5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

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kwok
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5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by kwok »

Airborne Doctrine:
Based on surveys an replays, we determined that the Airborne doctrine is already a well-rounded doctrine structurally so minimal changes were made. Instead, tweaks to make things that were never used into something more viable. OR to make things that had too much impact on the flow of the game less game changing in order to reward long term strategies and skill over sudden power spikes.

USA:
- Satchel Charge Throw ability of AB Engineers replaced by Resource Scavenge
- 101st Airborne can now buy 2nd Recoilless Rifle for 65 ammo
- In Airborne Company Air raid replaced by AT rocket air strike for 200 ammo
- Lowered the strength of bombing runs (mainly effective against static defenses and infantry, lowered effectivity against tanks), cost reduced to 140 ammo
- Fuel crate from the Supply Drop ability swapped for another Ammo crate
- Cost of the Supply Drop ability dropped to 200MP (from 300MP)

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Black Panther
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by Black Panther »

I'm dissapointed by not touching the airborne.
It is still same meta with rushing the paratroopers path.
There could be some price adjucments to support team drop, like for example

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mofetagalactica
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by mofetagalactica »

Black Panther wrote:I'm dissapointed by not touching the airborne.
It is still same meta with rushing the paratroopers path.
There could be some price adjucments to support team drop, like for example


I like the changes to ammo drops and the replacement for the air raid (expect the same for luft)

But im kinda dissapointed about not touching the support team drops with insane reinforce cost (even the 2 man recon squad reinforce has insane cost), and also please give a look to making the hellcat non-limited to just one like it was on the past (since we're going for well-rounded docs) or even maybe adding limited jacksons as reward for non-limited hellcats?

But i do agree that the airbone doc dosn't need to be fully reworked, but still missed a few changes that could have been made.

kwok
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by kwok »

We go for structural changes for reworks. Balancing changes take time. What you described sound more like balance changes. It's hard to balance a game with constantly moving structures. We try our best to balance along the way but we really can't reach balance if we keep making massive overhauls to certain doctrines. You'll have to just be patient. Keep bringing them up and we can potentially update them along the way but just to set expectations, true balance isn't something as a priority in our mind as we keep doing reworks.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by Warhawks97 »

The whole support branch required a rework. The doc is good in what it can, but there is "too much unlock for too little." Unlocking HMG and Mortar squad seperatly and all that. There should be one spotter team as unlock with lowered reinforce cost.
AB HMG and Mortar squad should be available once the base has the required tec or once the supply drop had been unlocked.
As AT gun drop there should be the 57 mm AT gun available (or both). Its cheaper and offers much greater mobility behind enemie lines.
There could also be a glider drop available but thats just an idea. They got AB HQ.

But that brings me to the AB HQ. What about making it an unlock? In return it wouldnt cost 400 MP each time you upgrade a house. Also the AB HQ Squad wouldnt be an unlock and instead would be called by the AB HQ just like the sniper or AB engis.
Also the HQ squad should focus more on functionality. The Sniper in the squad just boosts its cost too much. Without him the squad could be as cheap as lets say 400 MP (but requires an AB HQ ofc) and thus less painfull to lose and could be used a lot more often to boost the troops which should be its main goal.

And since this doc doesnt really have strong tanks and no powerfull defense or artilley (both, in terms of inf unit types and equipement like guns), it should have an outstanding and air power compared to other air docs. That includes strafes vs inf and vehicles (That AP unlock should be default), bombs against defensive strong points and rockets vs armor and air raids for an all out war or offensive.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by mofetagalactica »

Warhawks97 wrote:The whole support branch required a rework. The doc is good in what it can, but there is "too much unlock for too little." Unlocking HMG and Mortar squad seperatly and all that. There should be one spotter team as unlock with lowered reinforce cost.
AB HMG and Mortar squad should be available once the base has the required tec or once the supply drop had been unlocked.
As AT gun drop there should be the 57 mm AT gun available (or both). Its cheaper and offers much greater mobility behind enemie lines.
There could also be a glider drop available but thats just an idea. They got AB HQ.

But that brings me to the AB HQ. What about making it an unlock? In return it wouldnt cost 400 MP each time you upgrade a house. Also the AB HQ Squad wouldnt be an unlock and instead would be called by the AB HQ just like the sniper or AB engis.
Also the HQ squad should focus more on functionality. The Sniper in the squad just boosts its cost too much. Without him the squad could be as cheap as lets say 400 MP (but requires an AB HQ ofc) and thus less painfull to lose and could be used a lot more often to boost the troops which should be its main goal.

And since this doc doesnt really have strong tanks and no powerfull defense or artilley (both, in terms of inf unit types and equipement like guns), it should have an outstanding and air power compared to other air docs. That includes strafes vs inf and vehicles (That AP unlock should be default), bombs against defensive strong points and rockets vs armor and air raids for an all out war or offensive.


Agree agree in everything except the air raids those are gone and they have to remain that way, unifying a few points on the support branch can make space for adding a big smoke-call in or plane smoke run.

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by MenciusMoldbug »

Please consider re-working airborne again. Right now there doesn't seem to be enough good stuff in it to warrant going for it over infantry or armor doctrine. My own idea was to make airborne a 'flexible defense/offense' doctrine where you can paradrop support units in to setup hard points on the map almost immediately. For that I made the doctrine like this:

Image

Suggestion - Reasons:

Unlimited Hellcats - It's way too iconic for airborne historically. They had M18's be the first tanks that reach them at bastogne and they did quite some work:

The attack of 1st Battalion and the M18 Hellcat tank destroyers of the 705th TD Battalion together destroyed at least 30 German tanks and inflicted 500-1,000 casualties on the attacking forces in what amounted to a spoiling attack.[citation needed] The 3rd Battalion was ordered forward from a reserve position north of Bastogne to ease the pressure on 1st Battalion by occupying a supporting position in Foy to the south.


Mortar support ability into general all around support - Make this ability into something that lets airborne build sandbags/wire/defenses, lay mines, let airborne engineers lay heavy mines, and give airborne the ability to call in mortar smoke drop or mortar barrage in their general vicinity.

MG and Mortar airdrops together - Because I want to make space for the M18 unlock and having these two unit separate on their own command unlocks is too little compared to the awesome unlocks of other doctrines.

57mm AT gun drop - Let airborne drop a 57mm AT gun or a 76mm AT gun when they unlock the paradrop AT gun ability. the 75mm Pack howitzer should be unlocked for paradrop here too.

Maybe also let the airborne command squad call in his own airstrikes depending on what air abilities the airborne has unlocked; which would be on his own cooldown but with like a 5 second delay before the air attack happens. Would be pretty cool.

Also please fix the reinforce costs as I and others have mentioned before for the airborne support weapons, they are way, way too high. Thanks again for all your work.

kwok
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by kwok »

I'm not a big fan of allowing airborne to be able to build defenses, it is the sole purpose of engineers. No other direct combat unit has that ability except for gebirgs (to an extent). I fear that it would make 101 spam too strong with their ability to drop in and dig in so easily. I'd rather see the paradropped engineers used for that purpose.

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by MarKr »

Well, Riflemen can do that after unlock but I agree that it would make the AB Engineers even more obsolete. Maybe we could figure out some way to make the engineers easier available. At the moment you need to get a 101st squad, make them build the AB HQ and then call in the engineers from there. Maybe they could be available as a drop from the Recon or the HQ squad? Or with some unlock possible to drop anywhere from base HQ? Just throwing ideas around...
Image

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by Warhawks97 »

I agree with lots of figrees stuff and markrs.

I also would change the unlock design. Based on menicus proposal, i would make the entire upper right corner (the last three in the first and second line) purely for the AB units drop. At the very center would be the 101st. From there you can flame grenades, 82nd and the HQ squad. And from the hq squad you can unlock mortar barrage and and veterancy training.

M10 and M18 get merged and limit on M18 removed.

On the bottom right side would the Air support. Starting with the recon plane you can then decide to unlock the MG strafe or the bombs after which come the rocket strafe.
The MG strafe starts with AP bullets right away. I never heared of airplanes that loaded soft anti personal ammo.

Left unlcok spaces can be used for some defensive stuff that can be build by airdropped engineers that can get called in the recon squad. And they shouldnt cost over 300 MP.

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Viper
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by Viper »

airborne already kicks luftwaffe ass with snipers, shermans, flame grenades and 101 spam.........luftwaffe only become more suck.

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CGarr
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Re: 5.1.8 Beta: Airborne Updates

Post by CGarr »

Viper wrote:airborne already kicks luftwaffe ass with snipers, shermans, flame grenades and 101 spam.........luftwaffe only become more suck.


I don't see how more accessible airborne engineers and defenses would make luft worse, they can walk through MG fire without much issue. Lufts only issue right now is how stupidly huge of an investment the inf are, as its really easy to bleed them and wipes end games. There's multiple recent posts about that doctrine on the forum already, if you have something to add go there but complaining about it isn't going to help much

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