tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

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kwok
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tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby kwok » 20 Sep 2019, 20:11

please discuss here

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Walderschmidt » 21 Sep 2019, 20:15

Gonna paraphrase Warhawks/Tiger/add my own thoughts.

1) Once a unit iniates an ambush, one must manually camo it again. Preferably moving it first.
2) No more than 9 seconds to camo
3)Longer detection ranges for spotters/jeeps/motorcycles

Any other thoughts?

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby CGarr » 22 Sep 2019, 07:43

All 3 of those sound good

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Sep 2019, 11:32

Yes. So what i thoughts were:

1. To hide a unit in a cover by ambush ability would take roughly 10 seconds.
2. After the first shot fired (AT guns remain with two) the tank isnt ambushed anymore and the ambush ability switched off but provides "follow on modifiers" to the unit for a certain duration or untill the second shot is fired or untill the unit starts moving such as faster reload and increased accuracy as well as reduced received accuracy.
3. The ambush ability is set on a cooldown and to ambush the unit again you would need to do it manually (perhaps you need to move the tank before like wald said) and the cylce from step one repeats.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Sep 2019, 07:44

i don't think the way how ambush system currently works in the game needs to be changed at all... just the re-hide time of Axis tank hunters need to be 9 or 10 seconds max, and maybe the detection range of those tank hunters could be slightly increased, so regular units (not talking about spotters or jeeps) could be able to spot hidden tanks a bit easier, without having to get incredibly too close.

And i'm glad you created a different topic for that matter, because i didn't want that discussion to get over the rest of the points.. they are as important as this one.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby MarKr » 23 Sep 2019, 10:01

A thing that Hawks mentioned sort of stuck in my head - if you have a camoed TD, it fires and so reveals its position. Why would you even want to keep it in the same place? If the unit fired, it is most likely that the opponent KNOWS where it is (there is a small chance that your opponent wasn't watching that part of the map so they don't know the position, but in general it is more likely that they know than that they don't know) if the opponent knows that there is a sitting TD in that position, it is just a free target practice, no? The opponent can shoot arty there and (possibly) destroy the unit, can send infantry and just use the "shoot ground" ability to reveal the unit, can use mortars with "shoot ground" to do the same from a safe distance without risking infantry...
In any case, once the unit's location is known it is as if the camo wasn't there, so why is there such a pressure on lowering the "re-camo" time? Can you give me an example of where it is useful, except for the "hide in the middle of a fight to get the camo bonuses again" (which is more of an abuse than feature) or what your general tactics with TDs is that the current re-camo time makes it a problem?
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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Sep 2019, 11:22

MarKr wrote:In any case, once the unit's location is known it is as if the camo wasn't there

it's surely not the same as if the camo wasn't there.. without camo, it's pretty much becoming a "static position" ability... And the difference is everything can shoot back at you in static mode, not just arty.

Camo mode is different, you know... TDs are often covered with trees (at least Axis ones) so they are hard to see, when you are ambushed.. you can guess or figure out the direction from where the enemy might be shooting at you, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can see exactly where the enemy is hiding. You can blindly shoot back at the direction with indirect fire weapons, but you can't really see clearly the position of the enemy unless u have a scout. That's demonstrated in the game by allowing camo units to re-hide after firing from an ambush position.. unless you have a spotter, which isn't that hard to get.

And wasn't the problem at first that TDs can fire several times before getting revealed? Now you already made it so that they reveal on the first shot. So what now?

it looks like that the problem here for some people is that TDs are able to hide in the first place! Sorry, but isn't that what they are designed for?

They will not hide in the middle of the combat if players have some brain to use spotters.. that's how CoH fog of war system works, and any such changes to ambush system would only hurt the game, as long as the fog of war system remains the same.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby MarKr » 23 Sep 2019, 11:51

Tiger1996 wrote:when you are ambushed.. you can guess or figure out the direction from where the enemy might be shooting at you, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can see exactly where the enemy is hiding. You can blindly shoot back at the direction with indirect fire weapons, but you can't really see clearly the position of the enemy unless u have a scout. That's demonstrated in the game by allowing camo units to re-hide after firing from an ambush position.. unless you have a spotter, which isn't that hard to get.
So your point is purey "realism"? I can just as well say that "in real life" the cannons gave up loads of smoke which was visible from quite a distance and so the position would be compromised, and in real life the TD wouldn't hold position until the crew sees a "spotter" pointing his finger at them.

Anyway, this is a game, when the unit shoots the unit becomes visible and you cannot really make players "pretend" they haven't notice the TD when it revealed itself -> that means they KNOW where the unit is -> that means they can use the methods mentioned above to reveal the unit even without spotters.

So back to my question:
MarKr wrote:Can you give me an example of where it is useful, except for the "hide in the middle of a fight to get the camo bonuses again" (which is more of an abuse than feature) or what your general tactics with TDs is that the current re-camo time makes it a problem?
I mean, a gameplay reason.
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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Sep 2019, 12:07

MarKr wrote:A thing that Hawks mentioned sort of stuck in my head - if you have a camoed TD, it fires and so reveals its position. Why would you even want to keep it in the same place? If the unit fired, it is most likely that the opponent KNOWS where it is (there is a small chance that your opponent wasn't watching that part of the map so they don't know the position, but in general it is more likely that they know than that they don't know) if the opponent knows that there is a sitting TD in that position, it is just a free target practice, no? The opponent can shoot arty there and (possibly) destroy the unit, can send infantry and just use the "shoot ground" ability to reveal the unit, can use mortars with "shoot ground" to do the same from a safe distance without risking infantry...
In any case, once the unit's location is known it is as if the camo wasn't there, so why is there such a pressure on lowering the "re-camo" time? Can you give me an example of where it is useful, except for the "hide in the middle of a fight to get the camo bonuses again" (which is more of an abuse than feature) or what your general tactics with TDs is that the current re-camo time makes it a problem?



The only advantage is that you can go camo mid-combat and thus winning a fight against all odds. And that sucks. Like you send three tanks in, the first gets hit and blown up by an ambushed unit, the two others tank commanders located the ambush and started to attack and shooting. And suddenly, 9 seconds later their short term-memory gets disabled like some braindead fools... Thats the only advantage: Braindead ambush warfare where you dont need to do anything bc your tanks keep more or less in an permanent camo. As a result, heavy and long lasting artillery barrages are required to finally push the camoed unit out of its location.


The best thing would even be, that once a unit has revealed its position, it cant re-hide at the very same location as long as any enemie unit has a sight on it. So it either has to move to another location and create an new ambush or a minimum duration is required where the opponent has absolutely no vision at it (Fog of war). But that going re-camo in the middle of an combat is bullshit. A tank that fires from an ambush at another tank and gets spotted by those will keep spotted for as long as there are enemie tanks/units arround. You cant re-disappear by magic as long as someone is looking at you.




Tiger1996 wrote:Camo mode is different, you know... TDs are often covered with trees (at least Axis ones) so they are hard to see, when you are ambushed.. you can guess or figure out the direction from where the enemy might be shooting at you, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can see exactly where the enemy is hiding. You can blindly shoot back at the direction with indirect fire weapons, but you can't really see clearly the position of the enemy unless u have a scout. That's demonstrated in the game by allowing camo units to re-hide after firing from an ambush position.. unless you have a spotter, which isn't that hard to get.


If thats the case, we can do two things:

1. The tanks can fire twice from ambush as it was before, however certain units become extremely powerfull this way like Jagdpanther, Elephant and so on as they can take out two tanks without getting ever revealed.
2. Thats why i suggested "follow on modifiers" so that for a certain duration or untill the second shot is fired or untill the unit starts moving, the enemies will have harder times to hit it in order to reflect that "guess where the enemie is and where the fire came from" scenario.


But once you you seen and located, why you should go you invisible again?




it looks like that the problem here for some people is that TDs are able to hide in the first place! Sorry, but isn't that what they are designed for?


Bullshit, camo is essential for the game. But going re-camo mid combat over and over again is just no-brainer comp-stomp defense gameplay.

They will not hide in the middle of the combat if players have some brain to use spotters.. that's how CoH fog of war system works, and any such changes to ambush system would only hurt the game, as long as the fog of war system remains the same.



Reminder: Spotter showdwon!
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 23 Sep 2019, 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Sep 2019, 12:10

I used realism as a counter-argument since that the whole subject is based on realism allegations by those who created the topic in the first place.. they are the ones who used the realism argument.. as they claim that from a realistic point of view; enemy would always know where you are hiding after you fire at them from an ambush position.. so, i replied that this isn't necessarily true because in reality you could figure out the direction of the ambush, but that doesn't mean you will know where the enemy is exsctly hiding unless you have friendly scout unit nearby to inform you about the exact ambush position.

And you say that a load of smoke would usually reveal your ambush position in reality.. true, that's why the hidden unit in the game is revealed for a short time after firing from an ambush position, but of course not permanently.. because they are camouflaged, you only saw the smoke caused by the gun.. as you had a chance to guess where they are shooting from only for a short time, but you didn't really see the enemy itself.. unless you have a scout unit nearby, which is demonstrated in the game as "spotters" who reveal the enemy's exact location.

So, actually... i don't have to provide any gameplay reason to support my argument, since i believe there is no issue in how everything works currently... The ones who created this whole shit-storm about camo units, are the ones who need to provide gameplay reasons now. From my gameplay perspective however, camo units were never an issue.. they have been working just fine since ages. So, there is nothing to prove from my side. And using spotters has always been the counter... You can't go attack ambushed units expecting to see everything without vision or any sort of information intelligence.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Sep 2019, 12:25

Tiger1996 wrote:I used realism as a counter-argument since that the whole subject is based on realism allegations by those who created the topic in the first place.. they are the ones who used the realism argument.. as they claim that from a realistic point of view; enemy would always know where you are hiding after you fire at them from an ambush position.. so, i replied that this isn't necessarily true because in reality you could figure out the direction of the ambush, but that doesn't mean you will know where the enemy is exsctly hiding unless you have friendly scout unit nearby to inform you about the exact ambush position.




Warhawks97 wrote:1. The tanks can fire twice from ambush as it was before, however certain units become extremely powerfull this way like Jagdpanther, Elephant and so on as they can take out two tanks without getting ever revealed.
2. Thats why i suggested "follow on modifiers" so that for a certain duration or untill the second shot is fired or untill the unit starts moving, the enemies will have harder times to hit it in order to reflect that "guess where the enemie is and where the fire came from" scenario.




And you say that a load of smoke would usually reveal your ambush position in reality.. true, that's why the hidden unit in the game is revealed for a short time after firing from an ambush position, but of course not permanently.. because they are camouflaged, you only saw the smoke caused by the gun.. as you had a chance to guess where they are shooting from only for a short time, but you didn't really see the enemy itself.. unless you have a scout unit nearby, which is demonstrated in the game as "spotters" who reveal the enemy's exact location.


Gosh, i am so close that my barrel touches the enenie td already. Where did he go? He disappeared in front of my barrel oO.


So, actually... i don't have to provide any gameplay reason to support my argument, since i believe there is no issue in how everything works currently... The ones who created this whole shit-storm about camo units, are the ones who need to provide gameplay reasons now. From my gameplay perspective however, camo units were never an issue.. they have been working just fine since ages. So, there is nothing to prove from my side. And using spotters has always been the counter... You can't go attack ambushed units expecting to see everything without vision or any sort of information intelligence.



Yes, they worked very fine in a way that lots of games ended in heavy arty parties and inf-blobbs trying to drive the TD out of its position and stupid spotter showdowns.


I mean idk if its possible, but there are tons of better solutions.

What if the ammount of ambush shots depends on how close the enemie is? Like when he is closer than 40 range, only one ambush shot can be made. If he is closer than 30 or 25, ambush gets automatically revealed (tanks at least). Or re-camo isnt possible when enemies are closer than 45 range. Like if you fire early, you can fire more ambush shots or at least re-hide faster, when he gets closer, re-hide takes longer, even closer means only one shot and no re-camo and even closer than that means your ambush gets automatically revealed. Also reveal-radius of hidden units depends on units vetercany level and tank commander. Exprienced crews can detect ambushes earlier and faster. Kind of that stuff.


As you said, you can only guess the direction where the fire came from but you can return fire at guesses location which would be best simulated as that the unit that layed the ambush is going to be harder to hit for a certain duration. But several camo shots or insta re-camo would mean that the enemie doesnt react to the ambush at all or even worse, stops reacting to it. They would maintain fireing at the location untill the enemie stops firing or untill they see the TD exploding, but they wouldnt stop shooting bc they would assume that the TD is gone or destroyed.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Viper » 23 Sep 2019, 12:40

Gosh, i am so close that my barrel touches the enenie td already. Where did he go? He disappeared in front of my barrel oO.

lets not forget 60 range in the game = 1 km in reality.
so if you are like 40 range away.....you are still not too close. but more detection range can fix this anyway.

and spotter showdowns are spotter related problems. not td problems. i always thought the way how spotters work could be improved.

camo units cant be more useless. you can already flank them in circles. specifically slow axis tank hunters.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby kwok » 23 Sep 2019, 16:18

Firstly, do we all know how re-hide camo works? There are two timers:

1. camo time - the amount of time it takes for a unit to go into camo when all conditions (like not moving and in cover for x time) are true
2. rehide time - the amount of time it takes for a unit to restart the camo time after the unit has been revealed. the effective re-camo time is the rehide time plus the camo time. note that the rehide time restarts itself whenever conditions (like not firing a shot for x time) are true.

The scenario that warhawks was talking about that was the issue is that the total camo time PLUS the rehide time was less than a tank's weapon cooldown time, so you get scenarios where a unit would fire, start reloading, go into camo before another shot, and then be able to fire again. This, combined with the fact that the units have multiple shots in camo, means that a unit can effectively go invisible for 3/4 shots in a fight, constantly flipping between visible/invisible. depending on the enemies, 4 shots can be fired by a camo'd unit without receiving a single shot because of new added aim times on some weapons. I can say based on feedback i've gotten outside of the forum, this isn't just something warhawks complains about but others as well.



havne't talked to the other devs specifically about this, but we've been reading a lot of the potential solutions. one idea i had was to just reduce the rehide time and potentially increase the camo time (i dont know or remember the times as they are right now and i'm away from my personal computer to check, so i don't know why the times might be "too long" right now) so that the total effective rehide time and cooldown time is at least longer than a reload+aim time for the unit so it doesn't rehide mid-combat.

another idea is to increase the detection of basic units to be no larger than handheld AT weapons, this way units like schreck and bazooka teams can go out and hunt tanks like they are supposed to without the tank going into hiding while the bazooka is aiming, causing an aimtime reset.

in terms of possible other solutions raised, here's what i think is not possible so an alternate would need to be provided:


What if the ammount of ambush shots depends on how close the enemie is? Like when he is closer than 40 range, only one ambush shot can be made. If he is closer than 30 or 25, ambush gets automatically revealed (tanks at least).

not possible without scar and that would add a lot of instability (more chance of crashes and desync) in the game.

Once a unit iniates an ambush, one must manually camo it again. Preferably moving it first.

Required manual ambush is possible, but requiring to move before retriggering is not. I don't know if you really want this as a solution though... from a micro perspective if needing to reinforce after ugprading a volkssturm is too much micro and this is OUT of combat where micro intensity is low then why would you want additional micro for IN combat situations? Totally possible solution... but seems to contradict other complaints you all have posted on here.

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Re: tank hunter (and other unit) re-camo time

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Sep 2019, 18:01

Alright.


1. So what about making TD´s being easier to detect than lets say AT squads and guns. Obviously tanks are much harder to hide and easier to spot than a soldier lying in a dirt hole. So certain scenarios like ambush is completed when there are units already extremely close wouldnt be possible.

2. Re-hide times not possible during combat as long as the unit keeps shooting (camo time longer than reload of guns).

3. Special AT squads can detect vehicles easier bc they are specially trained to spot tanks with "eyes and ears". So unprotected TD´s can get driven out of their ambush easier when rushing them with purpose AT squads.


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