Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

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MenciusMoldbug
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Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 02 May 2019, 22:24

Croc Sherman should not require the 76mm Sherman unlock to get. Flammen Hetzer shouldn't need the flame grenade unlock to get either. They are rare as it is (especially airborne doctrine croc tanks because almost nobody unlocks the 76mm sherman there). They should match the price of their normal counterparts with at best costing 10 more fuel (so croc sherman should be 50 fuel instead of 60). Their role is incredibly niche as it is because they are out-ranged by AT infantry which can run away the second they fire their AT weapons at these tanks.

I would like to make a proposal to also change the reload mechanism on these tanks. Crocodile sherman alone takes 6 seconds to reload the main gun after 2 flame stream bursts. This completely screws over the tank in cqc engagements with infantry because you don't know when this reload will trigger; same goes for flammen hetzer.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 May 2019, 00:18

+1

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gtu660
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby gtu660 » 03 May 2019, 02:11

indeed +1
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Panzerblitz1
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 03 May 2019, 11:06

gtu660 wrote:indeed +1


GTU, please resize your signature, its way too big, i sent you a message in your forum mail box regarding that, you can use this link to have the correct size https://zupimages.net/up/19/18/wmer.png of read the forum rules viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14 , but please, resize your giant signature picture, thanks.
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kwok
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby kwok » 03 May 2019, 15:22

by change the reload mechanism, what do you mean? make it 1 burst per reload? change it so it doesnt stop shooting when units leave range? i can't remember how it's actually set up tbh, which i guess is your point in the flame tanks aren't used much.

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gtu660
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby gtu660 » 03 May 2019, 17:16

kwok wrote:by change the reload mechanism, what do you mean? make it 1 burst per reload? change it so it doesnt stop shooting when units leave range? i can't remember how it's actually set up tbh, which i guess is your point in the flame tanks aren't used much.

the flamme take alot to reload and this its bad to fight infantry and specialy AT crews
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Warhawks97
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 May 2019, 18:38

kwok wrote:by change the reload mechanism, what do you mean? make it 1 burst per reload? change it so it doesnt stop shooting when units leave range? i can't remember how it's actually set up tbh, which i guess is your point in the flame tanks aren't used much.


you fire 3 bursts, each 1-2 sec long with 0.5 sec cooldown between each burst. The reload is then 6 seconds long.

Question: Why 6 sec long reload?

One way to solve it would be in setting reload times to 0 sec. This way we would only work with cooldowns between bursts. Bursts might be 2-3 sec long, 0.5 sec cooldown.

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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby kwok » 03 May 2019, 19:25

If reload times are set to zero, I’m inclined to say it’s important cooldowns are longer. And I don’t think bursts should be too long without knowing the damage impacts as well. Flame weaponry has always been tricky to tweak because of the damage over time (dot) values.

I assume you think 6s is too long. Fun fact, most AT guns have a reload time of 6s. Why are those 6s long?

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 03 May 2019, 22:13

My own problem with flame tanks regarding their reload is that their damage values become inconsistent for a short range unit. Croc Flamethrower tank has like what 30 range? You can count on a HE Sherman or a Stuart to 'kite' deadly AT infantry or juke PAK's if necessary. Can't be done with a Croc Sherman since it has to get in their face to actually use its main gun.

Now what happens when you run your Croc Sherman next to a building with AT infantry hoping to instantly kill them with it, but then you realise its in the 6 second reload time and the shrecks inside the house only need 2 seconds to aim and kill it? The Croc Sherman is never seen again.

I honestly don't think cooldowns matter that much imo. You can change it higher if the reload is set to 0 but the flamthrower tanks usually instantly kill most infantry; which is their main job. Light vehicles and tanks are a different story since it's more about micro in avoiding the Croc/Flamme Hetzer killing them.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 May 2019, 13:39

kwok wrote:If reload times are set to zero, I’m inclined to say it’s important cooldowns are longer. And I don’t think bursts should be too long without knowing the damage impacts as well. Flame weaponry has always been tricky to tweak because of the damage over time (dot) values.

I assume you think 6s is too long. Fun fact, most AT guns have a reload time of 6s. Why are those 6s long?



you cant compare a long range weapon that deals massive blows in a single shot with a very short range (only grenades have shorter ranges) weapon (35 range) that is meant to deal damage over time.

Its as Menicus says:


MenciusMoldbug wrote:My own problem with flame tanks regarding their reload is that their damage values become inconsistent for a short range unit. Croc Flamethrower tank has like what 30 range? You can count on a HE Sherman or a Stuart to 'kite' deadly AT infantry or juke PAK's if necessary. Can't be done with a Croc Sherman since it has to get in their face to actually use its main gun.

Now what happens when you run your Croc Sherman next to a building with AT infantry hoping to instantly kill them with it, but then you realise its in the 6 second reload time and the shrecks inside the house only need 2 seconds to aim and kill it? The Croc Sherman is never seen again.

I honestly don't think cooldowns matter that much imo. You can change it higher if the reload is set to 0 but the flamthrower tanks usually instantly kill most infantry; which is their main job. Light vehicles and tanks are a different story since it's more about micro in avoiding the Croc/Flamme Hetzer killing them.



Change reload to 0 seconds and cooldowns can be 1-2 secs. I mean what to reload when you have only a fuel tank. Cooldown is one thing but long reloads?

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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby kwok » 05 May 2019, 00:08

Just bringing up a lot of caution because for as long as it was remembered, flame weapons have been adjusted many times but never balanced. Almost every tweak either did nothing or morphed the game in a way that was pretty divisive.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Flamethrower tanks shouldn't cost CP's and be cheaper

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 May 2019, 12:26

kwok wrote:Just bringing up a lot of caution because for as long as it was remembered, flame weapons have been adjusted many times but never balanced. Almost every tweak either did nothing or morphed the game in a way that was pretty divisive.


No matter what version i played, i never really saw flamethrowers being used.
But i also barely use static defenses. And flamethrowers are very limited in their purpose and that is clearing fortifications.
They are short range weapons so there is plenty of time to move units.

And crocc shermans are getting killed by everything and even schrecks outrange them.
So i dont think that removing reload times from them would be such a big deal suddenly.


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