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5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 08 Sep 2019, 18:46
by kwok
Topic to talk about MG adjustments.

We would like to make upgrading LMG more of a strategic decision rather than flat damage buff to the squad. Therefore, any squad that upgrades an LMG will gain the suppression ability (note that the ability requires UPGRADE the squad, the ability won't work if your squad picks up a dropped LMG). However, we felt that this change would make HMG teams a lot less useful because any squad with LMG would be able to achieve pretty much the same as the MHG teams but squads with LMG have higher mobility (because LMGs have no "set up" and "tear down" times). For this reason the MHG teams now cost no ammo to build and their suppressive ability costs only 15 ammo and for the HMG teams the ability is "activated" which means that the squad can suppress more squads per one activation (if you manually switch targets). On the other hand, the suppressive ability of squads with LMG upgrade costs 40 ammo to activate and the ability is "targeted" which means that you need to activate it and then select enemy squad to suppress (if you then tell the squad to target something else, the ability will be canceled) - this means that LMG squads cannot suppress more squads per one usage of the ability. With this change are connected few other changes further down the list.

- Removed ammunition cost from HMG teams
- Changed activation cost of Suppressive Fire ability of HMG teams to 15 ammo (from 40)
- Units that can upgrade LMG will gain Suppressive Fire ability upon purchase
- Lowered the Suppressive Fire ability cost of Suppression Stormtroopers to 15 ammunition
- Stormtroopers can no longer upgrade LMG
- Suppressive Fire ability returned to Riflemen when they purchase BAR upgrade
- Johnson LMG changes:
can only fire when static
reload time 2.5 - 3 sec (from 3-4)
cooldown multipliers changed to 0.45/1/1.2/1.4 (from 0.45/1/2/2)

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 13:02
by Warhawks97
I like the changes. But why is the Johnson changed this way? Its lighter and smaller than the BAR. It has more in common with FG42.

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 13:55
by Tiger1996
I think they did it this way to prevent the visual glitch as the soldier looked more like a handicapped person when holding the Johnson as if it's an LMG but still shooting while on the move, i assume it's basically a workaround instead of having to mess around with the weapon animation itself.

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 14:14
by kwok
Or because the BAR was specifically designed to be used won the move while the Johnson was not...

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 14:36
by Black Panther
kwok wrote:Or because the BAR was specifically designed to be used won the move while the Johnson was not...

I don't think the huge BAR weapon, that was given only to rambo style soldiers, that was tall, strong or black, could be able to fire on the move

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 14:45
by kwok
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1918 ... atic_Rifle

"The BAR was designed to be carried by soldiers that were moving forward. It was supposed to be put over the shoulder on a strap and fired from the hip. This was called "walking fire". It was thought that walking fire was needed for trench warfare.[1]"

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 16:58
by Black Panther
Every automatic gun could be used in trenches with a hipfire dude. A lot of things was meant while it was just developing
Johnson is 6.9 kg
BAR is 8.8 kg

Spoiler: show
"Сошки, повышавшие точность оружия по сравнению с точностью винтовки, и опора под прикладом в бою иногда мешали[43], поэтому пулемёт с 1942 года стал производиться только с сошками без лишней опоры под прикладом. Тем не менее, недовольство некоторых сухопутных солдат и морских пехотинцев не убавилось из-за сошек и пламегасителя, которые делали оружие ещё более тяжёлым."

- speaking shortly, it saying that because of the bipod and flash supressor soldiers were very-very angry (!!!!!!!!) because it adds to weapon even more weight

Spoiler: show
"Хотя BAR легче любых других ручных пулемётов, ведение огня с открытого затвора приводит к низкой эффективности стрельбы одиночными выстрелами — вести непрерывный огонь из этого оружия от плеча с учётом мощности используемого патрона мог только сильный и подготовленный стрелок[6]."

- shortly, full-automatic fire could only use STRONG and TRAINED soldier

so yeah, johnson gun should be better on the move and have similiar stats with FG42

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 20:36
by MarKr
Guys, realism is always secondary argument, first is gameplay. As stated in the first post:
kwok wrote:We would like to make upgrading LMG more of a strategic decision rather than flat damage buff to the squad. Therefore, any squad that upgrades an LMG will gain the suppression ability
Gameplay (main) argument for the change: In the new system, LMGs (and Johnson is an LMG) provide suppression ability (in this case it already applied for 101st) so the squads gain more strategic options at the cost of mobility - thus the "can no longer fire on the move".

Realism (secondary) argument: We took a look at the Johnson and compared it to other LMGs - it had longer cooldowns at certain distances than belt-fed LMGs and despite being magazine-fed, just like Bren LMG, it had longer reload times than Bren.

So we changed the cooldown and reload stats to be more comparable to the other magazine-fed LMG in the game - this also partially compensates for the loss of mobility.

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 20:50
by mofetagalactica
¿I wonder if the fg42 is also considered a lmg? ¿Maybe we will have a rework about how they spawn with default weapons and make the fg42 upgradable?

It was considerated normal for a fallchs squad to be all of them fully equiped with fg42, since i can't really find any info about it.

Luftwaffe War Establishment (Kriegsstärkenachweisung) 8121(L) dated 1.5.44 gives the following organization for a rifle platoon in a Fallshirmjägerkompanie:

Zugführer (Platoon Leader) Lt,

Zugtrupp (Platoon HQ section)
1 Zugtruppführer (Sec Ldr)
3 Melder (Messenger)
1 Waffenwart (Armorer)

3 Squads, including in total (for all 3 squads)
3 Gruppenführer (Squad Leader)
3 Stellvertretende Gruppenführer (Deputy Squad Leader)
12 Schützen (Riflemen)
12 MG-Schützen (Machinegunners and assistants)
2 Drivers for 3-ton trucks

All personnel except the Platoon Leader (Lieutenant) were NCOs. NOTE: All enlisted personnel in Luftwaffen Parachute units were NCOs.

The Platoon was armed as follows (the War Establishment does not assign weapons to individuals)

16 Rifles (incl. 3 with sniper telescopes)
13 Pistols
9 Submachineguns
3 Grenade pistols ("Kampfpistole" these were modified flare guns that could shoot small grenades)
6 Rifle grenade adapters
6 Machineguns.

As a comparison, a contemporary Army rifle platoon of the period had 33 personnel and the following weapons:
22 Rifles
5 Pistols
7 Submachineguns
4 Machineguns

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 09 Sep 2019, 21:06
by MarKr
I think FG42 was considered an "automatic rifle". We are not yet at reworking PE but I don't think FG42 will be in the game reclasified to LMG, changes to Luft paradrop infantry loadouts and possible weapon upgrades are, however, likely to happen.

Anyway, this thread is about the changes to MGs in the beta, I would ask to stay on topic and start a separate topic for Luft infantry (though it would make more sense to do so when the Luft doc is actually being worked on).

Re: 5.1.8 Beta: MG Adjustments

Posted: 10 Sep 2019, 00:47
by Warhawks97
FG 42 came after the last air drop operation of crete. It was developed from experiences made in operations but it came too late to be used during such operations. Production ceased after just 7500 build weapons.

The goal was to have a "all in one weapon". Rifle, lmg, assault weapon and even sniper rifle. So technically it could be everything. In BK its some sort of everything except sniper rifle. And i like to have such unique universal weapons in BK in limited ammounts.