5, the 25 pounder has AoE of 7. Of course the 25pounder deals more damage and can damage armored units while the grenade cannot

I think it's more that 25Pounder has higher penetration than Handgrenade, since handgrenades can kill snipers while a direct hit from 25pounder doesn't. I would change the damage of the 25 pounder so it actually matters. like 250 instead of 125 that it does now (Snipers have 140hp).

Not as far I can tell...it uses separate weapon files for 25 pounder and Priest with their own stats for each of them.

the 25 pounder uses 105mm creeping barrage. And scatter shots.

Edit:I'm pretty sure the 75mm halftrack is more deadly than a 25pdr

Edit2: My opinions is that it's fine as it is since all of its abilities except for regular barrage are good, or situational useful. Anti infantry Sharpnel, Aimed Shots for vehicles, Creeping barrage for destruction, and overwatch for anti building siege. So in a sense it is locked behinde cp's as it only becomes useful after some cp unlocks.