5.1.8 [BETA] Replays

[Walderschmidt]

Post them here.

2v2 Kwok (Wehr) & Sparkes (PE) v Me (Ami) & Echo (Ami) - Kwok won as Terror

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1v1 Figree (Wehr) v Me (Ami) - Figree won as Terror

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Remarks: Figree easily won this game, yet it was the first time I felt like I faced off against him and he didn't completely rape me. I suspect that I lost in part due to playing my macro bad, rather than Terror being overwhelming me. I'd say, Terror's already good map control qualities were extenuated with my bad map control macro. Good game, though I thought.

1v1 Kwok (Wehr) v Me (Ami) - Kwok raped me as Terror

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1v1 Kwok (Wehr) v Me (Ami) - Kwok raped me...again as Terror

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1v1 Kwok (Wehr) v Me (Ami) - Shall I point to the spot on the doll where Kwok's Terror touched me?

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1v1 Kwok (Wehr) v Me (Ami) - Kwok as Terror, me as tenderized burger meat

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1v1 Kwok (Wehr) v Me (Ami) - You know the drill, Filed Titled "Rape 6"

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1v1 Kwok (Wehr) & Me (Wehr) v Waffle (Ami) & Figree (Ami)

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Remarks: Normal Beta game - both Kwok and I went Blitz and I think both Waffle and Figree went Infantry. One highlight from my side is I got greedy with my Panther and walked into an ambush of 1x zook squad, 2x infil rangers with zooks, and somehow managed to get my Panther outta dodge at the last second. Excellent hasty ambush by Waffle. From Kwok's side, it sounded like Figree got really, really unlucky with snipers and the 76mm Jumbo.

1v1 Me (Wehr) v Echo (Ami) - I won as Terror

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My first game that I played against Echo where I won as terror. I finally started using my Volksturm correctly, like Kwok did.

Wald

[Walderschmidt]

Really good game!

Figree (Blitz) + Panzer Alcon (Def) v Me (Armor) & Need Ammo (Inf)

Bloody Gulch!

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Walderschmidt

[Warhawks97]

I went quickly over the games, esspecially the one with sparkes and echo just to see how they play and think.

What surprised me really is that people have still no real idea about what the supply yard is for. They only consider it as some sort of "tec requirment" to get certain units. I see many games from AB and inf doc players that dont use it bc they dont build units that require a supply yard. And its kinda understandable to some degree bc no other faction requires high tec buildings when they just need infantry and vehicles. So they dont know why to keep teching unless they want certain units.


Anyway, back on topic and Beta.

First that "jeep issue" with the cal 50 style is really one that usually occures only in HR games when you get it right away while WH needs to get the HQ upgrade to get puma and AT guns are not yet in position. In Standard res games its different bc there is time to prepare for these jeeps that makes them far less dangerous there.
But from what i saw the cal 50 doesnt seem OP at all. Volkssturm in green cover managed to survive cal 50 bursts relatively well. The PE inf could stand there just in the open not taking too much notice of the presence of a cal 50. There was no instance were a cal 50 did actually something super crazy against infantry. At bloody gulch Wald could walk with his grenadiers right up in front of a greyhound, even walking towards it and forcing it to retreat besides a cal 50 on top of the greyhound. Is that how an "OP weapon" looks like nowadays?

Jeeps just have the ability to drive in close on halftracks and inf, release bursts from point blank and retreat with enough HP left. Thats the real issue here.A jeep can just like that pass a group of infantry, chasing down a halftrack and retreat without taking too much damage from small arms. I think when six men armed with Rifles and sometimes machine pistols would open fire on a jeep from close range, the engine would take certainly damage. Jeeps and all these little things simply have to take more damage from small arms and damaged engines have to occure far more often. A jeep shouldnt just pass or even park next to a group of rifle or automatic weapon armed soldiers without taking any significant damage.

Also the "taking light armored vehicles out in a burst" seems to be a veterancy issue. In the other 2 vs 2 at bloody gulch a cal 50 jeep fired 3 bursts or more against a 37 mm HT and took less than 50% HP from it. Its the speed that enables the jeep to close in combined with big veterancy boosts that makes the jeep in particular dangerous. But the cal 50 is doing just fine. No insane "one burst kills from long range" but also not too little damage from closer distances.

Fix these light speedy vehicles, fix vehicle veterancy and all is fine. No need to screw all vehicles by mass-introducing AT rifles again and no need to screw cal 50´s.

Ultimately, as BK (and i think def, too) have access to their 37 mm and 28 mm HT, good counters exist. Just stay at range with them. People get to learn how to use them.


What else.... The Garand and rifles seem to be quite usless. I know wald got a few kills with them but that was mostly regarded to very poor infantry use from sparks who never really used cover. And even then in one instance a gren squad just walked up on combat engis backed by rifles with BAR, killing the combat engis with a nade and retreat without taking any real damage from Rifles. The combat engis with their machine pistols seem to have a higher damage output at range than M1 Garand Rifles.


Comming to kowk: I always enjoy watching him because he is really thinking "outside the box". Not all his moves work out, like the flame HT (well he did to some degree in the second attempt), but they way he is trying to play. I liked his Volkssturm and suddenly they dont seem to be so useless anymore. 4 or 5 squads spammed out outright, some of which gaining decent veterancy levels with 14 kills or more, good officer usage. Esspecially in HR games this tactics works. First simply outproducing your enemie with short build times and two buildings capable recruiting Volkssturm, then going for Puma. A mortar would have rounded it up nicely. And later they work nice as meatshield, exploiting areas to shoot with Sturmtiger at and looking for passage for Tigers. Quite enjoyable.


There is not much to wish besides:

1. These small racing vehicles like jeeps need to take more damage, esspecially close range. They just drive up, release bursts from close range and get away easily. Damaged engines have to occure more frequently under light arms fire.
2. Get the Garand back to what it was so that they are not again pistols cloaked as rifles.
3. Vokssturm squad size upgrades getting cheaper on each HQ upgrade so that they keep worth it towards late game.
4. Change supply yard so that they are not just part in the tec line, but buildable anytime so that player can play longer with inf and vehicles without being forced to go up to almost max tec.
5. Dont change the cal 50. In the games is a lot of evidance that this weapon is not OP as many claim. Just watch the 2 vs 2 at bloody gulch. Three bursts of a cal 50 jeep vs a HT from max range took not even 50% of its HP and Grenadiers just walked up towards a Greyhound with cal 50 and nothing really happend. Pretty much all inf is quite safe against cal 50´s as long as they make use of cover with small exception for Volkssturm perhaps but even those can survive in green cover as can be seen elsewhere in the videos.


And i cant await to see reworked PE. Small squad sizes that can be upgraded seem to work. Hopefully we will also go such a path with PE with small tactical squads. Not meatshileds ofc, but small tactical elite units.

[CGarr]

Haven't been playing as much recently so excuse the shit micro but here's a few.

[CGarr]

Finally got a chance to watch the replays Walder posted and read Hawks' replies. While I agree with some of the points Hawks brought up, there were some points I had differing opinions on.

* These aren't really in the same order as the quotes they're drawing from, sorry in advance.

1." These small racing vehicles like jeeps need to take more damage, esspecially close range. They just drive up, release bursts from close range and get away easily. Damaged engines have to occure more frequently under light arms fire."
I don't agree with Hawks' solution to this because it would essentially cause the same issue that reintroducing the light AT squad to the other docs in it's current state would. Jeeps are already somewhat difficult to use due to their lack of armor and relatively small healthpool, making them weaker would make them even less appealing considering currently their only redeeming qualities are their firepower and low cost. I've suggested before that light AT squads should get mobility crits rather than doing straight damage, but since people don't seem to like that idea I think a decent alternative would be to just up the costs of jeeps a bit (+5 fuel to all current costs or an added muni cost) until the player gets upgraded production in the motorpool (could also tie it to the supply yard being built). This would make jeeps an investment rather than non-decision core unit that's built every game, sometimes in mass. It would also allow for an opportunity to give the unit more utility to make up for this investment cost, which brings me to my next point.

2. I do agree that the 50 cal doesn't need to be nerfed, as both in my experience and in whats shown in the posted replays, the gun isn't really the issue. The problems people (myself included) have cited about the 50 cal post buff are generally more directed at the units that have them, either due to absurd stats (stuart recce), or veteran bonuses and poor economic implementation (the upgraded jeeps are so cost effective there's really no reason not to get at least 1 unless you're deadset on getting their motorpool counterparts, most of which aren't much better outside of having slightly more survivability against small arms). The increased costs would negate the need to nerf 50cals on jeeps, and jeeps are really the only unit they create a problem for, as I don't ever see people complaining about m20's, m8's, HT's, or tanks with 50's being OP (usually it's the opposite, as seen above). Especially after the mobility nerfs, the 50 cal armed US light vehicles are oftentimes enough of a headache to use that it would be better to just skip them in favor of an early m4 (assuming you're capable of holding out until then).

3. Depending on the cost increase, there might even be justification to buff their offensive capabilities a bit more or give them new abilities, free suppressive bursts with a long cooldown for units like jeeps and schwimms in exchange for an initial muni investment (either in building the unit or as an upgrade) would be nice. Either of these would allow them to ascend to the role of fire support rather than being purely a scouting unit.

4. I completely agree with the supply yard changes, as allowing it to be built anytime would open US faction to more playstyles in a similar way to how the second building for wehr being buildable from the start did. The only thing I might suggest is possibly limiting the fuel income upgrades to being built only after the tank depot.

5. I still believe the Vsturm squad size upgrade should be universal if they are going to be relied on as a fighting unit, alongside the changes I suggested in the other topics concerning Vsturms (yes, I understand the value of having a larger capping force but in my experience light vehicles counter this quite well, especially alongside some sort of AT to deal with the inevitable puma). With 2 equally skilled players, I've found the Vsturms to far too weak to justify building over volks, at least in 1v1 scenarios (considering the lack of successful teamwork in a lot matches, this could even apply to team games). Avoiding building them just because they're absurdly weak feels wrong, especially considering how a good chunk of the doctrine tree is dedicated to making them less trash or supporting them. As such, people have been avoiding using terror doc in a lot of my recent matches, including myself. The doc might work in theory if you have a player like Kwok who is extremely good with map control, but the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't and as such will not be able to use that (somewhat controllable from an opponent's perspective) extra capping power, leaving them with a doctrine built around trash units that plays like a worse defensive doc until late game. All of these issues would be compounded if the riflemen get their much needed re-buff, which brings me to my last point.

6. As Hawks has mentioned here and others have mentioned in the garands and Kar98 topics, riflemen seriously need to be rebuffed if the Kar changes are going to stay, as I think another factor driving the recent jeep spam meta is the shitty state riflemen are in currently. Unless the enemy player goes terror doc, it is pretty much guaranteed that riflemen will be facing off against grens in the early game due to them being available from the start. As such, they are pitted against a unit that kills much faster at any range and which is significantly more durable. I personally would at least have elite inf available without CP (tech cost is fine but CP cost is obnoxious when playing against a defensive player, and currently 4 of the 6 axis docs heavily lend themselves to playing passively and just racking up kills while surviving and teching) but if that's not enough or people don't want that, garands should at least be buffed back to where they were, as currently grens might lose one or 2 models while wiping a riflemen squad in the same level of cover despite coming out around the same time. The current imbalance forces US to rely mainly on supports rather than their mainline inf until they get 2 CP (armor is a bit of a special case, having comparably effective elite inf available at a much earlier state than any other allied doctrine), and that's assuming they rush getting said elite inf in the doctrine tree. If support units like the jeep are going to be nerfed, mainline inf options should be improved in accordance as they are already underperforming and the nerf would only compound their inability to survive against grens.

[Warhawks97]

1." These small racing vehicles like jeeps need to take more damage, esspecially close range. They just drive up, release bursts from close range and get away easily. Damaged engines have to occure more frequently under light arms fire."
I don't agree with Hawks' solution to this because it would essentially cause the same issue that reintroducing the light AT squad to the other docs in it's current state would. Jeeps are already somewhat difficult to use due to their lack of armor and relatively small healthpool, making them weaker would make them even less appealing considering currently their only redeeming qualities are their firepower and low cost. I've suggested before that light AT squads should get mobility crits rather than doing straight damage, but since people don't seem to like that idea I think a decent alternative would be to just up the costs of jeeps a bit (+5 fuel to all current costs or an added muni cost) until the player gets upgraded production in the motorpool (could also tie it to the supply yard being built). This would make jeeps an investment rather than non-decision core unit that's built every game, sometimes in mass. It would also allow for an opportunity to give the unit more utility to make up for this investment cost, which brings me to my next point.

I agree, i also want AT rifles to be different. I already told kowk that there should be a debate started from devs side and perhaps a poll of what AT rifles should actually be. I would also like to see them more as a support and deterence unit that emphasises on mobility over guns but less straight damage and more continues damage and more critical damage against vehicles.
The reason i said that vehicles like jeep should take more damage from small arms is that there seems to be no interest whatsoever in changing AT rifles to be less highly mobile canons. And reintroducing such highly mobile hard hitting units once again would not just hurt jeeps, but all others as well. Basically jeeps would suffer less than units like stuart tanks as the only thing that keeps vehicles alive is the speed they have to get away from suddenly occuring AT rifles. So we want to hit jeeps, but we would hit all other vehicles a lot more as we would hurt them.

Nontheless, it shouldnt be as easy for jeeps/scwhimms to close in on units (with automatic weapons sometimes) for a burst at maximum efficiency, and then to retreat safely. I didnt say they should die outright, but just a bit more vulnerable. They main role should be reconassaince throughout the game, and less early game main combat units while disappearing later. So increasing their cost for the early game balance would make them disappear completely in the late game. But here its important to have some sort light, cheap counter-recon/sniper unit. Lots of people prefer for example the bike over schwimm. It doesnt provide a firebase as the schwimm does in early game, but in return you get an expandable unit for the late game that can exploit enemie lines and counter recons. US would lack such a unit in late game when jeep costs will go up just in order to balance the first two minutes of the game.

2. I do agree that the 50 cal doesn't need to be nerfed, as both in my experience and in whats shown in the posted replays, the gun isn't really the issue. The problems people (myself included) have cited about the 50 cal post buff are generally more directed at the units that have them, either due to absurd stats (stuart recce), or veteran bonuses and poor economic implementation (the upgraded jeeps are so cost effective there's really no reason not to get at least 1 unless you're deadset on getting their motorpool counterparts, most of which aren't much better outside of having slightly more survivability against small arms). The increased costs would negate the need to nerf 50cals on jeeps, and jeeps are really the only unit they create a problem for, as I don't ever see people complaining about m20's, m8's, HT's, or tanks with 50's being OP (usually it's the opposite, as seen above). Especially after the mobility nerfs, the 50 cal armed US light vehicles are oftentimes enough of a headache to use that it would be better to just skip them in favor of an early m4 (assuming you're capable of holding out until then).

3. Depending on the cost increase, there might even be justification to buff their offensive capabilities a bit more or give them new abilities, free suppressive bursts with a long cooldown for units like jeeps and schwimms in exchange for an initial muni investment (either in building the unit or as an upgrade) would be nice. Either of these would allow them to ascend to the role of fire support rather than being purely a scouting unit.

What about giving the cal 50´s as an upgrade for jeeps? So you start of with a cal 30 and pay ammo first that upgrades them into cal 50 armed units. The AB armored jeep would probably have to stay the way it is, but that would be a one doc thing.

The cal 50 upgrade would require the weapon support center to be build.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Hi,

I should say, that all this conclusions on how Jeeps/Schwimms and all related early on vehicles perform are highly debatable.
Even more to say, i've seen proportionally exact number of games, where early "close" push with anything above could be critical or end too fast and be a waste of around 200mp.
For both sides.

Considering health and damage capabilities, i'm not sure either. Current situation, it could be fancy RNG hits from rifles to scwhimm wise-versa.
Same based to early game and ATsquad now, after time when people got in use with it, they may miss and may oneshot.

Cant feel your issue here, to me, it is still more a balance of players and their sense of timing. Where and what to place, than numbers now.
So from my perspective, it all rather hard to say if units are harsh/low in damage health way, or anything else.

They lack usability after some time in the game for sure. Not much sense to keep it alive, if i may to say that. It will only eat upkeep.

Sort of exaggerated example is:

Scout car of PE early on, and bike from WM.

Bike is cheap and come a few seconds earlier than opposite side can expect/get in cover early, so it can be crucial.
Scout car is expected to come, though, if you get AT of any kind and instead come sturm pio. Hmm..

I agree to upgrade thing though, for the most part it could give this sort of vehicles more variety and so on.

[Walderschmidt]

I would definitely like it if the Schwimms/Bikes/Jeeps got some sort of suppression ability late game to make them useful later on.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

I would definitely like it if the Schwimms/Bikes/Jeeps got some sort of suppression ability late game to make them useful later on.

Wald

I would be very crarefull with that. Mobile suppressive fire vehicles . Idk. I would focus more on their reconassaince role rather than increasing their combat performance.

Cost drops in the late game could be a thing for the late game to have some sort of expendable reconassaince units.

[kwok]

I have my own replays to upload. I finally got around to playing.

Pay no attention to my raging... I had a really long day and the games were played late at night. The smallest bad luck set me off. Sorry Figree, thanks for playing with me!

[Warhawks97]

One more 2 vs 2 at La fiere. Terror and BK vs Inf and Armor.

[kwok]

Another one.

[Warhawks97]

Watched your game kowk. You are a pussy

Ok, joke aside and lets get serious. I often wonder why you dont keep pushing when you could, esspecially mid game. And when you attack then only with like 50% will behind it. But you are also not really a camper (you became a camper when you got your first tanks and esspecially when tiger came). Your defense is always very light. You could have made great use of stugs and an earlier aggressive panzer IV Push.

You said terror is and always was a camper doc. Well in the past it was to some extend. Camp, CP farm with rocket arty and get heavy tanks.
Right now i would say there is also a strong moment in the mid game. The new Panzer IV F2´s can boost your mid game offense a lot currently and you can back it easily either by rocket arty or stugs. Most have not yet realized the new potential of the F2. In the replays ive seen here there was always a window at which time F2´s could have had a huge impact forcing opponents into the defense and to rush for 76 guns and thus spending CP on them.



There is one thing about terror doc that concerns me though. And thats the Ostwind. Its a two edged sword. Its great in supporting your cheap infantry and adds more firepower to them. And it helps protecting your costly tanks. But that thing can turn terror doc into a hardcore camp doc. Stugs, Ostwind, Rocket arty and thats for little CP spendings. And i am afraid that tigers will more often than not end up into becoming a defensive fortress. Their range and Tigerpobia makes them an ideal tool for the defense against tanks and vehicles while Ostwind can stay in its proximity to kill infantry and planes. It can totally lock down airborne doctrine this way. I would Put the Ostwind into the defensive doctrine to be honest. But perhaps it wont make much of a different at the end. But at least Terror docs only weakness later wouldnt be enemie artillery spam.

Its difficult to form an opinion on that.

[kwok]

Why didn’t I push? Simple. Because I’m a pussy. And figree is good, I wasn’t good at counting units that game so I wasn’t sure where his stuff was. Do you watch the game with fog of war on? You have to assume the unknown and not with omniscience.

[mofetagalactica]

Since he got a pussy, he became the pussy hahahahhaa