76 Sherman CP Unlock

[kwok]

Here viper. Have fun discussing. Depending on discussions here maybe we'd be able to fit it into the next patch but I think we are closing the changelog for that soon.

[Viper]

this subject was discussed many times within different topics......but thanks for creating it.

what's there to say......delay 76 shermans by 3 more command points in all american doctrines.
except for armor doctrine, 2 more command points only.

[mofetagalactica]

As far as i would go on delaying and then testing it after would be like adding +1cp to all current cp needed, +1 upgrade tank depot, but reworking all 75mm shermans tables againts early pz4 / Pz3n / stug's.

Also if its possible check 75mm stats againts jagdpanzers i think something weird is happening.

[CGarr]

1 maybe, 2 or 3 seems excessive. These things trade horribly with pz4 f2's (which are now a 0cp unit) since the fight is generally 50/50 since both sides need to use AP to pen eachother (not sure why, both have pretty hard hitting guns) and the sherman 76 costs significantly more. They could potentially be annoying with the armor upgrades but even then, 2 of the 3 WH docs will have guns big enough to negate that and 1 shot the things, and blitz will generally get countered by armor anyways since pershings will also probably hit the field at some point and jacksons are an option.

[Walderschmidt]

Delay by 1 CP, pls.

Maybe give Sherman 75mm more pen chance at middle/close distance?

Wald

[kwok]

Sigh... Boba keeps messaging me to post this for him. I wouldn't let him post his original text, here's his toned down nicer version:

Dude, Viper, too much absurd in your messages, like it is sort of provocation.
So you suggesting making whole unlock of 76mm at the cost of 5 cp? Nice, in blitzkrieg you get unlock and ability for 4 cp, and here you trying to force allied players to jerk on just for 76mm (just like CP cost of KT, ha-ha). Try something else.
Also, yeah, it will need 75mm to be buffed against those mediums, otherwise fast axis GG will be too ez. Stug needs 1-2 CP on blitzkrieg, and 2 on Terror. And it's fine, since it's counter part (sherman 75mm) can't do shit against it.

[Viper]

is he aware 76 sherman cost in armor only 1 command point right now?
how will it be 5 command points if we add 2 more ? he needs to use a calculator.

panzer4 ausf.h require 4 points in blitzkrieg doctrine. just for his information.

[idliketoplaybetter]

But why delaying it in a first place?

[Viper]

i asked the same question when panzer4 was delayed too much.

honestly i prefer panzer4 to be a bit earlier. instead of delaying 76 sherman.

[idliketoplaybetter]

But why delaying it? What is the cause, what caused this thought? why p4 should be earlier and 76 just later?

whats an argument? yet you havent came with ur point of view, ill try to explain mine. specifically addressing your statement of "you were asking the same question before/pz4 issue 5.17patch).

So yet since i joined bkmod, i believe like minimum 5 patches ago, i've had occasionally experienced same pattern that has been used by specific players, on rather specific maps. That is very core thing of my statement. Very few players, with their own distinctive strats.

And that was, that they were rushing for pz4 on tunnely maps with at least 1 medium fuel that can be abused. Back then though, there was no such thing as HE shell killing zooks, nor was "aim" delay for zooks, so that was very tricky gameplay.

Im unsure if u were around those days to experience that gamble.

Even now, on 5.17, there are two guys, playing Autry and so on, doing PE/WM very fast bkdoc and SE(?) for simple doubling 1 unit. Their nicknames are Yuri boyka and cant recall the other guy.

They are doing one same thing.

Funny thing also, its that u dont go for "sherman spam" to counter it, u have to go for pershing, in case if ur capable of withstanding it.

So i can see why pz4 may to be asked for being delayed (from 5/17). Although, in my eyes, once players and map is more less fair, there is no need in changing it.
Also, i havent seen much of early sherman rushing, or, considering fact that shreks are tend to be more lucky with "1 shotting it", that could be an issue.

Nor i can see reasoning for making Sherman76 earlier, however, it is a question of further, new gameplay, that is coming from Beta and future doctrinal metas.

[Warhawks97]

For historical reasons, it would make sense to have the Panzer IV H/J being unlocked earlier as 76 shermans. At the time the axis used long barrled tank IV´s already, the production of 76 shermans did not even start. Their first appearance on the battlefield was july 44 in limited numbers.

But for gameplay reasons, the difference between tank IV and sherman 76 just wouldnt allow 76 to be unlocked after Tank IV H/J. The 76 stands 50:50 fight against the the now 0 CP f2 version. I obsereved various games now where sometimes two Tank IV F2 and two 76 shermans had a stalemate with neither side able to make real gains. Facing each other, bouncing several shots, one tank gets damaged, retreates but in the long run neither side made gains. And it would be a balance issue when one with a 3 or 4 CP tank cant overcome the other side that didnt spend a single CP for its units. Thats a massive tec imbalance. Not to mention the cost difference.


So i would only be fine with delaying 76 shermans, even behind Tank IV H/J, if the 76 shermans and esspecially the easy eight would be the top medium tank of the game, only surpased by Panthers. Everything else is nuts.


Also shermans could be more resistant to 50 m AT gun from axis. Even the slopped 50 mm stuart armor could bounce 50 mm shells sometimes.

I just dont see how 50 mm of unslopped armor can offer such good protection against pretty much everything but 90 mm guns. The 50 mm gun is also overrated when compared to the 57 mm gun which had clear advantages. But in game 50 mm slopped armor is just as good as 50 mm of unslopped armor, if at all. Ok the german steel and esspecially 50 mm plates had high BHN values and early shermans had design flaws which affected the protection, but still.



The philosophy would more be that axis go first for firepower with its L43 gun on the F2 version but having poor armor, putting the F2 more in a fire support role for units like better armored tank III N´s. The shermans have the better armor at first. Both sides have fair chances to kill each other in 1 vs 1. Later, the 76 shermans and esspecially easy eight would surpass so far all other mediums. In 1 vs 1 with H/J versions both would have good chances to pen each other. But the shermans getting a better boost of their special AP, have better frontal armor vs medium AT guns, better mobility and more HP.
The Tank IV´s would be cheaper at each level, with the J version being the cheapest medium tank of its class.

[mofetagalactica]

Funny thing also, its that u dont go for "sherman spam" to counter it, u have to go for pershing, in case if ur capable of withstanding it.

So i can see why pz4 may to be asked for being delayed (from 5/17). Although, in my eyes, once players and map is more less fair, there is no need in changing it.
Also, i havent seen much of early sherman rushing, or, considering fact that shreks are tend to be more lucky with "1 shotting it", that could be an issue.

Nor i can see reasoning for making Sherman76 earlier, however, it is a question of further, new gameplay, that is coming from Beta and future doctrinal metas.

Sherman spam isn't used that much in live version because:
-Dumb double shoot while cammo for axis TD's
-Dumb "phantom"/"evasion" stats that Axis TD's had
-Dumb super OP henschell run of luftwaffe


At least 2 of 3 of these things where already fixed and if we get the new toggeabble command auras for tanks and the stupid henschell run fixed or removed like how the usa airpatrol was removed then i would totally go for sherman mix spam.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Yes, so im just confused, if 1 was the case and possible for abuse now fixed by being delayed (pz4s). Why contrary is asked for something that worked and yet not revealed itself as problem? (sherman rush).
However and that is my best guess, as well as for not seing so called "arty" problem, its just the case of 3v3/4v4 games i just dont tend to play.

[mofetagalactica]

Yes, so im just confused, if 1 was the case and possible for abuse now fixed by being delayed (pz4s). Why contrary is asked for something that worked and yet not revealed itself as problem? (sherman rush).
However and that is my best guess, as well as for not seing so called "arty" problem, its just the case of 3v3/4v4 games i just dont tend to play.

I mean like, if they just nerf armor of early pz4 versions and stug3/4 vs 75mm shermans there shouldn't be any problem with delaying 76's, the current problem may be that 76's are comming almost at the same time that stug4 final vers, in wich sherman 76's has better odds, wich makes you delay or lost resources that forces you to make more stugs instead of trying to tech for pz4's.

And as warhawks said i think 76's should be delayed even more than pz4's but with better stats overall mostly E8 wich should be the second best medium tank of the game below panthers, and please get rid of the "concrete reinforcement" for shermans its super stupid and it didn't really help for anything in real life, sandbags can maybe stay.

[Warhawks97]

And as warhawks said i think 76's should be delayed even more than pz4's but with better stats overall mostly E8 wich should be the second best medium tank of the game below panthers, and please get rid of the "concrete reinforcement" for shermans its super stupid and it didn't really help for anything in real life, sandbags can maybe stay.

well, in game it boosts your armor by quite an ammount. But i think it also makes you accelerate less quick.

[mofetagalactica]

And as warhawks said i think 76's should be delayed even more than pz4's but with better stats overall mostly E8 wich should be the second best medium tank of the game below panthers, and please get rid of the "concrete reinforcement" for shermans its super stupid and it didn't really help for anything in real life, sandbags can maybe stay.

well, in game it boosts your armor by quite an ammount. But i think it also makes you accelerate less quick.

If they're going to get better stats and way more delayed then there is no need for concrete reinforcement to keep existing, 76w should be buffed just a litle big more than what they are now (+5% pen chances vs pz4j/h) and e8 should be a shittier panther (+5% pen chances vs pz4j/h , +10% resistant to pz4 j/h guns (75mm)) maybe the concrete model can stay as default for the e8 just as cosmetic with no loss of movement.

[Warhawks97]

76w should be buffed just a litle big more than what they are now (+5% pen chances vs pz4j/h)

you mean to increase max range pen chance from 49,68% to 54,68%?
Or the core value from 1.15 to 1.2 which would result in 51,84% pen at max range?



Either way, it would still be a tough gamble.

and e8 should be a shittier panther +10% resistant to pz4 j/h guns (75mm)

Same question as above. Also we only have one sherman target table. The 76 shermans and easy eights just use their own received penetration modifier. So any armor buff on one type of sherman would make this one more resistant to any incoming shots. If you want to balance that out by making all other weapons stats better against easy eight, then all shermans would be affected.

Anyway, same question as above. If we would tune down the pen chance of Panzer IV vs easy eight by cutting 10 points down from current max range pen chance, we would then end up at 52,853% pen chance of tank IV H/J agaisnt easy eight (sandbags not included).
Currently tank IV H/J have 53,425% chance to pen sandbagged easy eight.

maybe the concrete model can stay as default for the e8 just as cosmetic with no loss of movement.

I do like to see the pure version. Sometimes i only get frontal sandbags to boost HP without losing speed. I get second sandbags usually only when i face tanks and guns which dont have like 200% base pen against my tanks where sandbags wouldnt help to bounce shots anyways.

[mofetagalactica]

76w should be buffed just a litle big more than what they are now (+5% pen chances vs pz4j/h)

you mean to increase max range pen chance from 49,68% to 54,68%?
Or the core value from 1.15 to 1.2 which would result in 51,84% pen at max range?



Either way, it would still be a tough gamble.

and e8 should be a shittier panther +10% resistant to pz4 j/h guns (75mm)

Same question as above. Also we only have one sherman target table. The 76 shermans and easy eights just use their own received penetration modifier. So any armor buff on one type of sherman would make this one more resistant to any incoming shots. If you want to balance that out by making all other weapons stats better against easy eight, then all shermans would be affected.

Anyway, same question as above. If we would tune down the pen chance of Panzer IV vs easy eight by cutting 10 points down from current max range pen chance, we would then end up at 52,853% pen chance of tank IV H/J agaisnt easy eight (sandbags not included).
Currently tank IV H/J have 53,425% chance to pen sandbagged easy eight.

maybe the concrete model can stay as default for the e8 just as cosmetic with no loss of movement.

I do like to see the pure version. Sometimes i only get frontal sandbags to boost HP without losing speed. I get second sandbags usually only when i face tanks and guns which dont have like 200% base pen against my tanks where sandbags wouldnt help to bounce shots anyways.

In resume Sherman 76 max distance pen chances againts pz4 J/H should be up 50% and max distance received pen chance againts 76 below 50% , if there is any way to separate armor stats for E8 and 76w it would be welcome (i would still never go for a super drastic change on pen chances like you may suggest)

[Warhawks97]

76 and e8 use Sherman tt. The 76 has a 0.85 received pen modifier. So no, we don't have seperate tt. The unskirted panzer IV J also shares tt with regular f2 version which have just 50 mm armor. The skirted however uses own tt. Buffing 76 vs early tank IV while keeping it same against h and j would either mean skirts add a huge protection bonus or tank iv in general stay strong in armor.

The 17 pdrs have also always guaranteed pen VS tank iv. The gap between 76 and 17 pdr would be huge. The 76 with ambush or HVAP rounds would not come close to basic 17 pdrs. And a firefly is not far away from easy eights in terms of cost.

[MEFISTO]

Hahah what? This whole post does’t make sense at less for me, why do you want 3 more CP to unlock a Sherman 76 in AB and Infantry dock? No reason for that when you should focus in your doctrine advantages and those Sherman should be a complement no reason for 3 or 2 CP. Also what is this about to buff Sherman’s 76 vs all medium Axis tanks in reward 3 CP more? Really? When you can spam then in Armor doctrine for cheap and upgrade them with sands bags smoke etc...also talking about nerf(even more) 50pack vs Shermans actually it’s hard to penetrate them with a 50pack and don’t forget these Sherman’s price compare to a Panther or tiger hahaha don’t make me laugh! Ohhh I almos forget that you also want to buff Sherman’s 75, should we do the same with the OP PIII or PIV short barrel? To have some ban lance then?

[Warhawks97]

Hopefully you have noticed that Tank III´s cost currently less than shermans. F2 less than normal 75 mm sherman, H and J can be spammed also quite cheap.

The US cant spam more shermans than axis can spam Tank IV´s. When compare Mass production on US side, then compare pls to axis massproduction as well. The US dont get a longer barreld tank like germans get the F2 for now. So yes, buff of 76 gun against tank IV´s is almost a must happen now bc Tank IV´s are cheaper, the basic long barrled version doesnt cost CP and yet they can go 1 vs 1 with equal/better armor and better guns.



The E8 prior to mass production unlock costs just 160 MP less than a Panther D. But the Panther bounces 17 pdrs almost as good as shermans bounce 50 mm pak, even better. The 17 pdr has a 53,1% chance to pen Panther D without skirts. The 50 mm pens easy eight with 38,8065% at max range and with 40% against normal 76 version.



So, where exactly do i make you laugh? I am sorry if you are unable to get these things straight and that you dont get the sense behind it.

[MEFISTO]

I am at work, but I will gaste my time giving you an answer when I get home, see you later

[MenciusMoldbug]

I've been thinking about this for a bit but how about giving shermans white phosphorous rounds like the Chaffee and Hellcat has them so they can stun/blind enemy tanks? So shermans won't be able to win in a 'fair fight' but they can cripple the enemy tanks for sometime like the hellcat usually does if people ignore it for too long.

and I'm getting that idea from reading this:

US Sherman tanks carried the M64, a 75mm white phosphorus round intended for screening and artillery spotting, but tank crews found it useful against German tanks such as the Panther that their APC ammunition could not penetrate at long range. Smoke from rounds fired directly at German tanks would be used to blind them, allowing the Shermans to close to a range where their armour-piercing rounds were effective. In addition, due to the turret ventilation systems sucking in fumes, German crews would sometimes be forced to abandon their vehicle: this proved particularly effective against inexperienced crews who, on seeing smoke inside the turret, would assume their tank had caught fire.[6] Smoke was also used for "silhouetting" enemy vehicles, with rounds dropped behind them to produce a better contrast for gunnery.

[mofetagalactica]

Hopefully you have noticed that Tank III´s cost currently less than shermans. F2 less than normal 75 mm sherman, H and J can be spammed also quite cheap.

The US cant spam more shermans than axis can spam Tank IV´s. When compare Mass production on US side, then compare pls to axis massproduction as well. The US dont get a longer barreld tank like germans get the F2 for now. So yes, buff of 76 gun against tank IV´s is almost a must happen now bc Tank IV´s are cheaper, the basic long barrled version doesnt cost CP and yet they can go 1 vs 1 with equal/better armor and better guns.



The E8 prior to mass production unlock costs just 160 MP less than a Panther D. But the Panther bounces 17 pdrs almost as good as shermans bounce 50 mm pak, even better. The 17 pdr has a 53,1% chance to pen Panther D without skirts. The 50 mm pens easy eight with 38,8065% at max range and with 40% against normal 76 version.



So, where exactly do i make you laugh? I am sorry if you are unable to get these things straight and that you dont get the sense behind it.

This is a little bit exagerated this problem isn't really a "must happen now" the only problem that we have so far is just the sherman 76w/e8 coming earlier than pz4's J/H, and the 75mm US guns (sherman/chaffe) working like shit againts early pz4 armor and stugs 3/4.

The shermans 76w/E8 (if delayed) would only need to be a little bit better than pz4 H/J not a huge difference, but a little bit better.

About the 50 mm max distance pen chance againts E8 i think it should be a little lower to like 30% and i wouldn't really touch the chances againts normal 76w since it will share same armor than 75mm sherman but i would only go as far at leaving them with 38,8065% at max range.

[CGarr]

Hopefully you have noticed that Tank III´s cost currently less than shermans. F2 less than normal 75 mm sherman, H and J can be spammed also quite cheap.

The US cant spam more shermans than axis can spam Tank IV´s. When compare Mass production on US side, then compare pls to axis massproduction as well. The US dont get a longer barreld tank like germans get the F2 for now. So yes, buff of 76 gun against tank IV´s is almost a must happen now bc Tank IV´s are cheaper, the basic long barrled version doesnt cost CP and yet they can go 1 vs 1 with equal/better armor and better guns.



The E8 prior to mass production unlock costs just 160 MP less than a Panther D. But the Panther bounces 17 pdrs almost as good as shermans bounce 50 mm pak, even better. The 17 pdr has a 53,1% chance to pen Panther D without skirts. The 50 mm pens easy eight with 38,8065% at max range and with 40% against normal 76 version.



So, where exactly do i make you laugh? I am sorry if you are unable to get these things straight and that you dont get the sense behind it.

This is a little bit exagerated this problem isn't really a "must happen now" the only problem that we have so far is just the sherman 76w/e8 coming earlier than pz4's J/H, and the 75mm US guns (sherman/chaffe) working like shit againts early pz4 armor and stugs 3/4.

The shermans 76w/E8 (if delayed) would only need to be a little bit better than pz4 H/J not a huge difference, but a little bit better.

+1 on this