Luft Doc Infantry Cost vs Durability Options

[CGarr]

Assuming PE docs are going to get reworked at some point, what are people's thoughts on reducing the price of luft inf and either decreasing the amount of men per squad or lowering their defensive stats but keeping their offensive stats really high?

Personally I think this would make the doc more fluid and able to play aggressively (flanking would actually be viable as you wouldn't be going out of position with an absurdly expensive squad like you would currently), as they wouldn't be repelled as easily due to being split up but they also wouldn't be unkillable supermen. I think a big part of the issue people currently have with luft inf is that they are so strong that players are generally forced to play very defensively, as playing aggresively against luft is generally a death sentence unless you have a lot of armor, as the squads can melt through other inf without even losing a model, even against elites like rangers. I don't think their damage output is a problem, as they are supposed to be elite ambush inf. The issue is their durability, currently it is so high that it presents the 2 issues I mentioned above, forcing the allied players to play defensively and bomb them out as well as being a driver for the extremely high cost of the squad.

Of the 2 options I mentioned above, I think lowering the defensive stats somewhat would be the better option, as lowering men per squad opens them up to potentially getting wiped by offmap or snipers, but the outcome probably won't be too different with the smaller squad option considering their ability to shrug off HE shells with their current stats.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when making a squad weaker in terms of durability like this, you are potentially opening up new options that would've previously been considered OP with high defensive stats, like crawling or new offensive options. In saying that, I hope the results of this poll could considered for elite inf across all factions but the primary focus for now would be luft inf since their stats stand out to the point of being considered problematic by many. I didn't say how low the cost should be dropped for either of these options because I feel like that would require testing to be properly determined, simply spitting out a random number doesn't really help as the current stats already serve as a point of reference to work off of.

[needammo]

You can do it as the vanilla company, Panzer Elite has small squads, but they are complemented by light vehicles and gain veteranism as a whole.

[CGarr]

You can do it as the vanilla company, Panzer Elite has small squads, but they are complemented by light vehicles and gain veteranism as a whole.

By this I assume you mean the vanilla game, and yeah between this topic and what mencius sad about Pgrens it looks like a lot of the community would like to see this in BK in some form.

[kwok]

So I'm going to have a really unpopular opinion and will probably encourage all of you to think twice about your vote... because at the end of the day... we make this game for you and I feel like you are all doing something you DON'T want.

In my old CoH2 mod I experimented with a set up where regular large squads existed as well as smaller squads with much more utility. For example, larger squads did not have grenades or sprint while smaller squads did. What ended up happening was players completely ignored the small squads and only used the large ones.

Having small squads is much more micro intense and the squad itself is significantly less powerful. If the squad is 4 instead of 6 men, the effectiveness of the squad doesn't just go down 1/3, but much more. Just as an example scenario, say you face a double sniper. With a 6 man squad, you have essentially 2 cooldowns worth of time to execute a tactic before you are reduced to 2 men and decide to retreat. With a 4 man squad, after the initial single volley from double snipers, you would want to immediately retreat.

We are testing this idea right now with the assault squad in brits but you can see immediately players are calling for a way to expand that squad size without even trying the patch yet.

[Warhawks97]

If basic PE units can effectively work with Vehicles and as groups and the option to reinforce near the HT´s, i dont see why 4 men should not work. Also they perhaps have the option to be 5 men later.

As for Luft inf, they can start up 5 and later uping them to 6 men. And the SS squad, if you need durable inf squads, can be 6 men, later 7 and two in unit limit (no more sniper in it). So you get the full range of infantry squad sizes, depending on what you focus. Mixed forces, elite para units or large inf waves.

[MEFISTO]

If basic PE units can effectively work with Vehicles and as groups and the option to reinforce near the HT´s, i dont see why 4 men should not work. Also they perhaps have the option to be 5 men later.

As for Luft inf, they can start up 5 and later uping them to 6 men. And the SS squad, if you need durable inf squads, can be 6 men, later 7 and two in unit limit (no more sniper in it). So you get the full range of infantry squad sizes, depending on what you focus. Mixed forces, elite para units or large inf waves.

Any time I reed one of your answer you just try to keep nerfing german army no balance at all man (no more snipers for PE) when only lufwaffe have 1 and SE. All Allies have snipers and CW in theirs regular squads,k what is wrong with you? It's about balance not just NERF AXIXS if you are going to NERF something you have to look the other side too. Example, when we talked about Lufwaffe air patrol we were agree with that OP ability needs to be NERF, I was completely agree with that NERF and then we did the same with allies patrol too, it was easier to escape but was a pain also so it got nerf too, when we talk about make Stuka plane a bit more efficient it's because at some point if you look Allies Air strike they have 2 tipes that can destroy armors and emplacement at the same time (heavy bombs). I am completely agree with Kwok about the size of the squads ( don't need to be smaller). I will let you here guys a good game I think is balance: 3 Airbornes and 1 RA vs 2 lufwaffe 1 BK dock and 1 defensive! enjoy it.
Keep nerfing Axis you are doing good

[MEFISTO]

this are the stats of the game

[kwok]

I'm with Mefisto on this one. Everyone knows I hate luft, ask Erich.
But I fear the proposal here will nerf luft too much. Even post sniper changes in the other thread, things like m8 scotts, 75mm shermans, field guns, even grenades will be too punishing.

[Warhawks97]

If basic PE units can effectively work with Vehicles and as groups and the option to reinforce near the HT´s, i dont see why 4 men should not work. Also they perhaps have the option to be 5 men later.

As for Luft inf, they can start up 5 and later uping them to 6 men. And the SS squad, if you need durable inf squads, can be 6 men, later 7 and two in unit limit (no more sniper in it). So you get the full range of infantry squad sizes, depending on what you focus. Mixed forces, elite para units or large inf waves.

Any time I reed one of your answer you just try to keep nerfing german army no balance at all man (no more snipers for PE) when only lufwaffe have 1 and SE. All Allies have snipers and CW in theirs regular squads,k what is wrong with you? It's about balance not just NERF AXIXS if you are going to NERF something you have to look the other side too. Example, when we talked about Lufwaffe air patrol we were agree with that OP ability needs to be NERF, I was completely agree with that NERF and then we did the same with allies patrol too, it was easier to escape but was a pain also so it got nerf too, when we talk about make Stuka plane a bit more efficient it's because at some point if you look Allies Air strike they have 2 tipes that can destroy armors and emplacement at the same time (heavy bombs). I am completely agree with Kwok about the size of the squads ( don't need to be smaller). I will let you here guys a good game I think is balance: 3 Airbornes and 1 RA vs 2 lufwaffe 1 BK dock and 1 defensive! enjoy it.
Keep nerfing Axis you are doing good

Dude, one of the big reasons PE losing games quickly sometimes (esspecially standard res) is that one damn lucky nade whipes you build squad and you have to re-invest over 300 MP again just to continue to upgrade the base.

PE is also a pain to play bc most of the time you can only sit behind your Hetzer and keep your 1-2 inf squads arround and then wait untill you get 1084876687677^10 MP to get two more units so that you can actually start playing and moving your units arround. And we have two ways to fix it:
1. Lower unit cost but that would include a nerf in core stats as their stats are extremley good.
2. Lower squad size but maintain the core stats in order to achieve lower costs.



Perhaps you should rather ask yourself if the reason why you lose such games is perhaps related to mobility and tactical issues due to the lack of units. If you have single powerfull units, you do get simply outplayed by cheaper once. They dont even have to beat you in battle, but just on scale and on tactical level. You can win as many battles as you can, it wont safe you from defeat if you cant take advantage of it or when you just run from one sector to defend to another one while sneaky cheap units take away territory thats not defended.




Getting back to the point. No one wants to nerf PE. Why would anyone want it. PE is my favorit faction due to its skin and emblems but i just dont like playing it bc its like you got an armored snail. Only brutal core stats for your units but extremely slowly in development and totally lacking possible unit combinations. Its like you play a card game where you can draw one card per turn, while all others can draw 5 cards per turn.

And i only said that we should get rid of these snipers within squads bc that makes squads just ovely expensive. Same goes for the AB HQ squad which i would wish to have no sniper, smaller size like a real command squad but therefore cheaper. Just like the new Luftwaffe 3 men HQ squad.



I want practical units. Thats all. If i want an SS assault squad for the attack, i dont get why i should pay for an sniper that i dont need. If i want a sniper, i build one.
I did not say "lets remove PE snipers". I said i want snipers removed out of squads. And that goes for PE SS squad as well as for the AB HQ squad.
Stop twisting my words.

this are the stats of the game

The K/D isnt really over the top for the allied. Only NeedCroquetas has pretty good K/D. And Figree with RA also only has slightly positiv K/D.
The main source of your "Score" is "Infantry". But thats related to the fact that all parachute reinforcments count as "Build" units and not "reinforced". If you keep clicking reinforce button on cheap 101st units, you get high scores real quick.
Also Veterancy levels dont provide points to axis or at least WH. So the "end score" says nothing. The more important scores are "Territory", and "Kills", "Losses".


And if you want to hear my personal opinion about the players:

Volkgrenadiers is either playing hardcore defense or he just waits for heavy tanks. And Wurf is also just waiting for either its falli troops or, when playing other docs, waiting for Tiger. In the last game i played against him he did nothing else but one nebler and then sitting down. The next unit he got was Tiger tank. The only reason he didnt lose was that his mates kept spamming inf and artillery against us. So when you have two sitting ducks in your team that dont contribute mich throughout mid game, i am not surprised of an bad outcome.

[mofetagalactica]

Most of the K/D ratio of needcrocketas was 'cause he spammed snipers wich easily adquired full vet trought the game + HQ airbone squad that has one more sniper.

Go to this post and say something about snipers they're stupidly broken and most of the time boring to play againts. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3425

[mofetagalactica]

If basic PE units can effectively work with Vehicles and as groups and the option to reinforce near the HT´s, i dont see why 4 men should not work. Also they perhaps have the option to be 5 men later.

As for Luft inf, they can start up 5 and later uping them to 6 men. And the SS squad, if you need durable inf squads, can be 6 men, later 7 and two in unit limit (no more sniper in it). So you get the full range of infantry squad sizes, depending on what you focus. Mixed forces, elite para units or large inf waves.

Any time I reed one of your answer you just try to keep nerfing german army no balance at all man (no more snipers for PE) when only lufwaffe have 1 and SE. All Allies have snipers and CW in theirs regular squads,k what is wrong with you? It's about balance not just NERF AXIXS if you are going to NERF something you have to look the other side too. Example, when we talked about Lufwaffe air patrol we were agree with that OP ability needs to be NERF, I was completely agree with that NERF and then we did the same with allies patrol too, it was easier to escape but was a pain also so it got nerf too, when we talk about make Stuka plane a bit more efficient it's because at some point if you look Allies Air strike they have 2 tipes that can destroy armors and emplacement at the same time (heavy bombs). I am completely agree with Kwok about the size of the squads ( don't need to be smaller). I will let you here guys a good game I think is balance: 3 Airbornes and 1 RA vs 2 lufwaffe 1 BK dock and 1 defensive! enjoy it.
Keep nerfing Axis you are doing good

Nerfing axis? We would have lost the game if we played again on the beta version wich i think WH and Luft can do muuch more compared to live version.

[CGarr]

Dude, one of the big reasons PE losing games quickly sometimes (esspecially standard res) is that one damn lucky nade whipes you build squad and you have to re-invest over 300 MP again just to continue to upgrade the base.

PE is also a pain to play bc most of the time you can only sit behind your Hetzer and keep your 1-2 inf squads arround and then wait untill you get 1084876687677^10 MP to get two more units so that you can actually start playing and moving your units arround. And we have two ways to fix it:
1. Lower unit cost but that would include a nerf in core stats as their stats are extremley good.
2. Lower squad size but maintain the core stats in order to achieve lower costs.



Perhaps you should rather ask yourself if the reason why you lose such games is perhaps related to mobility and tactical issues due to the lack of units. If you have single powerfull units, you do get simply outplayed by cheaper once. They dont even have to beat you in battle, but just on scale and on tactical level. You can win as many battles as you can, it wont safe you from defeat if you cant take advantage of it or when you just run from one sector to defend to another one while sneaky cheap units take away territory thats not defended.




Getting back to the point. No one wants to nerf PE. Why would anyone want it. PE is my favorit faction due to its skin and emblems but i just dont like playing it bc its like you got an armored snail. Only brutal core stats for your units but extremely slowly in development and totally lacking possible unit combinations. Its like you play a card game where you can draw one card per turn, while all others can draw 5 cards per turn.

And i only said that we should get rid of these snipers within squads bc that makes squads just ovely expensive. Same goes for the AB HQ squad which i would wish to have no sniper, smaller size like a real command squad but therefore cheaper. Just like the new Luftwaffe 3 men HQ squad.



I want practical units. Thats all. If i want an SS assault squad for the attack, i dont get why i should pay for an sniper that i dont need. If i want a sniper, i build one.
I did not say "lets remove PE snipers". I said i want snipers removed out of squads. And that goes for PE SS squad as well as for the AB HQ squad.
Stop twisting my words.

this are the stats of the game

The K/D isnt really over the top for the allied. Only NeedCroquetas has pretty good K/D. And Figree with RA also only has slightly positiv K/D.
The main source of your "Score" is "Infantry". But thats related to the fact that all parachute reinforcments count as "Build" units and not "reinforced". If you keep clicking reinforce button on cheap 101st units, you get high scores real quick.
Also Veterancy levels dont provide points to axis or at least WH. So the "end score" says nothing. The more important scores are "Territory", and "Kills", "Losses".


And if you want to hear my personal opinion about the players:

Volkgrenadiers is either playing hardcore defense or he just waits for heavy tanks. And Wurf is also just waiting for either its falli troops or, when playing other docs, waiting for Tiger. In the last game i played against him he did nothing else but one nebler and then sitting down. The next unit he got was Tiger tank. The only reason he didnt lose was that his mates kept spamming inf and artillery against us. So when you have two sitting ducks in your team that dont contribute mich throughout mid game, i am not surprised of an bad outcome.

Hawks explained the point I was making at the start of this thread better than I could. I personally think lowering luft inf stats a bit and making them cheaper while retaining 6 man squads would be the better option because it allows for more options in terms of map control and flanking. These squads should be closer to their allied equivalents, with good offensive stats and average durability (similar to core inf). In turn, they should be way cheaper so you can actually have more than 1 or 2 on the field at a time, seeing as how the doctrine's focus is on these inf and their supports (planes, some armor, and defensive structures).

Think of it this way, would you rather have 1 super elite squad that can just mop the floor with everything mindlessly until a hard counter shows up, or multiple less durable squads that can still cause tons of damage (and be in multiple places at once, allowing you to stay on the offensive in other places even when you are pushed back in one) but actually require good positioning?

I created this poll to see what peoples opinions were on the matter originally, as well as to get people into discussing the topic with the hope of new ideas possibly being brought up. Seeing as how all options have gotten a similar amount of votes (lowered stats on 6 man squads being higher than the rest, but not necessarily by a large degree), I will likely be posting a second poll (assuming the dev team doesn't post something similar) with the same question to see if people's opinions on the matter have changed after reading this discussion and initially casting their votes. Hopefully voters in the second poll will have read at least some of this thread and taken some inspiration (I'd like to hear more thoughts from both sides).

Additionally, I myself would vote for the second option now after having read the points brought up here in the thread, but my initial vote was for the third option. I am unsure of how to change my vote and I assume other users might be too (if it is even an option), which is why I am considering starting a second poll that refers to this thread.

[Wurf]

And Wurf is also just waiting for either its falli troops or, when playing other docs, waiting for Tiger.

- i really hope, thats tactics is not prohibited really thx, if not

In the last game i played against him he did nothing else but one nebler and then sitting down. The next unit he got was Tiger tank.

- last game, when we played any intensive game is very long ago (maybe 3-4 years), so it is useless to talk about it, with someone who plays it once a year with a player who plays it daily. BtW: why you not attack me, if i have only 2 untis...

The only reason he didnt lose was that his mates kept spamming inf and artillery against us.

- i hope again, thats tactics is not prohibited. Maybe it may help disable it

So when you have two sitting ducks in your team that dont contribute mich throughout mid game, i am not surprised of an bad outcome.

- this tell to my about 5000 PvPwins




- yeah, and yet I don't forget to add: Still keep nerfing Axis you are doing good

[CGarr]

And Wurf is also just waiting for either its falli troops or, when playing other docs, waiting for Tiger.

- i really hope, thats tactics is not prohibited really thx, if not

In the last game i played against him he did nothing else but one nebler and then sitting down. The next unit he got was Tiger tank.

- last game, when we played any intensive game is very long ago (maybe 3-4 years), so it is useless to talk about it, with someone who plays it once a year with a player who plays it daily. BtW: why you not attack me, if i have only 2 untis...

The only reason he didnt lose was that his mates kept spamming inf and artillery against us.

- i hope again, thats tactics is not prohibited. Maybe it may help disable it

So when you have two sitting ducks in your team that dont contribute mich throughout mid game, i am not surprised of an bad outcome.

- this tell to my about 5000 PvPwins

Kinda wanna watch you two play the beta, I think you'd both like it once you get used to the changes. Pretty much every axis doc got stronger except SE (which is fine as is) and TH which is going to pretty much become terror doc once the changes are pushed into the beta. US inf has a jackson and priest so theres more mobile play options, armor has calli jeep and the doctrine restructure feels more intuitive, only doc that really feels like it got worse is AB and thats just because the tree is still a mess and the AT strafe was underperforming (at least last time i used it, I think it might've been fixed).

- yeah, and yet I don't forget to add: Still keep nerfing Axis you are doing good

luft got way stronger lol, the tiger comes out fast and the officer squad they got makes them even stronger late game. They have less range when they first drop (before FG upgrades) but they still mow down all inf units with ease up close. At the time you can get first them, they're still easily the strongest inf in the game, the only difference is they're better late game and they have tigers to support them instead of panthers.