New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

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kwok
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New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby kwok » 25 Aug 2019, 20:05

As a few questions came, we wanted to share a bit more about what we've come up with for the new Propaganda doctrine so that we can see what you think about it and you can express your thoughts on the doctrine design.

Any stats mentioned here can change.

Volkssturm.jpg


As we have mentioned before, there will be a new infantry unit - the Volkssturm squad. These will be what is usually known in RTS as a "spam unit". They cost 190MP, can be built at HQ, Barracks and forward HQ and the only condition to build them is to choose the Propaganda doctrine. They are meant to represent conscripted civilians who got only the very basic military training and have absolutely no combat experience at all. This is shown in the game by a unit made of soldiers that have Kar98s as effective (or ineffective?) as Pionners, have 35HP at the start, can only use grenade as an ability and they will actually flee from battle automatically once they have only 3 soldiers in a squad left. Pair this with the fact that Volkssturm squads start as 5-men squads and you will start to see their weaknesses.

Their weaknesses will have a counter-balance. First of all, their Veterancy bonuses are different from other infatry, most notably in the fact that every Veterancy level increases the HP of each soldier which makes the squads grow a lot stronger with veterancy than other squads. They will also only "auto-retreat" when they have no combat experience (a.k.a. "Vet 0") once they gain their first promotion, they will no longer flee from battle unless you order them to.
They will also have a squad upgrage which will allow them to increase squad size...twice. This will be a squad upgrade, not a global upgrade so you will need to spend MP on each squad separately but at the same time it will allow you to upgrade only squads that you need upgraded. Need a cheap recon squad? Build one Volkssturm squad with 5 men and don't upgrade it. Do you need a meat-shield squad? Upgrade them twice. The upgrades are, however available based on the upgraded Phase - after the first Phase upgrade you will be able to get the first extra man, after the last Phase you'll be able to upgrade the other one.

This doctrine will have no access to Grenadiers.

Officer.jpg


An important unit for this doctrine's infantry play will be the Officer. Similarly to the Def doc Officer, the Propaganda Officer will be different too. He will have more abilities, some of which will be locked behind the "Officer unlock" which will give him Binoculars ability as well as make Volkssturms around gain more XP (helping to remove the auto-retreat faster) or an ability that will shrug off suppression from Volkssturms at the cost of Officers's own safety. The Officer will be a great support for your infantry but that also makes him a priority target for the oponent. The officer will come with two "bodyguards", however most of the abilities will only be available if the Officer in the squad is alive, if he dies and the bodyguards still live, you can retreat them and "reinforce" the squad, thus you'll get the commander back faster the squad will also retain its veterancy this way.

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Tiger1996
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby Tiger1996 » 26 Aug 2019, 16:22

This doctrine will have no access to Grenadiers.


Well, I have no objections on this...
However, does this mean that StormTroops are going to be the only units which still have access to STGs in the entire WH faction?!
I mean; even the Grenadiers in Blitz doc currently have no STGs anymore but only MP40s.

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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 26 Aug 2019, 18:19

If this doctrine is playing out like it would in my head; It will be the most fun doc to play as Wehrmacht ever.

You know the MP40 path CP upgrade path for Volkssturm? Why not buff the Volksgrenadiers along with it when you reach there. Like giving them the ability to upgrade 1x STG44 on their squad if they want it. Maybe you could also have the Volkssturm panzerfaust upgrade affect them as well by giving the Volksgrenadiers the panzerfaust upgrade for free with that unlock.

This is a bit off-topic but I wish PE could be re-worked like this. I know there was a idea long time ago of making all PE squads smaller so it isn't so crippling to lose them. But what about only changing the starting Panzer Grenadier squad for this concept and leaving the rest the same? Like I'm thinking 4-5man Panzer Grenadier Squads while there could be the 6-7 men Assault Grenadier squads if people need the extra firepower. Just losing the 'builder' unit as PE is a really crippling blow to them because of how much it costs and how long it takes to build them (since it hampers their tiering/tech-up if they lose it too early). Could also rework how they are meant to be used along with that kind of re-work by having them get certain buffs when next to vehicles/tanks; just an idea for the future re-work of British/PE factions.

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MarKr
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby MarKr » 26 Aug 2019, 18:38

Tiger1996 wrote:However, does this mean that StormTroops are going to be the only units which still have access to STGs in the entire WH faction?!
Yes, that's what it means.

MenciusMoldbug wrote:You know the MP40 path CP upgrade path for Volkssturm? Why not buff the Volksgrenadiers along with it when you reach there. Like giving them the ability to upgrade 1x STG44 on their squad if they want it. Maybe you could also have the Volkssturm panzerfaust upgrade affect them as well by giving the Volksgrenadiers the panzerfaust upgrade for free with that unlock.
The unlock path is meant to focus on Volkssturm squads, not Volks grenadiers. Actually, the whole doctrine's infantry play should revolve around the Volkssturms, if we give an StG44 and free panzerfaust to Volksgrenadiers, it will only encourage to use Vgrens over Volkssturms.
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby Black Panther » 26 Aug 2019, 19:55

Then give MP44 to the volksturm squadleader
you can't just leave the massed weapon only to the grenadiers

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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Aug 2019, 00:16

MarKr wrote: The unlock path is meant to focus on Volkssturm squads, not Volks grenadiers. Actually, the whole doctrine's infantry play should revolve around the Volkssturms, if we give an StG44 and free panzerfaust to Volksgrenadiers, it will only encourage to use Vgrens over Volkssturms.


I would say they are complementary. This doc shouldnt completely forget about the Volksgrens. But it depends how future K98 will look like. But the general idea to give Volksgrens something to play with in this doc wouldnt be wrong.

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MarKr
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby MarKr » 27 Aug 2019, 08:56

I seriously doubt Volksgrens would become "forgotten" in this doctrine. They are still relatively cheap and compared to Volkssturm they can get LMG, have more effective rifles (no matter if the stats stay or get reverted), start with 6 men, have more HP, more suppression-resistant. They are strong enough complementary unit to your main force even without StG44.
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby Black Panther » 27 Aug 2019, 10:54

Also, a question, can we get a helmets for the volksgrens, like in Normandy44 mod, so they won't look like a volksturm

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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby Tiger1996 » 27 Aug 2019, 11:44

Honestly, 4x MP40s for 50 ammo won't do anything against enemy units with 6x Grease/Sten/Thompson SMGs... What i'm trying to say is; i think no StGs will be a global net nerf to Axis inf, given the fact that StormTroops are rarely used due to their high cost, as you need to spend too many CPs and so much munition upgrades to make them finally as effective as they should.. which is a huge risk to invest so hard into StormTroops, because they will be outclassed really quickly as soon as the first Sherman arrives anyway.. not to mention they can't reinforce from the air as Airborne units do, that's why i think paratroopers are often more durable despite being probably weaker stats-wise, but durability and deadly flame nades keep para units more superior in the long term.

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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby fronex » 28 Aug 2019, 10:12

First of all, interesting changes, that will be made in the mod.
I just got one idea in mind, as I saw the models of the Volkssturm. They look very military in their outfits.
But if you just look for pics of the Volkssturm in Google, you always found also people on it with civilian clothes.

Image

Image

I dont know, if already some civilian skins exists, and I know, that its really difficult to make some. The Volksstorm was, like it was here
mentioned before, not a well trained military unit, it was a bunch of mixed people, that didnt even had any unitary uniform. And maybe this
could also be shown in the game.

And one more suggestion, that could maybe have a to big impact for the game. The Panzerfaust was mentioned for easy use, also later
for the Volkstorm and also civilians. Maybe if the Volkssturm unit reached max vet, they could get the possibility to use a Panzerfaust?
Last edited by fronex on 05 Sep 2019, 10:25, edited 1 time in total.

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MarKr
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby MarKr » 28 Aug 2019, 11:28

We are aware of the fact that many of the Volkssturm members had more or less civilian clothes but we decided to go with the retextured Volksgren uniforms. Volkssturm also had all sorts of military uniforms (if Wikipedia is to be trusted):
Wikipedia wrote:The German government tried to issue as many of its members as possible with military uniforms of all sorts, ranging from field-gray to camouflage types. Most members of the Volkssturm, especially elderly members, had no uniform and were not supplied, so they generally wore either work-attire (including railway workers, policemen and firemen) or their civilian clothing and usually carried with them their own personal rucksacks, blankets and cooking-equipment, etc.
One of the reasons why we also decided not to go with civilian skins is that we would like to avoid people complaining to Steam that our mod "promotes murdering of civilians" and similar delusional claims. You may think "waaaaat? nobody would do that" but you would be surprised what sort of crap people came up with over the years :roll:

As for the Pantzerfausts - Volkssturms can upgrade Panzerfaust (upgrade requires unlock) and then use it same way as Volksgrenadiers ;)
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fronex
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby fronex » 28 Aug 2019, 11:34

MarKr wrote:promotes murdering of civilians"


I didnt know that. Yeah, that makes it more complicated.

MarKr wrote:As for the Pantzerfausts - Volkssturms can upgrade Panzerfaust (upgrade requires unlock) and then use it same way as Volksgrenadiers ;)


Nice to read! ^^

Thank for your answer! :)

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XAHTEP39
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby XAHTEP39 » 28 Aug 2019, 20:58

ronex , I sure, that "Historical addon" make some helments and civilian clothes for Volkssturm :twisted:

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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby CGarr » 05 Sep 2019, 04:44

Having the vgrens be upgraded along the vstrums sounds like the best choice to me if grens are going to be removed from terror. Vgrens would fill the support role in this doc in the same way that storms and grens do in blitz/def. As for STG's, I'd rather see them be available in small quantities (1 per combat squad with no upgrade cost) after teching up to a certain point. It'd make fresh built squads more relevant as combat units late game without forcing them to get a weapon upgrade immediately, but it wouldn't be stupidly strong in the way that fully STG upgraded grens used to be.

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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby fronex » 05 Sep 2019, 10:25

I know, its difficult to use historical facts as an argument for a video game. And so its just an idea.

In the tech tree its seen, that the Volkssturm gets a MP40 Upgrade. But in real, the Volkssturm was really bad equipped
with weapons and ammunition. So maybe not the Volkssturm as squad get the possibility to get MP40, but the
Officer and his bodyguards get the StG/MP 44?

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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby MarKr » 05 Sep 2019, 11:39

@fronex: I am not sure how well would that work. You can only have one Officer squad at a time and its role is not really to dish out damage but to provide bonuses and support to the squads around - especially so with Volkssturms, which are weak without veterancy or other buffs. Officer will be a high-value target for your opponents. The "bodyguards" are there not to increase firepower of the squad but to act like a "meatshield" for the Officer so that a sniper or one mortar round doesn't kill the Officer immediately (or at least no so often), so equipping them StG44 is not something required for their purpose.

Also, the Volkssturms can only upgrade the MP40 once and gain 2x MP40, so you cannot get a squad with 4 or more SMGs - this is to, at least partially, represent the fact they were underequipped.
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Re: New Terror/Propaganda Doc: Volkssturm

Postby kwok » 05 Sep 2019, 14:35

To respond to some other points contrasting volkssturm with volksgrens, this is something we thought about A LOT. We want to say that by intended design right now there is a significant difference in role between the two units even if they might have similar names and weapon loadouts.

The volksgrens have frequently and will continue to be something likened to a parallel to riflemen, basic infantry units with combat capability that will hold up through all stages of the game but not necessarily be game ending.

Volkssturm are essentially militia units designed to be more "filler" with a unique macro advantage that we hope to see in the beta tests. That being said, don't want to give out TOO much info because I like to see how meta's build up organically without specific direction. But, some hints on how we intended volkssturm to be used is to gain a numerical advantage because of their cheap costs plus build order availability and stay alive only through the support of other units, not as standalone fighters.
So like Markr said, they are not fighters thus will likely not have stg44s.


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