Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

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Zivo
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Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Zivo » 14 Apr 2019, 04:10

I tend to avoid investing too much MP into building a logistics backbone for the vanilla US units within the doctrine, and focusing more on bringing in and keeping my 101st squads topped off, and preferably on the offensive. Gathering command points quickly to unlock the highly mobile AB support units essential to the mid and late game stage. I've found that wasting MP building vanilla forward HQ's and micromanaging logistics actually decreases the strength of this doctrine, as the core 101st squads cant even use any of it.

Anyways, I would like to have an air dropped 37mm field gun. When I play Infantry, I have the logistics to keep these things on the front early game, if the crews die, I got cheap riflemen and an reinforcement point on hand. With airborne, there's no good option. The guns themselves don't have the mobility keep up, and when they die re-crewing them is expensive. I have to pull an entire 101st squad from the fight given how time consuming it is to reinforce those three guys one at a time.

Give the observation squad the ability to call them in, and allow them to be reinforced by airdrop. It probably should be tagged onto the 101st MG crew command point ability, and should be the prerequisite unlock to the mortar crew instead of having the two separate ones they currently have. I think it would make those command point choices a bit more desirable than they currently are.

The 101st Observation squad should also be given the binocular ability, so they can actually observe things. Those two just sit around doing nothing the whole game.

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 14 Apr 2019, 08:13

Spamming 101st squads itself is very shitty idea, sorry for being raw.
PE can counter this with usual scout car, 223 or WH with a Puma, just being away from range of recoiless guns.
Only being useful, when you get a normal build, with a Greyhound and other T3 units, as well as Hellcats (which is believed to be strong side of AB) or Shermans 75mm, that is a lot better countering elite infantry, than AB squads.
On the topic: yeah, binoculars and 37mm would be good to have, at least giving any flexability in early game, since you need to much investments to get AB working

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Warhawks97
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Apr 2019, 12:49

Ah, yeah, something i wanted to write about.

I think having an airdropped 76 mm AT gun is about pointless, at least when fighting behind enemie lines and urban areas. I would also prefer 37 mm M3 and 57 mm M1 guns instead of 76 mm gun which lacks mobility and which is hard to recrew soaking up 5 men. The main threat for AB that dropped behind the lines are medium tanks and light vehicles, and those are better dealed with with lighter AT.

Currently most AB players that use this 76 gun have their scouts accross the front and drop them where an attack is imminent. But i never really see them being used as a support tool for Troops behind the enemie lines.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 14 Apr 2019, 13:19

Agree, i personally find 76mm airdropped gun usefull, BUT there are few things to say about it:

General problem of the AB doc, its that how boba said, too much investment needed to get it working.

Instead of, id say, having its form of "blitzkrieg" as an early game card, you gain Late tank destroyers, Late Armor and late Support equipment.

4CP to open 76mm drop is too much.

Though im against giving AB scouts recon ability. Easy deployed and cheap sneaky unit - is no good.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

Zivo
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Zivo » 14 Apr 2019, 19:21

Spamming 101st squads itself is very shitty idea, sorry for being raw.
PE can counter this with usual scout car, 223 or WH with a Puma, just being away from range of recoiless guns.


I use one or two 101st squads to pressure the important strategic areas of the maps and use .50 cal jeeps to support them. They work well in combination since the .50 was buffed. Buying time for Armor/Engineer to get setup, then it's 82nd+Command Squad and armor.

But you are right about light vehicles, which I why I think the 37mm would be useful.

Only being useful, when you get a normal build, with a Greyhound and other T3 units, as well as Hellcats (which is believed to be strong side of AB) or Shermans 75mm, that is a lot better countering elite infantry, than AB squads.


The AB squads are the only infantry that can easily keep up with armor. They don't need halftracks, they don't need to fall back to reinforce, and they have a proper command squad. Hellcats fit well into the doctrine, as do stuarts/chaffee. But IMO, it's better to rely on teammates to micro the heavier tanks, and AB can focus strictly on escorting them with the airborne squads, staying just ahead of the armor, and using those call-ins to keep the momentum going.

Currently most AB players that use this 76 gun have their scouts accross the front and drop them where an attack is imminent. But i never really see them being used as a support tool for Troops behind the enemie lines.


The 76mm is either a gift from God or a waste of MP. It drops in with both AP/HE upgrades, which if used right can plug holes in your defenses, and actually be dropped directly to the flanks and overwatch locations where they are useful instead of being hoofed up from the base. The problem with them is they're not really good against light vehicles and are easily flanked themselves, which limits their forward deployment options. In cities, don't even bother.

4CP to open 76mm drop is too much.


IMO 4CP is fair. I usually have the guns around the time Axis starts fielding real tanks the gun is designed to counter. Having something like the 37mm or even the 57mm would make the early game a bit more palatable though.

Though im against giving AB scouts recon ability. Easy deployed and cheap sneaky unit - is no good.


Scouts are 160MP with evasive action/passive camo, AB Observers are 150MP with passive camouflage. Now that I think of it, Observers should have a small fuel cost associated with them, similar to the British officers as they are kind of a tech unit.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 14 Apr 2019, 19:56

I think not, i had sort of a better idea to make recon run cheaper therefore it could provide more often use of the ability. And it should be not CP available.

Not much people use Recon flight, due to its price or whatever, i dunno why this very usefull thing is out of the way.

If you are more less old player, back before recent patches, they used to spam those observers from Arty doc and that was not fun at all, same could happen here.

Cheap, sneaky and easier to deploy than anything else - not good.

And argument for or against 76mm was in that most of the time, instead of being on front right on with AB troops, supporting it, it is occasional something that might be in time to be dropped where pz4/stug/hetzer(!!!) already is. And that is due it being pricy in CP's.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

Zivo
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Zivo » 14 Apr 2019, 21:43

Not much people use Recon flight, due to its price or whatever, i dunno why this very usefull thing is out of the way.


Costs too much, and although it is on-call, the detection window is limited. If your timing is off and you don't find a decent target, you just wasted ammo and cooldown. Once you get the AP .50 upgrade, recce+strafe is a decent counter to axis rocket artillery and mortar halftracks. But, you are throwing a lot of ammo into something that might not work.

If you are more less old player, back before recent patches, they used to spam those observers from Arty doc and that was not fun at all, same could happen here.


Arty-spotters where part of the Arty doctrine, and could be easily micro'd given the lighter workload on the Arty player. AB Observers+Arty requires cross-doctrine coordination as the only artillery AB has is the 75mm pack guns.

Perhaps giving the Observation crew the ability to call in a cheaper recon plane, and actually behave as a Forward Air Controller might be a good compromise.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 14 Apr 2019, 22:15

Ye, actually im not sure if that is the case, but it seems Recon run "detection window" feels shorter than it was at vCoh. Aside of all things it is even harder to properly aim anything that aims not to the FOW then..

AP .50 upgrade for what? 150 additional muni? i always either forget about it, or dont have that to spare.

Good call about that cheaper recon from Observation crew. At least that would make it possible for use.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

Zivo
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Zivo » 14 Apr 2019, 22:47

Ye, actually im not sure if that is the case, but it seems Recon run "detection window" feels shorter than it was at vCoh. Aside of all things it is even harder to properly aim anything that aims not to the FOW then..


It's been a long time since I played Vanilla. Right now the recon plane is only situational. And I never really use it to recon anyways, just to move the fog of war long enough to call in a real airstrike.

This is kind of why I wish the Observation squad had binos, they aways are sitting around doing nothing as artillery rains down just out of view. I never seem to have a scout when I need them, but these guys are always around. A cheap recon plane would have a similar effect.

AP .50 upgrade for what? 150 additional muni? i always either forget about it, or dont have that to spare.


Normally, strafe is only good against infantry and light vehicles, the AP upgrade can take out pesky halftracks, walking stukas, etc.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Apr 2019, 00:08

That debate made me thinking about AB doc as a whole. Few questions and thoughts here:

1. Why AP bullets for plane are still an upgrade? Axis strafe has the 20 mm gun right away killing vehicles. The cal 50 in airplanes always used AP and API rounds as default rounds.
2. Many use recon planes as distraction for the enemie AA so that the real attack comes through though. Having forwad spotter enabled to call in cheaper recon flights over nearby areas would indeed be great.
3.And perhaps these spotters would be able to call all different types of airstrikes as well. That would make AB doc very special with air supremacy capabilties. So planes you can call globaly and planes you can call in on targets near these spotters. AB doesnt have 17 pdrs like Brits and Panthers/88 like Luft. So superior air power would be great here with constant air support to retain momentum.
4. Stuff like Mortar/HMG unlock should be in one. I was even thinking of unlocking everything or almost everything with a single unlock of these spotters. So instead unlocking the different call ins, we would just unlock this squad. And with every air strike unlocked globaly, there will also be one unlocked for these spotters.
5. With several unlocks spared by packing everything into single Spotter unlock, AB could also get a glider which provides at first a 37 mm AT gun and which can recruit more 37 mm guns, jeeps as well as 57 mm, pack howitzers etc. They can perhaps afterall get called via spotters, depending on situation (like gliders cant land in towns so well)
6. As everything spotters can call in gets unlocked via one spotter unlock, stuff like AT guns would require the motorpool build in base. However no more CP unlock for them. Supply drop would require supply yard.

Zivo
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Re: Airborne 37mm M3, and a few other changes.

Postby Zivo » 15 Apr 2019, 02:27

Airborne is unique in that their core units and supporting units are call-ins, they are not built. Vehicles are the exception. This means they're completely dependent on command point gains, while important improvements are bought through the base structures. I don't think the doctrine should move away from this as it actually works, it's just missing a few pieces that would make it feel less rigid to play. The lower left corner of the command tree is weak.

With several unlocks spared by packing everything into single Spotter unlock, AB could also get a glider which provides at first a 37 mm AT gun and which can recruit more 37 mm guns, jeeps as well as 57 mm, pack howitzers etc. They can perhaps afterall get called via spotters, depending on situation (like gliders cant land in towns so well)


AB does have the airborne HQ, which can be built for 150MP by the 101st ranger squads that really serves the same purpose, although it's not as cool.

Another airborne unit that is kind of disappointing is the 101st engineers that are called in from the Airborne HQ. They're I believe like 300 or 320MP, which is a joke because they're complete garbage. They have carbines, and I think just a minesweeper upgrade. Very soft, easy to suppress, and somewhat costly to reinforce. They really need a thomson upgrade, and some better mine choices.


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