Stupa

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Warhawks97
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Stupa

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Mar 2019, 12:14

I came across this vid here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE9xS6K0lWk

Apparently Stupa is fame and Meta again (usually hidding behind tons of AT guns and TD´s).

I had very strange experiences and apparently i am not the only one. Look at min 35:45- 35:55

A Stupa shoots very accurate at range while moving, taking out a sherman just like that. I saw many stupas doing similiar things, even against fast moving vehicles like M20 etc.


So i (again) found weird stuff. As reference i used Stuh 42 and Scott as comparision.

I just list down stats now:


Stuh 42:
Range: 85
Range brackets: 10/25/40/55
Accuracy (short to long): 0.8/0.6/0.5/0.4


Scott
Range: 70
Range brackets: 10/25/40/55
Accuracy (short to long): 1/0.8/0.75/0.5

Stupa:
Range: 80
Range brackets: 27/53/75/75
Accuracy (short to long): 0.75/0.5/0.35/0.35



So at first it looks like stupa has lowest accuracy. But thats not true. Stupa has due to its weird range brackets an accuracy of afterall 50% at 53 range which slowly drops down to 35% shortly before (75) max range of 80.

Stuh accuracy drops down to 50% at 40 range already and reaches bottom low of 40% at 55 range. So the stupa beats everything in terms of accuracy.

In terms of AoE damage the Stupa has "direct hit chance" of 2 range. in which it deals more damage than Hummel. Hummel max direct hit damage is 1080, Stupa max 1200 which makes 900 vs tanks like shermans for stupa.


The stuh loses less accuracy vs moving shermans but the stupa less vs fast mvoing vehicles like Greyhound (which explains the weird experiences i had).

Furthermore Stupa (and stuh) dont lose accuracy vs heavy cover unlike scott. I am fine with that since the loop over it, but scott is intended to do the same (or not?).


Can you pls get the stupa "fixed" finally? Its an issue as long as i can remember playing the game.

kwok
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Re: Stupa

Postby kwok » 16 Mar 2019, 14:34

I can’t remember who I talked to about this, I’m inclined to agree with you but it was noted that the stupa realistically did cripple tanks to the point of effective destruction. Convince these people and it will be “fixed”.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Stupa

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Mar 2019, 15:11

kwok wrote:I can’t remember who I talked to about this, I’m inclined to agree with you but it was noted that the stupa realistically did cripple tanks to the point of effective destruction. Convince these people and it will be “fixed”.


nah, i said that

1. Why is this 150 mm striking so much harder than Hummels 150
2. Why these weird range brackets. The accuracy values are lower than that of stuh and scott for a reason but due to the way range brackets are set its actually more accurate at most ranges.
3. Units like scott, stupa and even stubby tank IVs were originally designed to loop shells with lots of HE over defenses. Stupa and stuh have that feature, scott acts like a normal HE sherman.
4. For the stupa it seems that it doesnt matter if it hits or not, the AoE is so brutal or scatter so low that in most cases, even though a "miss" is triggered, it does hit good enough to blow vehicles and inf squads up.
5. Why does it hit light moving vehicles better than stuh?


Point 6 as an extra: The original role of units like these is to break defenses. They do everything but this. In fact they remind me (esspecially stupa) more of an Agent in Rome II empire total war where you can poisen enemie armies before the fight to weaken them by decreasing their number of men. The Stupa is kind of this. Before engagment start, it takes a unit out and retreats. Well deplyoed (like screen by simple hetzers) there is no way to catch it by anything else but arty (or SP with command car range boost).

So basically it does fail in its intention. The last time this (these) have shot against defenses or an emplacment was like years ago.


It should at least have similiar damage values as Hummel, and range brackets as a stuh and low chance to hit vehicles that move (and even more so when the stupa itself also moves).

kwok
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Re: Stupa

Postby kwok » 16 Mar 2019, 20:04

It was figree and markr I think I talked to. So talk to figree. Or bring him here to discuss. It’d be nice to hear more opinions than less

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Stupa

Postby mofetagalactica » 16 Mar 2019, 21:15

Its true what warhawks said, Stupa is currently very broken,its cheap, its a very very powerfull gun with pretty nice accuracy on moving targets (dumb), its not an easy task to destroy it with 76's (magical pz4 chassis/armor)it will also pretty much oneshot your shermans/m10's , experienced players knows that they can outrange cammo manned ATguns by just moving your mouse over territory and check for invisible "green cover" and just use attack ground tool to avoid being ambushed. Arty is almost the most cost-effective thing to destroy this thing, i wonder how much damage will these do to pershings after HP changes, maybe oneshooted or two shooted? lol


The only thing that saves you from his true full potential is the fact that some of the maps we play are stupidly bad made with too much verticality on ground.

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Viper
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Re: Stupa

Postby Viper » 16 Mar 2019, 21:47

stupa is cheap???

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Stupa

Postby mofetagalactica » 16 Mar 2019, 22:21

Viper wrote:stupa is cheap???


Sturmpanzer IV "Stupa" (Sd.Kfz. 166) - 600 MP/100 Fuel/50 Munition

For what it does, its cheap.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Stupa

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Mar 2019, 22:30

mofetagalactica wrote:t with 76's (magical pz4 chassis/armor)


It has Panther armor.


The only thing that saves you from his true full potential is the fact that some of the maps we play are stupidly bad made with too much verticality on ground.




I played at Blijwa with crimax. We had a good start and took most of the map. Our enemie had nothing but volks and an AT rifle squad. Then Stupa came it it destroyed the entire army from crimax. My ambushed jacks also failed to get a shot on it. So we were bleeding out. With vet 2 and commander this thing goes crazy. So open maps is a no-go for now... bloody gulch, bliwja etc.



Viper wrote:stupa is cheap???


yes. 600 MP is less than the cheapest panther for 660 MP and those already get spammed from time to time, even some infantry squads cost more. I am not afraid of panthers when i have fireflies and jacksons or comets. A Panther doesnt kill inf that fast in a shot and needs two shots to kill a tank usually.

It also needs just minimal support, usually not more than volks as meatshields and AT rifle squad or something.

100 fuel is also not much. A tank IV H costs already 80 fuel.
50 ammo? Most tanks pay 50 to 60 ammo to upgrade AP and HE and then each time further 50 for AP or 25-35 for HE. Stupa doesnt need to change ammo.
A sherman HE costs 90 ammo to get its HE shells. In so far stupa is requires less ammo than any other tank.


Upkeep? The Stupa costs as much upkeep than a Tank IV F2/H/J (only roughly 0.2 upkeep more per min) and even less fuel upkeep than an F2. Thats by far les than a Tiger but generally the Stupa is the much bigger threat. By far the greater one. Actually, when you go for an attack with regular units (eg churchills, infantry, vehicles, shermans etc) you cant avoid losing a unit or more.

So yes, its damn cheap considering that each shot kills a tank (400+MP) or inf unit (250-500+MP) in a shot basically every time. Also cover doesnt really help much as it doesnt really suffer from it. Accuracy doesnt matter due to low scatter in relation to AoE blast.

The only downside is its 600 HP health pool. But honestly, i could live with 800-1000 HP stupa and Panther armor if i could get a chance to shoot at it at least. It could approach 76 guns quite easily with that armor and HP, even with less range.


So far i only saw SP being a real threat when it comes to head on attacks on this thing.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Stupa

Postby mofetagalactica » 17 Mar 2019, 01:37

All vehicles using PZIV chasis:
Möbelwagen
Wirbelwind
Ostwind
Sturmpanzer Brummbär
Sturmgeschütz IV
Jagdpanzer IV

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Viper
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Re: Stupa

Postby Viper » 17 Mar 2019, 09:10

mofetagalactica wrote:
Viper wrote:stupa is cheap???


Sturmpanzer IV "Stupa" (Sd.Kfz. 166) - 600 MP/100 Fuel/50 Munition

For what it does, its cheap.

and 6 command point.

stupa is not cheap and is not op.
and i saw it die with 1 shot many times.
bazookas are very effective against it too.
maybe it should not be in defensive doctrine.
can be moved to another doctrine.
but nerf it? no. i dont agree.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Stupa

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Mar 2019, 11:48

mofetagalactica wrote:All vehicles using PZIV chasis:
Möbelwagen
Wirbelwind
Ostwind
Sturmpanzer Brummbär
Sturmgeschütz IV
Jagdpanzer IV


chassis doesnt matter. The Stupa had 100 mm armor slightly slopped.

In game we give target tables based on their realistic armor values.



Viper wrote:and 6 command point.


Panzer IV H mass prod in Bk doc costs 5 CP, Panthers 6-7 CP.... Rangers 4 CP, All commando unlocks also more than 6... 6 CP is nothing for such a unit

Its cheaper than a Panther in all aspects, fuel, MP, ammo (if you upgrade panther you pay at least 50 ammo just for upgrades, even more for D and A), upkeep. Also requires less tec. Stupa doesnt even need the last building. Panthers require 300 MP (last building) and 135 extra fuel for the last building and its upgrade.

stupa is not cheap and is not op.


Cheap is relativ.... Panthers, Tigers cost more, Tank IV H almost as much. And Stupa is far more dangerous than any of them, or do you think Tank IV H is as frightened as a Stupa?

And as said, 300 MP and 135 fuel less tec required.

and i saw it die with 1 shot many times.

I saw every unit in game die by a single shot and that not just once. This is not an argument. Players foolishness also plays a role.
Thing is you have to get close enough to shoot at it which is already a though job.


bazookas are very effective against it too.


GL with your 45 range bazookas against a 80 range unit with sniper 150 mm HE shots. Only fools run into zook ambushes that blindly and lack reconassaince.

maybe it should not be in defensive doctrine.

ofc not.


can be moved to another doctrine.

technically yes, but it doesnt solve the actual issue.


but nerf it? no. i dont agree.


Its cheaper than a Panther in all aspects, fuel, MP, ammo (if you upgrade panther you pay at least 50 ammo just for upgrades, even more for D and A), upkeep. Also requires less tec.

But its better than Panthers or Tigers. Its basically a Panther tank (same armor values) with more range (80 instead of 65) and vastly more damage (panther doesnt oneshot shermans always and actually never 76 shermans). Stupa oneshots pretty much everything or leaves the target as a wreck with crit damages etc.

So how is it possible that a unit requires less tec, less cost to build and the same ammount of CP while being vastly better at the same time. :roll:
Any argument?




I would suggest the following things:


Stuh 42:

Gun Range: 60 (from 85)
Unit Cost: 400/50 (from 480/60)
Unit requirments: BK doc, Faster tank IV production (currently requires Battlegroup call in), no unit limit.
Unit abilties: All Stug III abilities (smoke drop, nearby inf boost, stationary mode that boosting range by +5 and faster reload), hull down with vet2 and perhaps also suppressive fire abiltiy. Perhaps add single HEAT (Hollow charge round HL/B that can deal severe damage (50 range and upgrade required, 90-100 mm armor pen)
Unit Health: 636 (from 580)

Also slightly better accuracy (atm 40% max range, could be as high as 50 to 60 due to range drop) and accuracy boost vs emplacmants and/or no accuracy penalty from cover as it loops shells over. Also very good against garrisoned units. Bad accuracy vs moving vehicles and vehicles in general.


Stupa:

at first fix range brackets to match with stuh 42 and put it as reward unit for stuh in BK doc.

Gun Range: 60 (from 80)
Unit Cost: 600/50/100 (from 600/50/100)
Unit requirments: BK doc, Tank IV mass production unlock.
Unit abilties: Smoke drop (perhaps), nearby inf boost ability like stug III, suppressive fire, HEAT (Hollow charge round lgr.39 HI/A, as upgrade required, 45-50 range but huge damage)
Unit Health: 800 (from 600)

The gun damage would be roughly the same as Hummel.
Also slightly better accuracy (atm 35% max range, could be as high as 50% due to range drop) and accuracy boost vs emplacmants and/or no accuracy penalty from cover as it loops shells over. Also very good against garrisoned units. Bad accuracy vs moving vehicles and vehicles in general.


That way this unit(s) would become a little bit less brain dead, less campy and more interessing to play and more skill/abilties required to use them effectively rather than just being sitting ducks.



Scott:

Gun range: 60 (from 70)
Unit requirments: Remove unit limit
Unit abilties: smoke drop/shot for more effective infantry support, Tank commander arty strike (already the case).

No accuracy penalties vs units in cover, less accuracy penalty duing move (gyro stabilizer).
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 17 Mar 2019, 12:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Viper
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Re: Stupa

Postby Viper » 17 Mar 2019, 12:10

the stupa is limited to 1 and the gun hits hard. but the reload is very long. so it doesn't hit you too often.
you are already upset that stupa kills a 300mp and 30 fuel sherman with 1 shot in the video? this is very ok.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Stupa

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Mar 2019, 12:24

Viper wrote:the stupa is limited to 1 and the gun hits hard. but the reload is very long. so it doesn't hit you too often.


Reload doesnt matter. A Panther needs two, sometimes 3 shots to kill a sherman which at the end is the same ammount of time required (if not more) to kill and needs much longer to kill inf squads.
Also who cares about reload. All you have to do is to sit between Jagdpanzer IV and Hetzers and wait. So reload is important when the enemie can shoot at you but thats not the case so it doesnt matter.

you are already upset that stupa kills a 300mp and 30 fuel sherman with 1 shot in the video? this is very ok.


350 MP in armor doc and over 400 for all others, darling. Pls be at least correct here. Units like Comets, Jacks, e8 etc also die oneshot so even 500 MP tanks die just like that. Even chaffes cost already 370-400 MP.
And inf squads, even when costing 700 like SAS, get sniped from huge range and die oneshot. Or you snipe a bunch of targets (like a tank being repaired)

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Viper
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Re: Stupa

Postby Viper » 17 Mar 2019, 12:30

reload doesn't matter :?: :?: :?:
no. it does. thats why the heavy tanks with big guns had more range on some previous patch. when their reload time was increased.

you suggest to make stupa, stuh and scott range only 60. you should know this suggestion is impossible. as long as the reload stays the same.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Stupa

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Mar 2019, 12:57

Viper wrote:reload doesn't matter :?: :?: :?:
no. it does. thats why the heavy tanks with big guns had more range on some previous patch. when their reload time was increased.



As i said, when tank fight vs tanks it does matter. But stupa doesnt do so. It keeps outside of the range from enemie guns and retreats back behind friendly units, usually jagdpanzers (like friendly hetzers or nashorns). So its less important than for tanks that fight a real tank combat where every milli second matters.

But this tank is not designed to make tank vs tank combat but rather deal massive blows with a single shot.


heavy tanks with big guns had more range on some previous patch. when their reload time was increased.


This in particular:
KT? Costs twice as much, has less range than stupa afterall and its HE shells have even less than 60 range and are far less deadly to inf. It also costs more CP and requires additional tec
Nashorn? Costs as much as stupa, cant do shit vs inf and dies to 37 mm AT guns and has less basic range than stupa and no HE at all.
Jagdpanther? Less basic range, no HE, costs a lot more and isnt good vs inf, at least doesnt shoot Infantry squads from 80 range in one shot.
Panther/Tiger etc? They have 65 range which is 5 more than sherman has. They cost a lot more, cost more upkeep, tiger has even weaker armor and both require more tec for buildings etc. They also pay for HE shots per shot and they dont have 80 range for HE (lalso less than 60 range) and doesnt insta whipe inf squads every time.

Stupa is a long range anti everything unit that costs as much as a nashorn. I dont think that Nashorn is even close to stupas capabilties.


you suggest to make stupa, stuh and scott range only 60. you should know this suggestion is impossible. as long as the reload stays the same.



"only"? thats most basic range in game. Why is it impossible? If you use a tank IV that needs 4 shots to destroy an emplacment and thus requires 24 seconds (4x6) or a single 150 mm shot that requires 20 sec reload (or 15 for stuh) whats the matter here?

Also stubby tank IV´s role is identical to those of stuh and stupa and Tank IV stubby has less than 60 range with HE.



have you even considered what i suggested? I guess you didnt.


800 HP makes you resistant to 76 mm oneshots whos max damage from ambush is 750 damage. That paired with panther armor should make you quite resistant to most weapons.

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Redgaarden
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Re: Stupa

Postby Redgaarden » 17 Mar 2019, 18:43

I think the problem is that you can't dodge the shots. They just appear instantly. in Coh 2 brummbar has a deadly cannon that lowers the health of infantry to one shot status, and deals some damage to vehicles. But the shell is slow moving and not hard to dodge for moving vehicles (Infantry will be clipped)

I think the problem with the Stupa is its instant shells that are undodgeable and insane dmg.
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