Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

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MenciusMoldbug
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Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

So I never really liked how Panzer Grenadiers are modeled in BK because they don't really act like 'Panzer Grenadiers' and more of a buffer unit that is a weaker version of Assault Grenadiers you are given in the beginning of the game. Their most important role is to actually build your base and when that is done they are no longer needed as their ability to repair tanks, build defenses, or be a good combat unit are fulfilled by better core PE units later in the game (Sturm Pioneers, Luftwaffe Troops, Assault Grens, etc.). So I thought of re-working them so they don't become an obsolete unit in the late game and even make them a core component of the Panzer Elite.

Image

The reason I want to really re-work the starting squad is mostly because being a builder unit making them super expensive at 325 MP to build can destroy the PE player if he loses the squad. To save that much manpower and wait for the squad to also rebuild in time to let the player tech-up is almost a death sentence when facing a competent allied players. As they will push you in knowing that you can't actually build any important structures needed to counter whatever they are doing in time. So by making the squad smaller it will serve the purpose of letting the PE player at least not lag behind everyone else if mistakes/RNG had given them a bad day. It also lets the Infantry Halftrack be utilized to its full potential as the one thing that halftrack desperately needs is a small squad to fit in and go shoot stuff up as it only has 3 firing slots on the top of its roof for infantry models.

This also brings me to another rework I would like to see of PGrens and that is giving them buffs when they are around vehicles. Being 'Panzer' Grenadiers they should work in close conjunction with the vehicle/armor support and do combined assaults with them and not just be another infantry squad you move around to shoot at stuff. Depending on how powerful these buffs are they can equalize the difference between their smaller squad sizes vs larger squads of allied infantry. Adding this type of stuff in also helps me bring back Group Zeal in a way. Except it is re-worked as to not provide a flat buff for all models grouped together (as that's a bad idea in BK). It is instead an ability that will provide another set of buffs when around tanks that is stackable with buffs around light vehicles; when these two buffs are combined the awesome power of PGrens is truly unleashed (or atleast should be considering how rare it is to see a light vehicle and a tank roaming around together sometimes).

Even if everything else about PE stays the same, like 7 man late game Heavy Assault Grenadiers; PE desperately needs an buildable cheap infantry unit as only having expensive squads around to use when being utilized in big maps (narrow maps they kind of do ok) cripples their ability to maneuver; with most players just opting to spam scout cars and kettenkrads if the map is really huge. Although having a small squad might seem weak; I gave them later weapon upgrades in the form of an LMG34 or another set of G43s(max weapon slots for this squad will be 4 so they can't get anymore weapons after their second set of upgrades) so they are still 'good' later in the game in the face of allied elite infantry. They might not need it if the buffs in conjunction with vehicles are utilized/good-enough but this is all theoretical so I can't say for sure.

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Walderschmidt
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Walderschmidt »

I really like this idea.

You have my support.

Wald

P.S. Excellent visual presentation of your ideas
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sgtToni95
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by sgtToni95 »

Cool idea, expecially the buff around vehicles thing. Great presentation and argumentation.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Warhawks97 »

I went a similiar approach in my private experiments. I also gave them an lmg as option and lots of G43. The idea of buffs near light vehicles is just great.

But i think bonus MP income right from the start isnt needed. At least i didnt feel so. I have also shortened the build time by a half second per model and and combination with less models the build time dropped from 48 seconds to 30 seconds. I also dropped the cost to 240 per men (which remained same after 5th men upgrade). Also added the unit to the Infantry building as well. I could get quite an ammount of them out quite quickly. But also a quick fielding of two Pgren squads and one Halftrack or scout car was quite quickly possible.


But i went along with the 4 men squad with 5th men upgrade for all squads. The SS squad however lost its sniper, dropped the cost and increased limit to two squads. So you have cheap Pgrens right away, flexible assault pios and assault grens in small tactical squads to make better use of a inf/Tank combo. Esspecially less men on assault pios helped in so far as they could do their job much easier: Blowing up emplacments. Their cost were same as Pgren one. So if you wanted to blow something up, you didnt have to wait for 360 MP just to get one stormpio squad.

In case you did need larger infantry squads for infantry focused combat, you could go with two SS squads, each 6 or 7 men (sniper converted into normal entity) for 450 to 500 MP.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

@Warhawks But if i may assume, in your version, G43 wasnt infamous blaster with tricky crit system..



Aside of that, i like this concept too, something really between vCoh PE and what was for BKmod.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Warhawks97 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:@Warhawks But if i may assume, in your version, G43 wasnt infamous blaster with tricky crit system..
lets say it got sane values. But since K98 average damage was upped from 25 to 30 it doesnt really matter that G43 has in average 31,5 damage but less accuracy than the new K98 lasers.

It helds an advantage in rof and reload and mag capacity.


Aside of that, i like this concept too, something really between vCoh PE and what was for BKmod.

vcoh had actually quite many good features which i really got to see working when i played vcoh for a while. Thats why i started mixing good stuff from both sides. Like the flexibility in building buildings instead of pre-set clear tec lines. Also gun stats (esspecially 76 gun for sherman) where better there.

PE made a lot more fun to play in vcoh with all these combinations possible. And i am hoping to get some touch of it back into BK.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Yes, i totally agree, but the very core thing for PE/vCoh, was that blob aura. 1 squad made of 3 guys is nothing, but 2-3 squads, has insta rek power, i fear that this remake proposition might end up being something like that too.
And we all know how blobs are treated..
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Warhawks97
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Warhawks97 »

That blobb you talk about was the former "Zeal" upgrade which boosted the Pgrens for every Pgren nearby. But that wont be the case with this new Zeal upgrade. And also damage systems are different, which is the reason why we cant go down to 3 men. 4 men is really the limit here and even here full whipes can occure (but thats why it gets cheap and faster to rebuild in this entire idea).
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

I think there was something else. Zeal was upgradable, but by default they had something..i just cant recall anymore

Exactly cause damage systems are different, g43 is different and crowded, this could go wrong.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Warhawks97 »

idliketoplaybetter wrote:I think there was something else. Zeal was upgradable, but by default they had something..i just cant recall anymore
They had also a totally different vet system. Exp for example was also given to nearby troops and they could boost either their offense with each vet or defense. If ypu had zeal and three times def bonus, they really became unkillable. I think thats what you had in mind.
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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by idliketoplaybetter »

Yes, right. Shared exp. How could i forget that thing :DDDD Been years maan
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by mofetagalactica »

I can support this idea, i like it.

1)But im also afraid that getting so many cool stuff only for pzgreens will make the current heavy assault greens and assault pio totally not needed, once i get the +1 squad upgrade i wouldn't really want to maky any HAG or AP, and i would just make the 400 officer with his SS squad call in.

(2) So im not sure if the group zeal and light vehicle aura should be exclusively for pzgreens or for HAG and AP or for everyone?

(3) Not sure about the resource compensation, i think we could discuss about building costs mp/f wise but not resource compensation, mg halftrack + infantry + 37 at is pretty easy to pull off on the current beta with current starting res.

Unless you have any new package ideas for HAG/AP like starting weapons/upgrades/buffs/number of models then point 1 and 2 will be something stuck in my head.

All i can think is off for now is HAG/AP starts with 5 models HAG starts with 2 stg's like current AP and AP starts with 5 mp40's (and maybe a super slight price reduction)

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Warhawks97
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Warhawks97 »

mofetagalactica wrote:I can support this idea, i like it.

1)But im also afraid that getting so many cool stuff only for pzgreens will make the current heavy assault greens and assault pio totally not needed, once i get the +1 squad upgrade i wouldn't really want to maky any HAG or AP, and i would just make the 400 officer with his SS squad call in.

Heavy assault grens have more HP and perhaps (thats what i did for me) cap at 175% cap rate after faster cap unlock. In comparisson, they currently go up to 125% while Rifles and WH grens cap at 150%.

So heavy assault grens are fast capping units later. Also they have better core weapon stats.

(2) So im not sure if the group zeal and light vehicle aura should be exclusively for pzgreens or for HAG and AP or for everyone?[/quote]

i would make them for everyone. Simply they are actually all Panzergrens with repair abilties etc.


Unless you have any new package ideas for HAG/AP like starting weapons/upgrades/buffs/number of models then point 1 and 2 will be something stuck in my head.
HAG have, as mentioned, better core stats, start of with one stg or perhaps even two and can be fully loaded with STG.
AP start with stg and full MP40 loadout. They have special abilties which will make them usefull for certain situations.
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MenciusMoldbug
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

Yeah, you can switch up the idea because I am just creating the theoretical groundwork for changing of PGrens; if people want it to apply to infantry units like Heavy Grens for PE I'm ok with that too. I limited myself to simply PGrens for the sake of simplicity as getting into other stuff would mean explaining stuff even more.

So I thought about what icons we could use to indicate the different buffs PE inf would get being next to vehicles and I thought why not just use the base icons from VCoH.

Image

So Offensive buffs will have the Offensive Veterancy Symbol for the infantry and Defensive buffs will have the Defensive Veterancy Symbol. Also the reason I didn't give defensive bonuses for infantry from tanks or make it one big bonus is because having harder to hit infantry units like PGrens getting that and another stack of bonus from being next to a vehicle (vehicle cover). Is because it could make odd situations where PGrens repairing tanks could shrug of small arms. So I'm trying to avoid that situation by splitting the buffs. I'm also thinking the same type of buff doesn't stack multiple times, so the two buffs can be combined together but it doesn't stack with multiple units of the same type (like Leutenant buffs triple stack when 3 of them are together with an infantry unit).

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Warhawks97
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Warhawks97 »

inf in BK already get defensive bonuses anyway. They must be close to it though.
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CGarr
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by CGarr »

I really like the ideas that have been brought up here, was about to make a similar post regarding future ideas for luft doc inf to try and get a general idea of where stand on the idea of making the squads cheaper but weaker so that luft players can spread out a bit more and wipes aren't quite as punishing. As for non doctrinal PE inf, I think these buffs would work pretty well as long as they dont stack, as stacking buffs might get kind of absurd with how many vehicles PE players generally have on the field fighting alongside their inf in a game (usually 2 if not more).

G43's make sense on Pgrens, but LMG's might be a bit of a stretch and they should probably have different MG's from the HAG's (mg34 vs mg42) with lower stats. Main issue I see with MG's on normal Pgren's is that they already have pretty deadly medium-long range damage output, with MG's they'd just melt anything that comes at them and most allied inf isn't going to compete at long range so thats generally the only option. Not saying they should be weak, G43's as is do pretty good damage and should stay that way but having a weapon that does quick bursts of huge amounts of damage available on a squad that can already kill multiple approaching ranger models before losing one of their own with just g43's (and just mows down riflemen with ease) doesn't seem like a good idea, especially at 250 MP a squad and alongside buffs. MG's make sense on the wehr inf because they have relatively low stats without them in comparison to the PE inf, so the MG provides the necessary firepower to keep them relevant late game amidst actual elite inf, similar to rifleman weapon upgrades. Pgrens on the other hand, assuming they get their G43's, have no problem staying relevant late game, and would likely retain this status even with less men in each squad (which the vehicle buffs would probably balance out) and the total amount of men present on the field would probably not be much different considering the lower squad cost.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by mofetagalactica »

Warhawks97 wrote:inf in BK already get defensive bonuses anyway. They must be close to it though.
waaaaay too close, if the same defensive bonus get a little bit bigger shouldn't be a problem and could be actually used properly.

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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

So looking at the new roadmap there was some talk about changing Tank Hunters because it sounds too specialized towards countering some doctrines. So I thought of changing it to this:

Image

So Luftwaffe will be focused on luftwaffe infantry, light defenses (88/flaks/mines), and air call-ins. SE is probably all around denying enemy key positions and arty. TH is turned into a tank/combined arms doctrine.

PE Vehicle Aura Buff and PE Tank Aura Buff is stuff I just said here about giving PE inf buffs next to vehicles/tanks. PE Tank Commander Arty Call-in is like US Armor Doc's Arty Call-in for tanks. PE Inf marking tanks is to remove the mark target from TD's for TH since it was mainly used for marking everything they were coming into contact with and replacing it with smart mark targeting. Where if PE inf mark a tank any unit shooting at it gets like a +50% accuracy bonus against it. I honestly put it to fill the empty slot with something so someone else can probably think of better things than me.

Basically the doc has no good multi role units early or mid. It must rely on anti inf infantry and anti tank armor units. Like terror it has to wait some time before the big stuff roles in.

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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by CGarr »

MenciusMoldbug wrote:So looking at the new roadmap there was some talk about changing Tank Hunters because it sounds too specialized towards countering some doctrines. So I thought of changing it to this:

Image

So Luftwaffe will be focused on luftwaffe infantry, light defenses (88/flaks/mines), and air call-ins. SE is probably all around denying enemy key positions and arty. TH is turned into a tank/combined arms doctrine.

PE Vehicle Aura Buff and PE Tank Aura Buff is stuff I just said here about giving PE inf buffs next to vehicles/tanks. PE Tank Commander Arty Call-in is like US Armor Doc's Arty Call-in for tanks. PE Inf marking tanks is to remove the mark target from TD's for TH since it was mainly used for marking everything they were coming into contact with and replacing it with smart mark targeting. Where if PE inf mark a tank any unit shooting at it gets like a +50% accuracy bonus against it. I honestly put it to fill the empty slot with something so someone else can probably think of better things than me.

Basically the doc has no good multi role units early or mid. It must rely on anti inf infantry and anti tank armor units. Like terror it has to wait some time before the big stuff roles in.
This looks really good, I'd imagine it'd play like blitz late game if blitz was actually able to do something about heavies aside from just gambling with panthers. In exchange it does worse against defensive play due to lack of emplacement killers aside from maybe Jagdtiger, so it remains balanced. Fits the tank hunter role without relying on only casemate TD's which is a nice change, should make the doc less of a static wall of steel while still retaining it's role of countering armor. Inf are reasonably strong by default with PE but they aren't comparable to elite inf doctrines and none can really crawl to kill emplacements more easily, so assault pio rush through smoke would probably be their only option as far as inf goes. They would get abilities that would be useful in a combined arms tank-hunting role though, so there's also that. Arty is lacking aside from the rocket tank and mortar HT (in fairness these two aren't bad, assuming they'd still be in the doc) but this doctrine is obviously more heavily based around inf working alongside armor to push the enemy line back rather than hammering a spot in the line with explosives (stuka bomb, mortar, panzerwerfer, bundle nades) and then flooding it with mediums and assault inf the way blitz does.

Edit: You should prob make a separate thread for this so it gets more attention, devs are looking for new ideas for this doc if the Roadmap is anything to go off of so it'd make sense to get the community talking about what should be done with that doctrine. If not I'll post it in a few days.

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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by kwok »

Copy and pasting from my other post:

In my old CoH2 mod I experimented with a set up where regular large squads existed as well as smaller squads with much more utility. For example, larger squads did not have grenades or sprint while smaller squads did. What ended up happening was players completely ignored the small squads and only used the large ones.

Having small squads is much more micro intense and the squad itself is significantly less powerful. If the squad is 4 instead of 6 men, the effectiveness of the squad doesn't just go down 1/3, but much more. Just as an example scenario, say you face a double sniper. With a 6 man squad, you have essentially 2 cooldowns worth of time to execute a tactic before you are reduced to 2 men and decide to retreat. With a 4 man squad, after the initial single volley from double snipers, you would want to immediately retreat.

We are testing this idea right now with the assault squad in brits but you can see immediately players are calling for a way to expand that squad size without even trying the patch yet.

Personally, I really like the IDEA but really advise against implementing. Overall I'm extremely nervous to say to implement this idea at a faction level because it turns the entire faction into a high micro risk-reward playstyle. This could cut out a lot of not as skilled players from playing a faction they want to play. If you all really do like the idea, I'd rather see this idea implemented at a doctrine level.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by mofetagalactica »

kwok wrote:Copy and pasting from my other post:

In my old CoH2 mod I experimented with a set up where regular large squads existed as well as smaller squads with much more utility. For example, larger squads did not have grenades or sprint while smaller squads did. What ended up happening was players completely ignored the small squads and only used the large ones.

Having small squads is much more micro intense and the squad itself is significantly less powerful. If the squad is 4 instead of 6 men, the effectiveness of the squad doesn't just go down 1/3, but much more. Just as an example scenario, say you face a double sniper. With a 6 man squad, you have essentially 2 cooldowns worth of time to execute a tactic before you are reduced to 2 men and decide to retreat. With a 4 man squad, after the initial single volley from double snipers, you would want to immediately retreat.

We are testing this idea right now with the assault squad in brits but you can see immediately players are calling for a way to expand that squad size without even trying the patch yet.

Personally, I really like the IDEA but really advise against implementing. Overall I'm extremely nervous to say to implement this idea at a faction level because it turns the entire faction into a high micro risk-reward playstyle. This could cut out a lot of not as skilled players from playing a faction they want to play. If you all really do like the idea, I'd rather see this idea implemented at a doctrine level.
Fix the goddamn stupidly op snipers then

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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by kwok »

mofetagalactica wrote:
Fix the goddamn stupidly op snipers then
How many times did I tell people including you to make a post about snipers?
Only finally you made this: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3425
Congrats. It will finally be considered. Now get consensus and dont blame devs if snipers get reworked into the ground.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Rethinking Panzer Grenadiers

Post by Warhawks97 »

MenciusMoldbug wrote:So looking at the new roadmap there was some talk about changing Tank Hunters because it sounds too specialized towards countering some doctrines. So I thought of changing it to this:

Image

So Luftwaffe will be focused on luftwaffe infantry, light defenses (88/flaks/mines), and air call-ins. SE is probably all around denying enemy key positions and arty. TH is turned into a tank/combined arms doctrine.

PE Vehicle Aura Buff and PE Tank Aura Buff is stuff I just said here about giving PE inf buffs next to vehicles/tanks. PE Tank Commander Arty Call-in is like US Armor Doc's Arty Call-in for tanks. PE Inf marking tanks is to remove the mark target from TD's for TH since it was mainly used for marking everything they were coming into contact with and replacing it with smart mark targeting. Where if PE inf mark a tank any unit shooting at it gets like a +50% accuracy bonus against it. I honestly put it to fill the empty slot with something so someone else can probably think of better things than me.

Basically the doc has no good multi role units early or mid. It must rely on anti inf infantry and anti tank armor units. Like terror it has to wait some time before the big stuff roles in.

I am not so much agreeing to that. Its not bad, but there branches that dont make sense to me and units that are perhaps not needed. I dont think Nashorn has a point in this doctrine anymore when it is about going offensive in the future.



1. First of all, i would center all follow-on unlocks of Tanks arround Tank IV H/J that can be unlocked right after 1 CP. From there on you can go down a line to Hetzer/JagdpanzerIV/48 and IV/70. The second line from Tank IV is Panther and from there to Jagdpanther. The Third tec is Tiger, King Tiger and finally Jagdtiger. Nashorn doesnt fit in this doc anymore i would say.

Panther <-Panzer IV H/J- >Tiger ->King Tiger
I I I
Jagdpanther Hetzer/JP Jagdtiger
I
Jagdpanzer IV/70




2. I would link Tank awareness and Tank veterancy crew.

3. I wouldnt give them Off-Map commander strike. I think it would make certain units totally overperforming. Some units can literally withstand every allied AT very well with exception of SP perhaps, have a massive gun and several abilties such as long range shot etc. Adding off map arty would make some of them totally overperforming and add unnecessary overkill capabilties. I prefer to add some sort of veterancy for AT squads here. If they get some sort of rocket arty, it would be totally fair.





kwok wrote:Copy and pasting from my other post:

In my old CoH2 mod I experimented with a set up where regular large squads existed as well as smaller squads with much more utility. For example, larger squads did not have grenades or sprint while smaller squads did. What ended up happening was players completely ignored the small squads and only used the large ones.

Having small squads is much more micro intense and the squad itself is significantly less powerful. If the squad is 4 instead of 6 men, the effectiveness of the squad doesn't just go down 1/3, but much more. Just as an example scenario, say you face a double sniper. With a 6 man squad, you have essentially 2 cooldowns worth of time to execute a tactic before you are reduced to 2 men and decide to retreat. With a 4 man squad, after the initial single volley from double snipers, you would want to immediately retreat.

We are testing this idea right now with the assault squad in brits but you can see immediately players are calling for a way to expand that squad size without even trying the patch yet.

Personally, I really like the IDEA but really advise against implementing. Overall I'm extremely nervous to say to implement this idea at a faction level because it turns the entire faction into a high micro risk-reward playstyle. This could cut out a lot of not as skilled players from playing a faction they want to play. If you all really do like the idea, I'd rather see this idea implemented at a doctrine level.


Brits is not PE. They have only one real building to get stuff from right from start unlike PE that can recruit in multiple buildings. Each model has also more HP than CW one. Simply saying: PE design is already made up for small squads that can work together with vehicles, which is their main purpose and to fight in groups or small tactical groups, depending on situation. They only thing that needs to be assured is that you can fight along with vehicles right from the start and that sufficient infantry recruitment pools are available.

For example stuff like basic Pgrens could be added to the logistic center as well so that you can recruit infantry quicker even when you decide to build logistic company first.

Vise versa can the Halftrack be added to Kampfgruppe company so that you have the option to get Halftracks no matter which building you get first.
And that in turn means, that the lack of men per squad can be compensated by having early on the ability to reinforce upfront. We need to ensure that this wont get a bit OP. Perhaps the build time of the HT in Kampfgruppe takes a bit longer as to build it in the Logistic company to have some drawback.
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