Def doctrine meta

[Black Panther]

Last few days I was playing doctrine and thanks to my friend, I found a really OP meta:
T2 - halftrack with AA, pak36
T3 - Marder with top MG42/Pz4 with short barrel (both things are great at supressing infantry, but one is more focused on tanks and other on infantry, your choice)
Doctrinal unlocks:
First thing you want to do is rush for the hotwizers, they are really OP - good accuracy and damage, while being early - all that with comprassion with allied counter-parts. It comes earlier than priests, 105mm howies and can easily counter-barrage them, since allied weaponry rarely can hit you due a lower accuracy. This will be nightmare for Brit's forward HQ, I promise it.
Also, its just grinds EXP for you very fast, allowing to research in CP tree even faster.

Second, is will be a road to the Stupa. This is the only offensive mid-late game vehicle, that can somehow make doctrine less boring, being able to push the enemy. (because really this is the only thing for offensive)

Third, you either choose evasion bonus for infantry or the Panther bunker.
While first one gives your infantry a lot survability, the second, has a two targets - getting off all artillery fire on itself, so enemy probably has to split his targets between your OP howies or trying to bombard the bunker, which one is holding vital front and don't allow enemy to push anyhow.
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But, if you are playing 1v1, the best thing you want to research - is the evasion bonus. At every vital point of the map, you will have a volks squad with MG34 and with evasion bonus, they most likely will be unkillable, if not engaged by tanks or +2 squads. Every engagement will be cost-effective for you and waste of MP for your enemy, just remember to cover you squads with AT weaponry.

Any other tips: Hotwizer can be shared with your teammates, via decrewing it and crewing it then with allied forces, allowing your teammates to ignore researching/building their own artillery, while having access to the most powerful (vet3 howie is it) artillery in game and grind as much faster, as you.

Vet3 howie has a significant range bonus for it's 50 ammo barrage, even longer than a 75 ammo one, so try to save your vets.
Not even talking about that on mid-range, artillery will have a pin-point accuracy. Priests, enemy hotwizers or heavy tanks will be dead for sure.

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So there is my suggestion:
Def doctrine is much forgotten arty spam doctrine, that no one uses. But still, it is being very boring to play, since you are only sticking to defense strategy, instead of, I'd say, having the same, but weaker offensive units as other doctrines has.
Adding a Pz4 G/J with a top MG would help it alot.
Why J/G?
Introducing G, would give axis a tank with armor of F2 version, but having a MG42 addding it's threat against enemy infantry. Better than nothing.
While Pz4 J has to pay golden ammunition for it's armor to be on the same level as Pz4 H (but still the turret speed).

This way, we could give Def doctrine more flexability instead of one focused strategy doctrine play, that players hates so much on allied doctrines.
Nothing being boring, as having in T3 only tank hunters tanks and no any multi-role vehicle.

Also, Grille would go for the Blitz doctrine instead of Stupa, while Stupa itself going to the Terror doctrine.
While some other unit's that there are no space in doctrinal research, could be bought via usual Tier buildings, to having less pressure on the doctrinal research tree.

[Black Panther]

This was 1v1 against andrusha with Def doctrine, good example of 1v1 build order!

[Warhawks97]

Last few days I was playing doctrine and thanks to my friend, I found a really OP meta:
T2 - halftrack with AA, pak36
T3 - Marder with top MG42/Pz4 with short barrel (both things are great at supressing infantry, but one is more focused on tanks and other on infantry, your choice)
Doctrinal unlocks:
First thing you want to do is rush for the hotwizers, they are really OP - good accuracy and damage, while being early - all that with comprassion with allied counter-parts. It comes earlier than priests, 105mm howies and can easily counter-barrage them, since allied weaponry rarely can hit you due a lower accuracy. This will be nightmare for Brit's forward HQ, I promise it.
Also, its just grinds EXP for you very fast, allowing to research in CP tree even faster.

Second, is will be a road to the Stupa. This is the only offensive mid-late game vehicle, that can somehow make doctrine less boring, being able to push the enemy. (because really this is the only thing for offensive)

I started playing BK in september 2011. And this Meta is at least as old as i play BK.
Stupa is the most famous meta and the only one that has never been changed since the beginning of BK. All metas got changed over time, just not this one.

I dont play def doc often bc i found it generally boring to play, but if i do so i play exactly this way.
Usually the marder II got used with the top mounted MG42. Two of these cheap things usually covered a stupa and combined they wrecked any army send against them, tanks as well as inf.
Later on the Jagdpanzer IV/A with the Panther canon is being used. Over time, with low losses due to generally campy gameplay, there is a Stupa as well as a marder II and Jagdpanzer IV/A as protection.

Against organized mates everything the def doc dude gets is stupa and arty, while mates guard it with inf (often fallis), Jagdpanzers (Hetzer), and tanks. Usual combo was or still is the Stupa/Panther (Stupanther) death squadron

Third, you either choose evasion bonus for infantry or the Panther bunker.
While first one gives your infantry a lot survability, the second, has a two targets - getting off all artillery fire on itself, so enemy probably has to split his targets between your OP howies or trying to bombard the bunker, which one is holding vital front and don't allow enemy to push anyhow.

Building bunkers gives you lots of exp, so in the past players tended to get bunkers up in order to get the stupa without going into any real engagment before.

But, if you are playing 1v1, the best thing you want to research - is the evasion bonus. At every vital point of the map, you will have a volks squad with MG34 and with evasion bonus, they most likely will be unkillable, if not engaged by tanks or +2 squads. Every engagement will be cost-effective for you and waste of MP for your enemy, just remember to cover you squads with AT weaponry.

There is no better boost for infantry as that defensive upgrade. As long as you have cover (and late game maps are full of craters) your infantry becomes virtually immun to suppression and takes far less damage. Add vet bonuses to it and you have top class inf for cheap cost.
Many players got right for this upgrade first before anything else.

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So there is my suggestion:
Def doctrine is much forgotten arty spam doctrine, that no one uses. But still, it is being very boring to play, since you are only sticking to defense strategy, instead of, I'd say, having the same, but weaker offensive units as other doctrines has.
Adding a Pz4 G/J with a top MG would help it alot.
Why J/G?
Introducing G, would give axis a tank with armor of F2 version, but having a MG42 addding it's threat against enemy infantry. Better than nothing.
While Pz4 J has to pay golden ammunition for it's armor to be on the same level as Pz4 H (but still the turret speed).

yes, its boring to play and thus not played often. But its one of the most frustrating docs to play against, just alone bc of the stupa.
I tend to avoid axis players and in particular teams of which i know that their entire strategy is based camping and stupa.

The Panzer IV H and in particular the J should be more widley spread among german doctrines and should almost become some sort of basic tank.
It was the most produced Panzer IV version. But instead we see F2´s everywhere.

The Panzer IV J has btw better armor than F2, even without the skirts.

Also, Grille would go for the Blitz doctrine instead of Stupa, while Stupa itself going to the Terror doctrine.
While some other unit's that there are no space in doctrinal research, could be bought via usual Tier buildings, to having less pressure on the doctrinal research tree.

Stupa gets moved to BK, beta is already available. Def doc will lose the stupa in future.
But the grille is just another pile of bullshit unit that gets abused all day long due to its sniper ability or its "guided ammunition".

[kwok]

Any chance you can split this post, one as a guide and one as a balance suggestion? Having a guide builds the community and having a balance suggestion post will strengthen the argument.

So far, I like your post a lot just because it has an element of "how to play" instead of just complaining when facing it.

As for the balance suggestions, while it might be boring for you and warhawks to play, i wouldn't say it's the common opinion. I've seen plenty of players who do like def doc & its still (admittedly mostly comp stompers but def some pvp players too). And in terms of not played often, definitely disagree. In my past two weeks of playing, I've seen a growth in def doc players. Had 3 games in a row where there was a def doc player.

It sounds more like stylistically you prefer terror doc (and ironically warhawks would like blitz doc even though he has vocally hated it on the beta patch). Terror doc has a small camp element to it in order to gain fuel so that it can advance with multi-role units. Def doc is meant to be more of a slow creep playstyle. Future reworks of the doctrine will continue to reward defensive playstyles over aggression but hopefully with more skill based than camp based. We will see though... executing reworks take a lot of time to go and think through, so news will come even slower.

[Black Panther]

Building bunkers gives you lots of exp, so in the past players tended to get bunkers up in order to get the stupa without going into any real engagment before.

I don't really like going first into the bunkers, since hotwizer loosing it's main advantage being the earliest artillery tool in the game (not counting in calliope jeep bs). And artillery support, bunkers will probably target #1 for artillery. I prefer doing much damage as I can do in quick manner, than saving up troops or emplacements.

There is no better boost for infantry as that defensive upgrade. As long as you have cover (and late game maps are full of craters) your infantry becomes virtually immun to suppression and takes far less damage. Add vet bonuses to it and you have top class inf for cheap cost.
Many players got right for this upgrade first before anything else.

Didn't really try it in >2v2, 3v3 games, maybe it's better, but anyway I find hotwizer more universal tool to make casulties for enemy team, also I think kinda disperced vehicles from T3, will find a hard time supporting infantry, most because of their specialized manner.

I've seen a growth in def doc players. Had 3 games in a row where there was a def doc player.

Ha-ha, maybe because I was jerking def doc out for a last weeks

[kwok]

Lol maybe. What’s your steam name?

[Warhawks97]

As for the balance suggestions, while it might be boring for you and warhawks to play, i wouldn't say it's the common opinion. I've seen plenty of players who do like def doc & its still (admittedly mostly comp stompers but def some pvp players too). And in terms of not played often, definitely disagree. In my past two weeks of playing, I've seen a growth in def doc players. Had 3 games in a row where there was a def doc player.

Those who play the doc usually play it bc of arty and stupa.

I havent played BK for roughly a month or so.
Why? I played 5 games, tried "open maps" and guess what? In 3 out of the 5 games i faced def doc and intense base camp with lots of AT guns and sometimes bunkers. In one occassion double def doc and terror. We had arty doc but the ammount of ammo on that map (eg Bliwja) wasnt enough to counter bomb the extensive defensive build up. We played better and dominated the map in the first part of the game, but we couldnt get through the defense line made up in front of their base. Then came Stupa with its hyper accuracy and insta kill everything (fast flanking td´s, elite AB squads... all just oneshot from extrem range) and the rest of the story is probably known.

And in one game we faced against heavy def/terror camper near their base. And then stockpiling Panthers just to guard the god damn stupa that made over 60% of all kills for the enemy team.

So yeah, those who play it just want to be jerking fucktards and to piss everyone off. And the only reason why i might play BK again is to do exactly the same to everyone else. Not for fun or winning a game, but just to ruin everyones day and fun to play BK, esspecially for the average community (which are no 24/7 players) which have usually no idea how to counter such gameplay.

It sounds more like stylistically you prefer terror doc (and ironically warhawks would like blitz doc even though he has vocally hated it on the beta patch). Terror doc has a small camp element to it in order to gain fuel so that it can advance with multi-role units. Def doc is meant to be more of a slow creep playstyle. Future reworks of the doctrine will continue to reward defensive playstyles over aggression but hopefully with more skill based than camp based. We will see though... executing reworks take a lot of time to go and think through, so news will come even slower.

I didnt "hate" the Bk doc change, i just disliked the huge delay of Panzer IV´s, early combat call in that provides early on fuel free tanks and the fact that stupa hasnt got changed and that the stupa/Panther combo can now be played by one player alone when before two were at least required.
And that the doc got "AP" ammo upgrade when there could have been much better and more usefull and doctrine fitting upgrades.
But i never sayed that i hate the overall idea.

[Viper]

I didnt "hate" the Bk doc change, i just disliked the huge delay of Panzer IV´s, early combat call in that provides early on fuel free tanks and the fact that stupa hasnt got changed and that the stupa/Panther combo can now be played by one player alone when before two were at least required.
And that the doc got "AP" ammo upgrade when there could have been much better and more usefull and doctrine fitting upgrades.
But i never sayed that i hate the overall idea.

yes.

i really dont understand the logic of delaying panzer.iv by 2 command points. and at the same time allowing stupa 3 command points earlier (from 6 command points in defensive doctrine to only 3 command points in the new blitzkrieg doctrine) .....

and ammo upgrade can be replaced by maultier unlock. then the bottom line of the doctrine can be reorganized so the stupa would require at least 4 or 5 command points. and stuka airstrike should require less command points. and maultier not more than 2 points. and leig18 blitz doctrine exclusive and not reward of 50 mm pak. etc.....
all that was already told on the beta topic.

and the biggest problems of the current patch are 105 mm howitzers and mounted 50cals killing planes so fast.

[kwok]

Let’s bring these repetitive ideas back to the rework forum and not here. You can repost on that topic if you have newer arguments.