Blitzkrieg Doctrine Grenadier MP40 Stats

[MenciusMoldbug]

I've checked this again and it seems Grenadiers are using Volks MP40 stats for their weapons instead of having their own MP40 which should have higher accuracy stats and stuff.

Reason I think they should have their own MP40 with higher accuracy stats is because the Thompson in BK which is regulated to mostly elite infantry has a 0.9 acc at short range while the volks MP40 has 0.75 acc at short range. MP40 also has a slower rate of fire and does less damage along with firing less bullets in a burst. Which means in some cases getting a Grenadier short range firepower in the form of MP40's is actually a downgrade if you mean to use them to take on units carrying thompsons. Better off to stay in ranged combat with the LMG42 and their rifles.

I'm thinking of the Grenadiers MP40 stats could be re-worked (I'll just call it MP40_Elite when being named in Corsix) is to have them have faster reload, better cooldown, and more accuracy.

So it would be like this with Volks vs Grens in MP40 stats:

ACCURACY (Title above stats is the weapon ranges)

Volks : Grens

Distant:
0.06 : 0.1

Long:
0.1 : 0.2

Medium:
0.45 : 0.65

Short:
0.75 : 0.9

I'm thinking cooldown could be like 20% shorter, or the duration modifer from Distant and Long can change from 1.5 to 1 or something like that. Reload can go down from 3.5-2.8 to 3.0-2.25. This should make it more 'even' with the elite unit thompsons as Grenadiers are comparable in price with them (Maybe grenadier mp40s could cost a bit more if the stats are too OP but it's better than being regulated to using Volks MP40s).

[Warhawks97]

I think (and always thought) that grens should be more in between very basic units like volks and rifles and the real elites like storms and rangers and so on. Simply a wehrmacht special thing and so would be the cost. In the very past they cost more than any allied elite inf (for good reasons), now roughly the same but maintained elite stats in every aspect. And now they are not present in every WH doc anymore. So i have mixed feeling about turning them into "full elites". Even when they cost as much as elites, they dont cost CP.

I was always hoping that these Grens would have become exactly such a special niche unit costing 300-350 MP. And their stats accordingly between Volks and Storms.

If you noticed, there are actually three K98 stat files available. One is even called "volksgren" or "vgren". But instead, Vgren got the "normal" K98 while Grens got the "K98_elite" just like the storms and being thus better than Pegrens (even Heavy assault grens until they got their rightly deserved stat buff to elite status). The old devs simply "lifted" the grens into that kind of elite status (which wasnt the case in vcoh) for whatever reason, probably bc they overdid all axis stats just bc they were axis. Since then i hoped for grens to become something in between Vgrens and Storms/heavy assault grens/Rangers. It never happend.

To bring it on point: i would leave these stats and would try to turn grens into a unit between Vgrens and Storms and dropping cost to like 300-350. In case Propaganda doc is in need of better inf (in case only cheap inf with support doesnt work out) such a unit could help out without giving access to elite inf for this doctrine.

[Walderschmidt]

Really like this idea, Warhawks. Will give thoughts later.

Wald

[Walderschmidt]

Bump. Grens should have better MP40 stats than volks.

Wald

[kwok]

Two things just to note:

1. Dropped mp40 values carry over so if the grenadier drops the "elite" mp40 then the unit that picks it up, like an engineer, will have elite mp40 stats also. Is that what you guys want?

2. This indirectly impacts the viability of stormtroopers, which has already been mentioned in the past few feedback rounds that stormtroopers just aren't used as much if at all anymore. A buff to grenadiers will move players further away from stormtroopers. No we are not giving back LMGs to stormtroopers to compensate... that goes against the "units should have roles" philosophy that is the heart of company of heroes.

[Warhawks97]

Making Grens in between Volks and Storms in all aspects?

[kwok]

no, the original post sorry.

i'm indirectly agreeing with you on philosophy, warhawks. we will probably disagree on execution though... but my opinion doesn't matter.

[Walderschmidt]

I’m okay with grens dropping improved MP40s.

I will happily pay that price. Otherwise, I’d rather grens get G43s, like defense doc.

Wald

[MenciusMoldbug]

Two things just to note:

1. Dropped mp40 values carry over so if the grenadier drops the "elite" mp40 then the unit that picks it up, like an engineer, will have elite mp40 stats also. Is that what you guys want?

2. This indirectly impacts the viability of stormtroopers, which has already been mentioned in the past few feedback rounds that stormtroopers just aren't used as much if at all anymore. A buff to grenadiers will move players further away from stormtroopers. No we are not giving back LMGs to stormtroopers to compensate... that goes against the "units should have roles" philosophy that is the heart of company of heroes.

1. I don't think that really matters because I've seen engineers/pioneers with picked up LMG42 and STG44 and everyone just treats it like a whatever thing. 1 MP40 with 25-50% better stats on an engineer squad doesn't change much. Unless they manage to kill like 4 Grenadier squads in a row and get like 4 MP40 drops from them (I've never even managed to get 2 STG44's on a engineer squad yet). Still wouldn't make that much of a difference in terms of game balance if that's what is being referred too.

2. Well if it impacts the viability of the stormtroopers I think the upgrade should not belong to the Grenadiers then because with the current stats you are better off using them from range with their elite kar98k stats and LMG42. Than to hope they fare well against stuff like Rangers/Airborne with thompsons with their MP40 stats. It kinda feels 'wrong' that their weapon stats for an upgrade are so weak when compared to their starting rifles.

[mofetagalactica]

Im also ok with this 1-2 MP40 on engineers or volks V/sturms with better stats wouldn't be that much impact, everyone always avoids grabbing weapons with shittier infantry than your elite/best core ones.

[MEFISTO]

Blitzkrieg doctrine always was a PIV and stugIII and StugIV spam with heavy infantry; heavy Infantry was it's stroger side (stormtroopers full equiped) do not why the LMG42 was remuved from their arsenal, also why the call in was that NERF, first "It was to strong, change to a PIII then PIII is to strong what will be the next? engeneers with MP44 and a jeep? this doctrine weackness always was the late game vs Armor (it is fine since Allies needs to have some doctrines to counter axis doctrines that's balance) also it's good that BK dock get stronger vs camping game (It was another weackness of this doctrine in the late game) I woul like to keep this doctrine as a strong heavy enfantree and medium armors spam with a decent late game.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Sooo, what is bad if blitz doc will no more just be "spam t3/offmap"? I mean, literally, even u said this, people are simply rushing for offmap and sitback.
What i've noticed, and that is the most ironic thing ive seen after years of Bkmod..

First, there was such thing like 37mm Axis AT that used HE. Early game it was critical. All dancing in Allies/WM games were around it. Hopefully, u could flank it, maybe, kill/imo.

They changed it, people started using HE less.
Then devs added AT squad, 360 degree 1 click no brainer for tunnel loving players. Alright..U still can kill win it, just dont rush for it.

What happens next? Blitz doc will get Leig18.

Every game i've encountered it, it was pain. Random. RNG multiplied pain. Basically, it is just an easier way of using 37mm HE.
Can u flank it with infantry? harder. Splash.
Jeep? with 360 unit around impossible.
Get mortar and be lucky? sure, but Leig has howie ability, with the most random and unnoticable animations..

And now this peace of balance godness is buildable. Not anymore required just as reward.
BKdoc is weak? it is even more 1clicky than ever. U guys will like it, whoever complains about changes.


Just to note, so called counter doc, armor, is also getting changes.

And to the subject itself..


Funny thing, what Kwok pointed out about some random basic unit picking MP40 and becoming "too" strong, actually i thought that was the case already.

I've had many games, when if i pick just 1 mp40 with rifle squad, they appear to be more effective than to say with Greese gun. Maybe it feels so, but it happens often.
Though, ehh, it never effects critically, so i guess tuning it up would help, especially if that could be balanced further with additional price.
Also also, officer with mp40 is very strong somehow already. Does it have any super accuracy multipliers?

[kwok]

I woul like to keep this doctrine as a strong heavy enfantree and medium armors spam with a decent late game.

I think we would too Mefisto, that's why we extended the CP for a lot of allied heavy tanks so that medium tanks have more time to control the map. Since then, when I played I do notice a lot more medium tanks and even light vehicles in game more.

I think where we are still trying to figure out and haven't gotten much solution from the community is how to make stormtroopers more viable. I think that discussion can be worth having here because it's similar enough to blitz doc grenadiers.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Well, my problem with Stormtroopers is their starting loadout not matching what they are supposed to be. They are supposed to be 'assault' infantry but they start with bolt rifles and have to stay at ranged combat until they can upgade to MP44's. At least the CQC and infiltration Ranger squads start with Thompsons, shotguns, and other spray weapons. Even Fallshrimjagers come with their FG42s already equipped; imagine them paradropping on enemy positions with bolt rifles. What I'd do is replace the default weapons of the Stormtroopers to MP40's. So it would be 1 STG44 for the leader and 5 MP40's for the rest as default weapons. You can then tune the MP40_Elite stats so it's worse than a STG44 but better than a volks MP40. When I pop a Stormtrooper squad from a building and 'ambush' a few unsuspecting allied units they should murder them if they don't see it coming (like the CQC squads do) and not take forever to kill them with their bolt rifles (usually I hope the squad leader stays alive because his STG44 does 99% of the work in these cases).

So In general:

- Put an MP40_Elite into the game

- Give this to Grenadiers in Blitzkrieg Doctrine as an upgrade

- Make it the default weapon for Stormtroopers instead of their ranged rifle loadout currently (doesn't make sense now that the LMG is gone)

- Tune the stats so its worse than STG44's and Thompsons, but better than Volks MP40 and Grease Guns

Should make Stormtroopers more scary as a squad with 5 MP40's and a STG44 charging at you in the early game (if you rush Stormtroopers and pop them from a building) is more scary than Stormtroopers shooting at you from a distance. I've noticed in some games the PE sabotage squad is 'better' at surprising enemy units with their small squad loadout from buildings simply because they have the close quarter weapons necessary to deal with them fast enough before they realise it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this but Stormtroopers can still upgrade to their STG44's from their MP40's. It is just changing their 'default weapon' to be the MP40 like the Fallshrimajgers default weapon is the FG42.

[mofetagalactica]

Well, my problem with Stormtroopers is their starting loadout not matching what they are supposed to be. They are supposed to be 'assault' infantry but they start with bolt rifles and have to stay at ranged combat until they can upgade to MP44's. At least the CQC and infiltration Ranger squads start with Thompsons, shotguns, and other spray weapons. Even Fallshrimjagers come with their FG42s already equipped; imagine them paradropping on enemy positions with bolt rifles. What I'd do is replace the default weapons of the Stormtroopers to MP40's. So it would be 1 STG44 for the leader and 5 MP40's for the rest as default weapons. You can then tune the MP40_Elite stats so it's worse than a STG44 but better than a volks MP40. When I pop a Stormtrooper squad from a building and 'ambush' a few unsuspecting allied units they should murder them if they don't see it coming (like the CQC squads do) and not take forever to kill them with their bolt rifles (usually I hope the squad leader stays alive because his STG44 does 99% of the work in these cases).

So In general:

- Put an MP40_Elite into the game

- Give this to Grenadiers in Blitzkrieg Doctrine as an upgrade

- Make it the default weapon for Stormtroopers instead of their ranged rifle loadout currently (doesn't make sense now that the LMG is gone)

- Tune the stats so its worse than STG44's and Thompsons, but better than Volks MP40 and Grease Guns

Should make Stormtroopers more scary as a squad with 5 MP40's and a STG44 charging at you in the early game (if you rush Stormtroopers and pop them from a building) is more scary than Stormtroopers shooting at you from a distance. I've noticed in some games the PE sabotage squad is 'better' at surprising enemy units with their small squad loadout from buildings simply because they have the close quarter weapons necessary to deal with them fast enough before they realise it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this but Stormtroopers can still upgrade to their STG44's from their MP40's. It is just changing their 'default weapon' to be the MP40 like the Fallshrimajgers default weapon is the FG42.

Good post, but we have to be aware that stoorms are currently the only troop that can upgrade with mp44's and i don't think the community will acept even less mp44's, when no one knows what will happen with PE. Personally i would preffer more default stg's for them instead 4 mp40's.

[CGarr]

Well, my problem with Stormtroopers is their starting loadout not matching what they are supposed to be. They are supposed to be 'assault' infantry but they start with bolt rifles and have to stay at ranged combat until they can upgade to MP44's. At least the CQC and infiltration Ranger squads start with Thompsons, shotguns, and other spray weapons. Even Fallshrimjagers come with their FG42s already equipped; imagine them paradropping on enemy positions with bolt rifles. What I'd do is replace the default weapons of the Stormtroopers to MP40's. So it would be 1 STG44 for the leader and 5 MP40's for the rest as default weapons. You can then tune the MP40_Elite stats so it's worse than a STG44 but better than a volks MP40. When I pop a Stormtrooper squad from a building and 'ambush' a few unsuspecting allied units they should murder them if they don't see it coming (like the CQC squads do) and not take forever to kill them with their bolt rifles (usually I hope the squad leader stays alive because his STG44 does 99% of the work in these cases).

So In general:

- Put an MP40_Elite into the game

- Give this to Grenadiers in Blitzkrieg Doctrine as an upgrade

- Make it the default weapon for Stormtroopers instead of their ranged rifle loadout currently (doesn't make sense now that the LMG is gone)

- Tune the stats so its worse than STG44's and Thompsons, but better than Volks MP40 and Grease Guns

Should make Stormtroopers more scary as a squad with 5 MP40's and a STG44 charging at you in the early game (if you rush Stormtroopers and pop them from a building) is more scary than Stormtroopers shooting at you from a distance. I've noticed in some games the PE sabotage squad is 'better' at surprising enemy units with their small squad loadout from buildings simply because they have the close quarter weapons necessary to deal with them fast enough before they realise it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this but Stormtroopers can still upgrade to their STG44's from their MP40's. It is just changing their 'default weapon' to be the MP40 like the Fallshrimajgers default weapon is the FG42.

Good post, but we have to be aware that stoorms are currently the only troop that can upgrade with mp44's and i don't think the community will acept even less mp44's, when no one knows what will happen with PE. Personally i would preffer more default stg's for them instead 4 mp40's.

I'd assume no matter what storms will have STG, doesn't really make sense to get rid of it on them. They are actual elite inf that you most likely will not have the MP to spam in the way that you used to be able to spam grens so that won't be an issue, getting rid of both the lmg and STG would be dumb. Grens still have their LMG and storms will probably keep its STG, each has a role that calls for said weapons to be available once their starters are not enough.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Ah right I'm not making sense because i didn't explain it properly.

Basically:

- Stormtrooper is deployed from building/off-map/halftrack they have mp40'S and STG44 for squad leader.

- They get same amount of STG44 upgrades. Once they upgrade to STG44 it replaces the mp40 with the STG44.

- So they start with 1 stg and 5 mp40s and after all their upgrades they will have 5 stg44s and a panzershreck.

They just need more CQC weapons from the start. Maybe even giving them more STG44s on deployment like assault pios have it could work too.

[CGarr]

Ah right I'm not making sense because i didn't explain it properly.

Basically:

- Stormtrooper is deployed from building/off-map/halftrack they have mp40'S AND STG44 for squad leader.

- They get same amount of STG44 upgrades. Once they upgrade to STG44 it replaces the mp40 with the STG44.

- So they start with 1 stg and 5 mp40s and after all their upgrades they will have 5 stg44s and a panzershreck.

They just need more CQC weapons from the start. Maybe even giving them more STG44s on deployment like assault pios have it could work too.

2 STG's and 4 mp40's at deployment would make sense, it'd leave room for either 2 individual shreck upgrades or 2 sets of 2 STG's, letting the player specialize the squad into either anti-inf or anti-tank.

[Walderschmidt]

I could be down with 2 stg 4 mp40s.

Wald

[Viper]

storms with 2 stg, 4 mp40 standard loadout.

and i think the commands points needed for evasive maneuvers is too much.

[mofetagalactica]

Ah right I'm not making sense because i didn't explain it properly.

Basically:

- Stormtrooper is deployed from building/off-map/halftrack they have mp40'S and STG44 for squad leader.

- They get same amount of STG44 upgrades. Once they upgrade to STG44 it replaces the mp40 with the STG44.

- So they start with 1 stg and 5 mp40s and after all their upgrades they will have 5 stg44s and a panzershreck.

They just need more CQC weapons from the start. Maybe even giving them more STG44s on deployment like assault pios have it could work too.

Thats way better explained, then yeah im down with this too , i would still preffer 2 starting stg's and the rest with mp40.

[Warhawks97]

I fully support Menichus idea. I once made a similar approach in my private BK version few years ago. But i never brought it to forum simply bc i expected nobody wanting storms to have Mp 40. Apparently i am wrong. So i am support this idea. 2 STG 44 and 4x MP40 as default weapons.


And as we got to talk about it and looking at PE´s future. I would make similiar approaches with the Stormpios and heavy assault grens.

In my private version i had 4 men default squads with later being upgraded to 5 men. The Stormpios started with 1x or 2x STG and 3x or 2x MP40. No other weapons available. The Heavy assault grens started with at least one STG.

[CGarr]

storms with 2 stg, 4 mp40 standard loadout.

and i think the commands points needed for evasive maneuvers is too much.

This sounds reasonable

[MarKr]

- Make it the default weapon for Stormtroopers instead of their ranged rifle loadout currently (doesn't make sense now that the LMG is gone)

It seems that the whole idea starts with this. Is it really true that their rifles are pointles? People said how Volks with the changed rifles are strong and whatnot and storms have even better stats on their rifles than Volks. The Storms can still be paired with the suppression squad (they have 2 LMGs by default) and make a versatile long range defense or attack support combination.
Giving them the suggested loadouts would mean that their possible combat roles would be restrained from "long range and possible short range" to "only short range".
It would be possible to keep storms squads from their HT with their current loadout and the squad called in from the command panel could get some short range basic loadout so players could get one or the other based on what is more needed in given situation.

[CGarr]

- Make it the default weapon for Stormtroopers instead of their ranged rifle loadout currently (doesn't make sense now that the LMG is gone)

It seems that the whole idea starts with this. Is it really true that their rifles are pointles? People said how Volks with the changed rifles are strong and whatnot and storms have even better stats on their rifles than Volks. The Storms can still be paired with the suppression squad (they have 2 LMGs by default) and make a versatile long range defense or attack support combination.
Giving them the suggested loadouts would mean that their possible combat roles would be restrained from "long range and possible short range" to "only short range".
It would be possible to keep storms squads from their HT with their current loadout and the squad called in from the command panel could get some short range basic loadout so players could get one or the other based on what is more needed in given situation.

If you mean like splitting the unit into 2 different units the same way commandos are (sten and enfield squads being seperate) then that sounds like the best solution, short range version should use the loadout described above while the long range version should have K98's and upgrade to g43's. In that case neither need's MG since G43's are good enough of an upgrade (especially since I'd assume it'd get elite stats version similar to gebirgs) and STG's would be more ideal for the short range one.