A possible re-work of British Tiering

[MenciusMoldbug]

When playing with and vs British for sometime in BK I noticed that they have a very linear-playstyle that always goes from AT Boys to Recce to Armor truck/AT weapons stuff. There's no variation to how one can play British because of how most units are locked behind either the officers or the trucks. It turns into more of a 'positioning-warfare' for Brits early-mid game to somehow surprise the Axis with their build order by coming from unexpected directions; not because the Axis don't know what the Brits are building.

If I was to change the British Teching system, it would look like this:



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Legend:

White Line - What is required to build this unit

Orange Line - Possible Reward unit switch-out in the main menu

Dark Green Line - Possible Doctrine unit switch-out

Red Box - Royal Engineer Doctrine Only

Blue Box - Royal Airforce/Commando Doctrine Only

Green Box - Royal Artillery Doctrine Only

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On particular changes of note:

- Bren carrier is allowed without the LT because I want to 'nerf' it to be vulnerable to small arms fire from machineguns and STG44's (especially in close range). In exchange the Bren carrier comes earlier and costs less manpower to field.

- Dingo is now core unit (and requires LT because Dingo rush is still pretty good vs PE) because playing without proper recon as British sometimes is hard enough already.

- 2-inch mortar doesn't require the Support Truck, only the Lieutenant.

- You still need the Lieutenant to unlock the Support Truck.

- The Staghound and 57mm Halftrack are non-doctrinal units (thus available to all doctrines).

- Stuart, 75mm Autocar, and Tetrach do not require Captain as it reveals doctrine choice to Axis players. Which is a huge advantage if for example you know as PE the British player is going RE; then you know which doctrine to pick.

- The 4.2 Inch mortar requires Captain because I think it's a really good mortar; especially with super-charged rounds.

- Cromwell requires Captain before being fielded. The Command Tank, M4A4 Sherman, Crusader, and Mk IV Churchill (with no HE Shells) can all be 'rushed' if one wants them fast.

- Tank Commander is available without requiring the Command Tank because he takes forever to build already (I think his build time should be reduced).

- Command Tank does not require the Captain and you can get the vehicles required afterwards with the CP unlock just having the command tank. At first I thought all of them should require the Captain and Command Tank both. But I hoenstly think it's fine this way because the Captain is locking AT weapons that you might need early-mid game (He will also be locking the 17 pounder emplacement and the 25 pounder emplacement but I didn't put that on the image). Perhaps the only problem would be the HE Churchill Rush coming a bit too fast but then you can just lock only that vehicle behind Captain and Command Tank.

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Basically, it's opening up British tiering so you are a bit more surprised by what the British player builds and sometimes he won't even build the AT-boys from the start if he wants to; giving the shwimmwagens and scout car openings a bit more edge if they surprise the British player (or the other way around). Hopefully it will make British a bit less dull to play around with but this does not include doctrine changes which I might or might not get to later.

[Warhawks97]

When playing with and vs British for sometime in BK I noticed that they have a very linear-playstyle that always goes from AT Boys to Recce to Armor truck/AT weapons stuff. There's no variation to how one can play British because of how most units are locked behind either the officers or the trucks. It turns into more of a 'positioning-warfare' for Brits early-mid game to somehow surprise the Axis with their build order by coming from unexpected directions; not because the Axis don't know what the Brits are building.

True, and that issue is known for a long time. The strenght of CW was its tier system, but once getting interrupted, like recce dies too early, you get in huge trouble and comebacks are hard to achieve.

- Bren carrier is allowed without the LT because I want to 'nerf' it to be vulnerable to small arms fire from machineguns and STG44's (especially in close range). In exchange the Bren carrier comes earlier and costs less manpower to field.

But dont make its armor useless. It should not become a normal jeep.

- The Staghound and 57mm Halftrack are non-doctrinal units (thus available to all doctrines).

sounds good and important. All sides have multrole vehicles aka greyhound and Puma etc, just brits lacked it.

- Stuart, 75mm Autocar, and Tetrach do not require Captain as it reveals doctrine choice to Axis players. Which is a huge advantage if for example you know as PE the British player is going RE; then you know which doctrine to pick.

Indeed. US Stuart should perhaps also not require logistic company upgrade.

- Cromwell requires Captain before being fielded. The Command Tank, M4A4 Sherman, Crusader, and Mk IV Churchill (with no HE Shells) can all be 'rushed' if one wants them fast.

yes. But why shall cromwell require captain? For balance?
Perhaps it would be enough with flanking speeds being changed (talking about the ability in general. Lots of vehicles become hilarious racing cars).

Also i hope that we get MK IV (6 pdr gun) and VI (75 mm) and MK V (95 mm howitzer) churchills as early churchills with more realistic armor (101 mm max) and normal MK VII (152-182 mm armor and 75 mm gun) and MK VIII (152 mm armor and 95 mm howitzer) as late game churchill, not just the crocc version of it.
These late versions would ofc require command tank.

- Tank Commander is available without requiring the Command Tank because he takes forever to build already (I think his build time should be reduced).

yes. sounds good.

- Command Tank does not require the Captain and you can get the vehicles required afterwards with the CP unlock just having the command tank. At first I thought all of them should require the Captain and Command Tank both. But I hoenstly think it's fine this way because the Captain is locking AT weapons that you might need early-mid game (He will also be locking the 17 pounder emplacement and the 25 pounder emplacement but I didn't put that on the image). Perhaps the only problem would be the HE Churchill Rush coming a bit too fast but then you can just lock only that vehicle behind Captain and Command Tank.

agreed.
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Basically, it's opening up British tiering so you are a bit more surprised by what the British player builds and sometimes he won't even build the AT-boys from the start if he wants to; giving the shwimmwagens and scout car openings a bit more edge if they surprise the British player (or the other way around). Hopefully it will make British a bit less dull to play around with but this does not include doctrine changes which I might or might not get to later.

I would wish the same for other factions as well.
Its also dull to list vehicles always automatically as "lower tiered" than any tank (even the worst of it).


Instead more flexible options. EG why PE needs inf support center or anything for inf when someone wants rather tanks and vehicles which means only logistic comany and Tank hunter/Tank support command. Meanwhile all inf upgrades would logically require the inf support center.


Or why US needs WSC in order to get access to vehicles. Instead vehicles and tanks could be more independent with tank factory only requiring Logistic company and its upgrade.
And Supply yard freed from everything so that players can choose to either unlock units first or lowering the upkeep cost of those he has (even if its only rifle squads). Kind of early game focused to win battles fast (thus go for unit unlocks) or focused for the long game (supply yard as early as possible to gain ressource advantage for mid to late game.


And WH buildings just based on HQ upgrades, but second building (war barracks) wouldnt be required to build the third building (which btw should not be a "Tank factory light" and instead get its old name back (assault weaponary) with Stugs, rocket arty, stubby tank IV´s and Pumas in it.


Lots of stuff to boost flexibility and to offer different ways to begin a game.

[Black Panther]

Cromwel should be bought without a captain, however flanking speed should require a bought captain to use

[mofetagalactica]

There i improved it, stuart armor for the initial phase is just hard to balance after cal50 changes so i think its a bit too strong and changed it for something more interesting that its still vulnerable to 20mm and can be mixed with the bren carriers

[kwok]

Coming back to this post as we start doing more work.

My initial thoughts as a whole is a lot of these changes are removing tech blockers, effectively making a lot of units earlier. That being said, would brits end up constantly being "one step ahead" and bully out other factions that way? How do you balance that shift?

[Warhawks97]

Well, i would remove some tec barriers for all factions to be honest.

Like When PE feels like he doesnt need boosted inf at all or not even special inf, why not leaving him with his tanks. He will go into battle with tanks but with poor infantry support. That might be even more true as hopefully PE starts operating with smaller (4-5 men but with good stats) squads. He can try going into battle with Panthers and stuff only supported by basic 4 men gren squad instead of 5 men boosted assault gren squads.


WH could be allowed to quickly rush all HQ upgrades and getting the building he wants. He then might have stugs but no AT guns or halftracks as support. Or he gets Panzer IV late versions, Panthers and Tigers from the Tank Factory, but no vehicles, stugs, rocket arty and AT guns.


US could have its WSC and supply yard independent. But not building those would perhaps mean that his infantry cant get certain weapons (abilties like stickies but also certain upgrades). Here the motorpool and Tank depot should however stick. (A portsion of the fuel cost required to get supply yard can be moved to tank depot in order to keep required fuel for tanks in check).


Kind of this approach. Less determined tecs. People that try to rush only for tanks can easily get overwhelmed by vehicles and infantry or will lack fuel as they didnt cap enough fuel.

[kwok]

Warhawks,

I know where you're going for and you know personally i prefer removing tech barriers as experienced in my old coh2 mod. But, this is just not what most people want and not how bk has been historically. What we've seen instead is if we drop tech barriers people will almost always rush to the later units without trying to get the earlier ones at all. The reason for this is partially how units are designed from an attempted "realism" perspective where many units can be multipurpose, so the strategy is to rush the strongest multipurpose unit to defeat other multipurpose.

The idea of all units available right away worked in my mod is because i sacrificed realism for extremely specialized units where every unit has an intended role. This is where it differs and so requires a different approach. I dont see this changing anytime soon for BK, especially when things like improved 50cals, HE rounds on tank destroyers, flat buffs to elite infantry, etc. are something WANTED by the community.

[mofetagalactica]

Even if you put less tech barriers your income will be your barrier, so its not like things will come super early anyway or will be able to rush if your opponent uses that investment on more infantry and vehicles to pressure, but i think it will be a hell to balance, so.. the only units that should be outside tech barriers should be units that are not totally inmune to initial AT/INF for CW.

Another thing that bother me is how useless the command units can be on games taken to a point where you only just make them 1 time to unlock stuff and never again (leutenant/captain/cromwell command) we should rework these units. So maybe new habilities, 2 bodyguards, cromwell with new habilities and a working cannon?)

[Warhawks97]

Warhawks,

I know where you're going for and you know personally i prefer removing tech barriers as experienced in my old coh2 mod. But, this is just not what most people want and not how bk has been historically. What we've seen instead is if we drop tech barriers people will almost always rush to the later units without trying to get the earlier ones at all. The reason for this is partially how units are designed from an attempted "realism" perspective where many units can be multipurpose, so the strategy is to rush the strongest multipurpose unit to defeat other multipurpose.

These straight "late tec rush" is known to bk. And many have failed because they didnt invest into the mid games.

I mean the entire debate for years about "Tigers are weak vs Tigers are good enough" is all about that. The Majority was just sitting arround, defending only as much as necessary to get the tiger in an desperate attempt to somehow turn the game.

I mean what would you thing how far a guy would get with a Jagdpanther and only a few standard 4 men squads of basic grens?
And these guys still have to defend an area which requires AT guns which requires, yes, a building between barracks and tank factory.

And in Teamfights? Well, what you think a guy who just gets barracks and tank depot will have in his CP count? So at the end he might have just build the other buildings as well in order to get the CP.
I had games with players that, after having all base buildings build, went arround to OP every damn shitpost just to get the CP. Def doc bunker spam to get the CP for stupa was probably one of the most famous "CP farm by building".


So at some point, they would have to invest somewhere anyway for CP. If they want to fight them, they need at least one building between the first and last one anyway to stand a chance.

What can happen is that players go for stugs/shermans and early Tank IV´s right away, but the enemie has meanwhile access to AT guns and vehicles which will probably dominate them.

So these "ultimate" units wont come much quicker as they do now, no matter how you allow players to build their buildings. It would just allow players to get what they need when they need it. I think everyone will figure out when his time has come to go defensive or offensive and he builds his base accordingly.

The idea of all units available right away worked in my mod is because i sacrificed realism for extremely specialized units where every unit has an intended role. This is where it differs and so requires a different approach. I dont see this changing anytime soon for BK, especially when things like improved 50cals, HE rounds on tank destroyers, flat buffs to elite infantry, etc. are something WANTED by the community.

Well, as said, BK has just a very basic stock of units that dont need CP, and most of them are quite for a specifc role. Everything else needs CP. Infantry in this case isnt affected by it as the important factor when they come is their CP cost, not the tec requirments.

Vehicles? They will appear not much faster as they do now, or, in case someone skips them, come even later.
Tanks? You can only really rush for the stock stugs and stuff but only a tiny bit earlier as you just safe the 15 fuel of the second building. And you will be left totally defensless against stuarts untill then while your stuff can get killed by 57 mm that is available for a quite a while already.

Rushing shermans? Well, in my thoughts US would still need motorpool and stuff. They can only skip the 15 fuel WSC to get the M20 bit faster, but they would have no access to cal 50 jeeps that require the WSC (for example). The Tank depot gets a fuel cost increase of 25 fuel taken from the supply yard build cost that drops by 25. And everything above sherman is again CP unlock.

PE? Would still require logistic company upgrade to get access to tank buildings. Tanks come earlier but you have no real infantry support and the good stuff costs CP.

CW? CW has always been able to rush the trucks out and quickly the first sherman cromwell. As long as the truck system stays, this is the main delaying factor.

WH? Rusing long barreld tank IV? Well, you can skip the Second building but the tanks arent in the third but in the fourth Building. So, rushing Tank IV´s means no AT guns, no stugs. In fact, no defense but HMG and 37 mm AT. Thus i doubt tank IV´s with long barrel would appear earlier.


As you can see, lots of tradeoffs and only "semi" independence. Like you cant skip the very first building for example (barracks).
So its more a question of "AT gun or Stug?", "Stug or Tank IV?" or "Tanks with infantry or without?" (PE). And not "Pios or Tiger?". So you can always only skip small parts of the tier system on usual situations.

[kwok]

This is what I was personally thinking. What do you guys think?

Notes:

Lieutenant and Captain fuel costs will be 0.
Lieutenant gains bodygaurd units and cost an additional 100mp.
Field truck fuel cost increase by 20fu.
Armor truck fuel cost increase by 40fu.
New squad: Assault squad - a 4 man tommy squad with stens instead of lee enfields. Added because brits tend to have a really hard early game in urban maps unless they go RAF.

[Warhawks97]

Looks good.

But do you think that a squad with 4 men and just 60HP per model is suited for close combat action?
What about making enfield squad 5 men and the sten squad 5 men with later option to upgrade to 6 men? Would add flexibility to early game while dropping build and build time costs.


Also wouldnt it make sense to make the AA tank doc specific when they get the M16? Or AA tank for RE and M16 for RA? Just thoughts.

[CGarr]

This is what I was personally thinking. What do you guys think?

new brits_basic.jpg

Notes:

Lieutenant and Captain fuel costs will be 0.
Lieutenant gains bodygaurd units and cost an additional 100mp.
Field truck fuel cost increase by 20fu.
Armor truck fuel cost increase by 40fu.
New squad: Assault squad - a 4 man tommy squad with stens instead of lee enfields. Added because brits tend to have a really hard early game in urban maps unless they go RAF.

Looks good, although I agree with Hawks that the assault tommies should get an upgrade option later in the game to 6 man squads, 4 man with smg's is just asking to get wiped late game by HE. Maybe give them a gammon bomb ability or something if they stay a 4 man squad so they at least serve as more than just a mediocre cqb squad late game, possibly with the ability being traded for the extra men if the upgrade is implemented. I'm picturing something like this (similar to the idea presented with original Vsturms where extra man upgrade isn't just a given, it'd make sense here since the models aren't made of paper and have at least some purpose other than just capping pre-upgrade):

Assault tommies (4 man + double Gammon or throwable smoke) --> Assault tommies optional upgrade late game (6 man, no gammon, maybe throwable smoke)

[kwok]

About the assault tommies.
Maybe the upgrade to allow 6 man squads instead of 4 so they dont get wiped by late HE, but i'm against giving them more utility like smoke and gammon because the unit would start overlapping with other late units not shown in the "base" tree I suggested. Their intent was to fill a gap I found in brits to be able to contest urban areas in the early game. Beyond that, units like commandos and RE squads exist to fill the gap. My thought is maybe having the upgrade to 6 man squads only available to a reworked arty doctrine only (maybe for other doctrines).

The new tree in itself I think is a major buff so I'd rather not give a new uber unit, just a unit to keep the faction adaptable to maps.

Also looking at ways to make brits more "home sector" focused to get rid of the "basebomb on combat areas" problem. So the solution might be to have the HQ truck only stay in the HQ area that has the basebomb blocker on. The other two trucks can park anywhere but they would NOT be consider bases thus can be bombed.

[mofetagalactica]

I like the idea of upgrading to 6 man squads on the late game (tommies) and im also good with the new tiering.

About the trucks not giving up base sector lock.
¿Would this means that they cant lock points now?
¿Should we have units that magically close up sectors wich can be abused on certain maps? (PE scout cars / CW trucks)
¿Why the trucks needs to be on captured territory to build units?
¿Shouldn't they be able to deploy anywhere and build up units where they want to?

[MenciusMoldbug]

You know I've been thinking about this a bit more and wouldn't it be easier to balance the difference between the british sherman and cromwell by having the cromwell get a CP cost in exchange for changing it to the MK V cromwell with 100mm of armor at the front? So the sherman could be like the early P4's WH or PE would get and the cromwell can be like a P4 H? Just a thought.

[Warhawks97]

MK V? Out of 3066 produced cromwells, 1935 were MK IV and very late in the war the MK VII came out with the mentioned over 100 mm armor. Of those, 1500 existed, either converted or build. I, and III made up 557 and 341 build MK VI with 95 mm howitzer. I doubt there were any MK V´s involved or they were just experimental.

And i woudlnt replace the MK IV by a MK VII. Only adding a MK VII. But technically, the Comet tank is already an MK VII just with a better gun.
On top of that, realistically speaking, the the slopped armor from the sherman provided better protection as the cromwells 102 mm armor. So if anything, the sherman would be the one being more tanky than the cromwell, esspecially compared to the MK IV model. And thats how i would keep it. Just the sherman gun sucks. Its special AP rounds are APCBC rounds in the descritpion if my memory serves me right. Those could penetrated even the 70 mm armor from Tank III´s pretty well.
If the gun would work, the tank would work. It would be cheaper, better armored as the cromwell and having a working gun. I wouldnt make these tanks a reward at all.