Tank IV´s Revised

[Warhawks97]

This Topic is made as seperate one to split the debate a bit: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3412

Its all about Sherman 76 later? yes/no. Tank IV´s earlier? Yes/No. Who shall be better in terms of armor, gun etc etc etc etc aaannnd etc.


So i will just bring up a whole new idea about tank IV or rather the H and J version.


I got to the point where i say: Why do we need to unlock them at all via CP? We dont need to delay 76 shermans, we only have to make these Tank IV´s available for no CP unlock. Gameplay wise yes, they need CP unlock due to their "mini Tiger" armor.

But thing is, that the G/H and J version were the actual core units. From 1942 onwards, there was simply no stubby Tank IV in production anymore. Out of over 8500 build tank IV´s, only 1142 received stubby guns. Over 7400 were build with a long barrel from 1942 untill the end of war and of those almost 5500 were H and J versions. So why even bothering to debate whether the 76 shermans needs a later unlock or the Tank IV unlocked earlier?


I am trying to get it right now:


Tank IV F2/H/J doctrinal availability:


F2:

- The F2 version (or G, whatever you want) would be available right away for the Blitzkrieg doctrine, Volkssturm and SE doctrine.
- The cost would be 390 and 40 fuel. No more cost drop.
- Available in Tank Factory and Tank support command.

The reason is that Blitz needs some quick support for its Tank III´s, SE some sort of cheap early AT support unit and Volkssturm needs a bit of help down mid game and cant wait for Tiger to arrive.


H:
- That tank would be available for Blitzkrieg doctrine, upcoming TH doctrine and Perhaps Luftwaffe.
- It cost would be 480 MP and 60 fuel. 465/50 after Mass production unlock.
- For Wehrmacht, the Tank is moved to the last building -Heavy Tank Factory- instead of the third right along with Panthers and Tigers.
- for PE it would be placed in Tank support command and would perhaps require upgraded production first. Depends on how future PE tec requirments will look like.



J:

- That Tank would be available for BK, Volkssturm, TH and Luftwaffe.
- However, in BK doc it would require The Mass-production unlock first.
- In Luftwaffe and TH it might be a reward, but not sure though.
- Cost would be 390 and 45 fuel.
- Has Skirts right away like H version.




Now to the stats:

Weapons:
- The weapons would stay so far as they are in terms of stats. Except against some units like Jumbo and perhaps some slight tweaks against shermans and comets. But thats up for the future.


Armor

F2
Now to the most important part. The Armor for tank IV´s has always been over the top and the fact that you get long barrled tank IV´s everywhere for no CP (only def doc left without but i think they are not in big need) and low cost.

- The F2 version would have basically very thin armor and its main role is support of inf and other tanks, not to spearhead attacks. Kind of "help out" unit but good enough to handle shermans. The allied 57 mm Gun would go through it easily. Perhaps not 100% at max range but decent 80% to 85%.
The 75 mm Gun would go through quite easily as well and 76 is self explaining:

37 mm AT: roughly 30%, higher with special AP ofc.
6pdr/57 mm AT: 85% pen max range
75 mm gun from sherman and chaffe etc: 90%


H/J:

6pdr/57 mm AT: Roughly 30% pen chance
75 mm sherman guns: Roughly 35-40%
3 inch gun: Between 75-85%
76 mm sherman guns: 80 to 95%





That basically means, that you can get Any Tank IV once you have build the correct building. Under these cirumstances, the 76 sherman unlock and the weakned armor (fixed) of Tank IV´s seem Justified. They are also quite cheap now in all docs, not just in one.



One question remains: Is or should the F2 version be an F2 (of which actually one 200 were build) or the G version of which 1700 got build. But those had extra armor 30 mm armor plates at front hull which increased armor to 80 mm as well (but not as effective as one single made 80 mm steelplate).
In that case, stats and cost of that tank would change again a bit.

[mofetagalactica]

Like i said before, reworks has been already made,this is not a critical change needed for now and we still have to see how beta meta's evolves after releasing, the problem sounds easy but its just one problem where we will have to change the whole medium tank stats over the board, thats why it would be optimal to see how it evolves and then we can talk about this seriously.

[CGarr]

Like i said before, reworks has been already made,this is not a critical change needed for now and we still have to see how beta meta's evolves after releasing, the problem sounds easy but its just one problem where we will have to change the whole medium tank stats over the board, thats why it would be optimal to see how it evolves and then we can talk about this seriously.

Seconding this, I agree with all the points presented but this is a pretty large change and isn't necessarily gamebreaking, I'll try to bring attention back to this thread once the reworks are done or at least closer to being done.

[MEFISTO]

So you want to muve a medium tank to a heavy factory, nerf it vs shermans and comet? yes I can see what Kind of balance you like! and I don't think some one is going to gaste money in a medium armor in the late game when you can make a heavy armor Panther V.

[CGarr]

So you want to muve a medium tank to a heavy factory, nerf it vs shermans and comet? yes I can see what Kind of balance you like! and I don't think some one is going to gaste money in a medium armor in the late game when you can make a heavy armor Panther V.

Probably going to side with mefisto on this one, if the 75mm is getting buffed against F2 then it seems weird to have the H/J on the heavy tank building unless the Heavy tank building will cost significantly less to tech to/build, with the barrier to tigers/panthers being upgraded production instead. The H/J in that meta would be the answer to sherman 75mm, and would therefore need to be available significantly earlier than they are now (2CP --> 0CP, medium tank building). 76 would just naturally come after that since it has a CP cost, (unless maybe rushed) but would be at least somewhat more reliable against H/J, even though realistically speaking it should have no problem with that level of armor. For gameplay sake it'd make sense to not have it completely stomp H/J since there would be even less reason to make m10/m18.

[Warhawks97]

OMG mefisto. You could be a real conspiracy theorist.

My idea was that f2 is available as it is now in third building.

The H/J version in the last building but in return no CP cost. They would also be more widespread among more docs. I think it's easier and faster to tec till last building as to spend 4 CP.

So bringing up assault tanks and storms along wit tank IV H/J would be significantly easier. In voch tank IVs were also placed in the last building along with panthers.

[MEFISTO]

OMG mefisto. You could be a real conspiracy theorist.

My idea was that f2 is available as it is now in third building.

The H/J version in the last building but in return no CP cost. They would also be more widespread among more docs. I think it's easier and faster to tec till last building as to spend 4 CP.

So bringing up assault tanks and storms along wit tank IV H/J would be significantly easier. In voch tank IVs were also placed in the last building along with panthers.

In this case must of the time CP unlock will be way faster than build your heavy armor factory (you know that) specialy 1v1, back in the day here we were talking about to maximize the mid game with PIV shermans etc.. and you want to muve a medium armor PIV to the late game when you know no body is going to use it, really? and by the way you want to nerf it vs 76mm shermans and comet that will come much more earlier in this case

[Warhawks97]

OMG mefisto. You could be a real conspiracy theorist.

My idea was that f2 is available as it is now in third building.

The H/J version in the last building but in return no CP cost. They would also be more widespread among more docs. I think it's easier and faster to tec till last building as to spend 4 CP.

So bringing up assault tanks and storms along wit tank IV H/J would be significantly easier. In voch tank IVs were also placed in the last building along with panthers.

In this case must of the time CP unlock will be way faster than build your heavy armor factory (you know that) specialy 1v1, back in the day here we were talking about to maximize the mid game with PIV shermans etc.. and you want to muve a medium armor PIV to the late game when you know no body is going to use it, really? and by the way you want to nerf it vs 76mm shermans and comet that will come much more earlier in this case

First of all, i did use Panzer IV J´s during any stage of the game. They are good enough to deal with all nasty anti infantry units my enemie has for very low cost. I mean, yes, the majority is always going straight up for bigger tanks and never get mediums again once bigger stuff is available. But thats not my fault. I do use mediums as alli and axis during any stage of the game. People build 76 shermans in late game, why is it so impossible to use tank IV´s in late game as well?

I mean think about it. The J version for less than 400 MP... thats less than a mortar HT or grenadier squad. And that in all four docs: Luft, Terror, BK and TH. Only BK has to spend a small ammount of CP simply bc they get the H first. But no other faction can get such a medium tank for such low cost with such a gun unless they pick armor doc. Thats a damn good reason for me to use that thing even into late stage.


Also PE would only need one of the bigger buildings.
And overall my plan was to make WH buildings more flexible in availability so that you dont need the second to get the third or the third to get the last one. And the third building would contain stugs, pumas, artillery and all that stuff. The last one all major Tanks bigger than stug or Tank III.

Probably going to side with mefisto on this one, if the 75mm is getting buffed against F2 then it seems weird to have the H/J on the heavy tank building unless the Heavy tank building will cost significantly less to tech to/build, with the barrier to tigers/panthers being upgraded production instead. The H/J in that meta would be the answer to sherman 75mm, and would therefore need to be available significantly earlier than they are now (2CP --> 0CP, medium tank building). 76 would just naturally come after that since it has a CP cost, (unless maybe rushed) but would be at least somewhat more reliable against H/J, even though realistically speaking it should have no problem with that level of armor. For gameplay sake it'd make sense to not have it completely stomp H/J since there would be even less reason to make m10/m18.

The advantage is that you dont need to pay CP at first.

And M10/M18 are TD. Its like saying no one would build Hetzer just bc they can build Tank IV´s. M10 and 18 are cheaper, faster and have ambush ability. So they will get used no matter what. No one will put the more expensive sherman in every corner he wants to defend and which are visible all the time.

[Walderschmidt]

Putting a PIV in the T4 building ensures it will come out at the time heavy tanks are relevant and therefore won’t get picked.

Wald

[CGarr]

Putting a PIV in the T4 building ensures it will come out at the time heavy tanks are relevant and therefore won’t get picked.

Wald

Not if the cost of the building is dropped and a multi-layer upgraded production system is added, similar to US.

[MEFISTO]

Putting a PIV in the T4 building ensures it will come out at the time heavy tanks are relevant and therefore won’t get picked.

Wald

Not if the cost of the building is dropped and a multi-layer upgraded production system is added, similar to US.

To many changes for a thing that only needs less CP.