Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

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Warhawks97
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Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Mar 2019, 13:43

I kept thinking about the Tigers being made cheaper to "make them earlier avaialble" which is in my opinion afterall BS since a 100 MP cost difference makes the Tiger comming roughly 20 seconds earlier to the battlefield assuming a 300 MP income per min.

I am playing mostly 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4 games or playing on bigger maps (3 vs 3 on 4 vs 4 maps etc) and my experience tells me that units that cost as much as a Panther is always present after 20-30 mins of playing with no sides having got the upper hand as long as two players have the capabilties to build them.

So right now, since Tiger cost change makes them more or less acting as a "reward" unit to Panthers where you trade capabilties just that they arent replacing each other. I am afraid to see not just many panthers, but also a mix of Tigers/Panthers and perhaps even a TD spam (eg hetzer) from TH doc. So the tank forces reaches from HP intense to armor intense to sneaky intense capabilties.


Bottom line: I kept thinking how to solve the issue with the Tigers becoming perhaps too cheap and how to make them earlier available without simply changing cost.


So Whats the actual Problem with Tigers coming too late to be effective:


1. CP cost. Dropping build cost by 100 MP doesnt change much about the late availablity. We see them 20 seconds earlier now, congrats. But gathering 2 CP in the early stages with perhaps standoff situation can take minutes. Thus i am (still) saying that Tiger should cost max 3 CP in total.
2. Tec system of WH. The WH is the most unflexible Tec system among all factions, closely followed by US. Most verstaile is PE. You have to get all tecs and buildings first. WH is always Building->Upgrade->Building->Upgrade-> Building->Upgrade->Building. And each upgrade takes longer as to get 100 MP. So the biggest delay for tigers is not its build cost, but the sheer tec cost and time and build time of buildings.




Solving the Problem: Re-think the WH Tec- und Unlock Sytsem.

I have made experiments with that two years ago already with multiple buildings buildable at each tec step while these unlocked just additional units and stuff.
I now also got an idea for Tank IV´s. A Unique one.


Changes on tec system:

1. "Escalate to Skirmish Phase": Allows to build the "Krieg Barracks" and "Panzer Factory". There you can at first build only Stubby Tank IV´s (E and f1 type)

2. "Escalate to assault Phase": Allows the production of Stugs and Tank IV F2. Note: BK and Terror would start of with Tank IV F2 as long barreld Tank IV. It also enables the Heavy Tank Factory for 200 MP build cost. There you can build the Tiger early version for 925 or 950 MP and 170 fuel.
(This stage should also be required to purchase STG´s)


2. "Escalate to Endsieg Phase": Replaces all Tank IV F2 models with H and J (BK doc can get both, Terror choose in reward menu). All F2 on the field remain F2, just the production changes.
This Phase also unlocks the Tiger Late version to the Heavy Tank factory for the same cost as normal Tiger.
It also unlocks a Heavy Panzer Factory Unlock that costs 100 or 200 MP and 75 fuel which enables the production of Panthers, KT´s etc.
All Volksgrenadiers have Panzerfaust at default and Schrecks can be given to regular combat units (grens, storms etc).


Changes on the unlock System:
Tigers and Panthers seperated. Panzer IV as central unlock for 1 CP only (bc you will get only the F2 at first). To its left is a direct unlock to Panther which costs further 3 or 4 CP. On the other side is the Tiger for 2 more CP followed by KT for 3 or 4 more CP.


This combined means that the Tiger can be unlocked and build even before you can get the tank IV H and J version. In Total the player would spare 275 MP and 100 fuel (!!) in total and a lot of time in upgrade time before he can actually build his first Tiger. And since time is spared he doesnt have to build as many "gap filler" units untill the Tiger arrives. So even if the tiger gets back to 900 MP and more, he spares tons of time and fuel but also MP
That should make the Tiger a real mid game tank and a lot more effective than a simple 100 Mp cost drop change which doesnt really makes the tank comming sooner and only changes its late game cost/efficiency ratio.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby winterflaw » 01 Mar 2019, 14:48

I would like to throw something in here - I would like to propose KT becomes a buildable tank.

In the war, Tiger production was phased out from Aug 1944.

The last year of the war, Germany made King Tigers and it made Panthers.

It may be the problem we have with Tigers becoming obsolete in the game is in fact reflecting that they become obsolete in the war, and the game is not following what actually happened in the war, which is the Germans built KTs instead.

Late war is Sherman Fireflys vs King Tigers and Panthers - but BKM isn't doing this, and I see in fact we now have this discussion about Tigers being no good in the end game. Perhaps the solution is in part to follow the historical events, and introduce the KT.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Mar 2019, 17:49

Kt is a producable tank :D

And what you said is what I think too. That's why I made this post

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby winterflaw » 01 Mar 2019, 18:05

Warhawks97 wrote:Kt is a producable tank :D


Well I'm stupid!

But where? I'm pretty sure I've only seen it as an off-map call in, one unit only.

I don't think I've seen it buildable from a building.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby MarKr » 01 Mar 2019, 18:19

Wehrmacht, Terror doctrine, heavy tank factory. In reward menu you can choose between KT with Henschel or Porsche turret ;)
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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby winterflaw » 01 Mar 2019, 19:39

I was just about to play a bit to look for it, so good timing :-)

So, this was not what I (originally) intended.

Yes, you can build it - but you can build one.

I was thinking many. Normal tank.

However, on reflection and having played a bit, given how rare the KT was, having a unit limit of one is reasonable, and in proportion to the supply of Shermans (of all kinds).

What's funny and potentially problematic here is we're trying to emulate in a meaningful way the balances of WW2, with a totally unreal distance system, in tiny combat zones, *and* still have a reasonable and balanced game.

If someone proposed that to me before I'd seen it done, I'd say they were chasing the impossible! :-)

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby mofetagalactica » 05 Mar 2019, 15:09

Something i had in mind long time ago and a lot of the early balance problems could get fixed by changing the price of unit costs and move it to upkeep costs, while making the tech up more flexible for factions like WH and CW, the examples you gave could be fun for WH, as for CW i would like something like rifle section unlocked without leutenant and second HQ buildable without needing leutenant and having tetrach and damlers and 6p (added in this HQ) unlocked after leutenant, i would also propose to make the recce later available after captain (the habilities of such unit still makes him viable of building it later in-game) we could also do something like making the recce a comand unit for tanks by having it in the reward option as a replacement for cromwell command tank.

Coming back to the first subject, i would also like to propose more ideas about literally changing upside down the cost and upkeep of units (Mostly about MP), since i believe this would make the game way more balanced along all phases, "limiting" (by really increasing upkeep costs) and lowering the price of all units by a 35% - 40% on MP and 15% on Fuel, maybe this would make comebacks up and go more common since you wouldnt really have a huge upercutt of advantage when having more than the double of units and terrain. You would be able to build those special units you love way easier but the upkeep cost will "limit" you to get better suport for such units, and if you're losing hard you will be able to think about a counter strategy with the resources you have stored since you wouldnt have to face with upkeep problems.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Mar 2019, 16:42

mofetagalactica wrote:Something i had in mind long time ago and a lot of the early balance problems could get fixed by changing the price of unit costs and move it to upkeep costs, while making the tech up more flexible for factions like WH and CW, the examples you gave could be fun for WH, as for CW i would like something like rifle section unlocked without leutenant and second HQ buildable without needing leutenant and having tetrach and damlers and 6p (added in this HQ) unlocked after leutenant, i would also propose to make the recce later available after captain (the habilities of such unit still makes him viable of building it later in-game) we could also do something like making the recce a comand unit for tanks by having it in the reward option as a replacement for cromwell command tank.


Me, too. Vcoh allowed a lot more flexibility in this regard.
i dont really know why BK is so bounded to a very straight tec up design where you go from one stage with specific units to the other.
Perhaps its bc devs might think that allowing rushing up for tanks makes vehicles obsolete. I view i cant share since i have vehicles on the field long into late games. And if one rushes for tanks he might loses mid game, thus res and controle and gets beaten up by cheap AT guns.
Adding flexibility would make the game a lot more interesting and the balance wouldnt have to be made "game stage by game stage" and creating mirror factions. It would be all up to the players ability not to "overrush" for something or to "overproduce" stuff at the wrong stage.


Anyway. I made this about wehrmacht first bc i want to fix the Tiger issue which seem to become an Alternative to an alternative to an alternative to an alternative of an alternative rather than being something unique in its own way.

For example i would like to be able to build a supply yard earlier instead having it first when being almost fully tiered up after 15-20 mins. Esspecially for players that play with infantry most of the part. I see dozens of AB/Inf players that believe that Supply yard is just there for unlocking stuff. And since they dont go beyond greyhounds an inf and AT guns they never get any. Its something that makes me angry almost every second game.


Or another idea i had is why WSC is just a "Must have" same as for PE the infantry support center is such a must have.
It shouldnt be a must have to reach max tier and instead should only to be required to get the upgrades and to unlock certain upgrades.

E.G. the PE infantry support center should be required to have access to lmg42 and anti tank grenades and certain infantry but not to get access to tanks and logistic company upgrade.

The WSC should be required to unlock the upgrades in there and to gain access to top mounted cal 50 upgrades and stuff like Rifle grenades but again not to gain access to vehicles at all.


And for the brits, as you described already.



Coming back to the first subject, i would also like to propose more ideas about literally changing upside down the cost and upkeep of units (Mostly about MP), since i believe this would make the game way more balanced along all phases, "limiting" (by really increasing upkeep costs) and lowering the price of all units by a 35% - 40% on MP and 15% on Fuel, maybe this would make comebacks up and go more common since you wouldnt really have a huge upercutt of advantage when having more than the double of units and terrain. You would be able to build those special units you love way easier but the upkeep cost will "limit" you to get better suport for such units, and if you're losing hard you will be able to think about a counter strategy with the resources you have stored since you wouldnt have to face with upkeep problems.




yeah, me too. At least the core units. Elites such a certain tanks could be expensive to afford and to maintain since they can literally act as a lone unit army like a KT which in most cases can only be killed by off map supports or incredible numerical advantage and luck.



I would love to see such changes esspecially to certain brits units as well as WH.
Trading build cost for upkeep would make the game generally faster (players will risk more since they know they can replace a bit quicker), less depending on lucky game changing shots and hits (eg arty shell lands a top of a panther and blows it up, thus losing the game, or falls one inch too short, panther stays alive and becomes a game changer... or inf squad dies completely to lucky arty or HE shot or not).

In particular units like Panthers (even Jagdpanther), WH Grenadiers, CW infantry and comet tanks should cost less build cost in return for a bit more upkeep. Long 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 games usually end up in silly "elite units stockpiling" and those who got more at the end wins. And thats not seldomly Panthers and jagdpanthers which cost a lot to build but in the long run, if you dont go for an attack and just sit there and repair arty damage, you can get quite many of them+ considerable MP reserves to replace losses rather quickly later on.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby mofetagalactica » 05 Mar 2019, 17:56

Warhawks97 wrote:yeah, me too. At least the core units. Elites such a certain tanks could be expensive to afford and to maintain since they can literally act as a lone unit army like a KT which in most cases can only be killed by off map supports or incredible numerical advantage and luck.


True, we can always make (mostly Elite call ins) like paratroopers to mantain the MP expensiveness on "building" them to avoid constant replacement of zombiefallschs or just rework some of these elites and make just 1 call-in paratroop for luft and airbone, and the other special infantry of these docs being buildable in base, like gill's, airbone engineers,HQ airbone troops, etc. The idea behind this would be something like, everytime you get closer to the enemy base they will reinforce units or build new ones faster ,easier or could change is strategy way more fast, this would end up helping the games to be more active on the middle parts of the maps and not insta losing everythime you lose half army, emplacements could also suck up more upkeep.

These changes would also help a lot on balancing the gamer way easier, it would be less click to kill and win (like for example spamming those rocket jeeps from usa or hotchkissing to oblivion), since yes you will kill units, you will be able to advance a little, but it won't be an instant win, like it usually happens when someone loss half army in the current game. Peopple just leave the game once they feel like they're losing a little (mostly as allies) i want something to encourage them to have more advantage , options and tactics when they're losing (same for the enemy when they get surprised by enemy change of tactics and start to lose lots of terrain)

I think it would also help to encourage teamplay to see wich units everyone should get to cover others weaknesses, yes you will be able to replace your units easier but you wouldnt be able to spam them cause they will suck up your upkeep, like for example you will be able to get something in your deck like - Tiger, 1 volk squad, mortar,spoter and with these units in play you will gain something like 100mp per minute or less (this avoids spamming) and if you lose these units youll income will increase by a lot being able to reeplace these units or change tactics.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Mar 2019, 18:21

When i did my own testing version, i inculded all these thoughts you just mentioned.
It could already be a whole new topic.

High build cost and low ukpeep generally means that its almost impossible to come back from the scratch. And often its not even skill making a difference, but a lucky hit or shot or piss poor rocket spam which might blast a unit away and just like that 400 or more MP gone due to luck.

Any kind of comeback is very hard and one mistake almost unforgivable. Thats esspecially the case for Brits and PE.

Meanwhile not losing a unit (even though often just by luck with one men staying alive or a tank with 3 critical damages not dying) and you got almost half the road to victory bc from now on you can build up massive reserves (in units as well as MP) due to low upkeep and map controle.


In my testing version i set a simple rules for myself:
1. Basic inf not exceeding 330- 350 MP. That inculdes grens and stuff (but they also act less elite unit like)
2. Elite inf not above 400 MP, max is 450 for certain air dropped units.
3. Core tanks not exceeding 650 MP and 125 fuel. EG Panthers. Most other core tanks were arround 400-500 MP and max 75 fuel.
4. Support weapons belong to the core of every army. Thus Mortars and HMG´s never exceeded 300 MP. Thus you could always at least rebuild a core army of a basic inf squad, mortar and hmg without paying thousands of MP just to be whiped out right away again by a silly cheap arty strike from an arty unit cheaper than your stupid HMG.
5. That means arty units were always more expensive than core units (basic inf, HMG, mortar, AT gun) in order to maintain balance and not to let arty always become the cost effective weapon of choice.
7. And the lower costs get re-balanced by upkeep (though not too much for the "basic needs"), esspecially tanks and arty.
8. Elites still remained and quite high cost and upkeep so they wouldnt dominate everything else. Currently its all about Elites and Arty.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 05 Mar 2019, 18:48

Adjusting cost and upkeep so that upkeep is a bigger factor than cost would mean upkeep would first have to be changed so it actually matches a pattern. Current upkeep on some units make no sense, like an E8 sherman having the same upkeep as a Jackson. Or the Jagdpanther super low upkeep...

Also lots of emplacements take up only 3 MP upkeep or so because of how it's only taking the 'crew' into account. So I don't know how I would make that work with a new cost rebalance.

My own problem with adjusting the cost to upkeep is that it's going to take a lot of work just to get every unit in the right place for their costs. I don't know if there's enough patience for any person to go through each unit and adjust their costs to fit a new system and keep revising it till it's in the right place. If it was going to be like that, I would rather see just the upkeep changed and you get more MP income getting certain MP upgrades or whatever. It's kind of how it worked in Dawn Of War if anyone played that; units weren't tied to upkeep but your requisition increased on certain point captures and requisition upgrades. It wouldn't need too much work to get MP income increases late game and balance off that (and it's already the case with some doctrines abilities like MP blitz and so). So MP income to unit upkeep would be my own thing.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Mar 2019, 19:33

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Adjusting cost and upkeep so that upkeep is a bigger factor than cost would mean upkeep would first have to be changed so it actually matches a pattern. Current upkeep on some units make no sense, like an E8 sherman having the same upkeep as a Jackson. Or the Jagdpanther super low upkeep...

Also lots of emplacements take up only 3 MP upkeep or so because of how it's only taking the 'crew' into account. So I don't know how I would make that work with a new cost rebalance.

My own problem with adjusting the cost to upkeep is that it's going to take a lot of work just to get every unit in the right place for their costs. I don't know if there's enough patience for any person to go through each unit and adjust their costs to fit a new system and keep revising it till it's in the right place. If it was going to be like that, I would rather see just the upkeep changed and you get more MP income getting certain MP upgrades or whatever. It's kind of how it worked in Dawn Of War if anyone played that; units weren't tied to upkeep but your requisition increased on certain point captures and requisition upgrades. It wouldn't need too much work to get MP income increases late game and balance off that (and it's already the case with some doctrines abilities like MP blitz and so). So MP income to unit upkeep would be my own thing.



well, ok, but you wont change the overall situation bc in relation all keeps the same. All you will achieve is that in late game more units get thrown into the field. But afterall we will keep seeing stockpiles of elite units (bc you dont lose them as fast while having super low upkeep) and lucky random hits (like a nicley landing artillery shell/missile) esspecially during mid games.


Iirc such simple MP boosters are in spearhead mod and i dont really like it. You get rich when you have units bc you make upkeep literally obsolete or bypass it and you get super rich when fielding no units at all. Thus players which do nothing else than rushing KT or Panther after Panther will do so even quicker bc they have just this one unit with low upkeep+ the MP booster upgrade.



I know its a lot of work, i went through it. But not as much as it might seems to be at the first look. Also its not that all need to changed entirely. If there is an inf squad with like 10 upkeep like PE or US there is no increase needed.
But Grens that need over 400 MP to be build but then just like 7 upkeep or less is something that could be changed a bit. Same as Jagdpanthers with 900 MP build but only 9 MP upkeep. Or Panthers with 150 fuel cost but two of them drain just 5 fuel compared to for example some sherman types that drain alone almost 5 fuel.


Another thing is that vehicles are costing no fuel at all in upkeep. Two of them could drain at least 1 fuel or so.



Anyway, that falls all out of topic a bit.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 05 Mar 2019, 20:46

It's a good idea worth a try. But it's just where would it be put on the BK Dev's timeline when they are already committed to doc-reworks. I would first want the upkeeps to be adjusted so they actually have a pattern of sorts because as you said; some vehicles don't cost fuel upkeep at all to maintain.

On the topic itself: It should be mentioned that the current P4 F2 is somewhat under-performing because the gun is doing less damage than the other P4 guns. Something I should have mentioned in the first beta patch because it was bugging me for so long and then I forgot about it.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Mar 2019, 12:28

MenciusMoldbug wrote:
On the topic itself: It should be mentioned that the current P4 F2 is somewhat under-performing because the gun is doing less damage than the other P4 guns. Something I should have mentioned in the first beta patch because it was bugging me for so long and then I forgot about it.


Thats true. It once got fixed with gun standardisation (Stug for example suffered the same way) but probably accidentially reverted by a wrong saving act.
But also its armor is largely overperforming like literally all of the Tank IV´s. And thats where i also try to aim at. In mid stage the players would have access to Tank IV´s with 50 mm armor very quickly (within the first few mins of playing as the tank factory would not require the second HQ upgrade) and for just 1 CP and second HQ upgrade access to the Long barrled F2 version which still possess 50 mm of armor. At that stage he can can decide to either build a heavy tank factory for 200 MP and rush for the first Tigers or to upgrade the HQ a third time to replace his F2 with H/J versions in its production line.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby kwok » 06 Mar 2019, 18:44

Just acknowledging that I read through this and also confirming mencius' mention that it needs to be considered with the general timeline of doc reworks.

I also still owe an explanation on the other 5.1.7 patch thread. It's saved in drafts, just never finished and got busy.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby mofetagalactica » 08 Mar 2019, 18:17

kwok wrote:Just acknowledging that I read through this and also confirming mencius' mention that it needs to be considered with the general timeline of doc reworks.

I also still owe an explanation on the other 5.1.7 patch thread. It's saved in drafts, just never finished and got busy.


I don't think that big reworks are going to work or solve any problems, WH and CW could be fixed by just giving them more flexible starts and choices, i don't think your rework is gonna change anything about tiger/panther or docs problems, i still think the only way to fix this is about moving prices to upkeep and adding more start flexibility. But yeah i do understand that you went this way and its the timeline of what you're working now.
Last edited by mofetagalactica on 09 Mar 2019, 02:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby kwok » 08 Mar 2019, 21:18

I agree, ESPECIALLY with CW. But that’s still just a really big topic and risk to even go through with since a lot people are just ingrained in their formulas.
But glad you feel the same, just adds more reason to do it.

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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Mar 2019, 10:56

kwok wrote:I agree, ESPECIALLY with CW. But that’s still just a really big topic and risk to even go through with since a lot people are just ingrained in their formulas.
But glad you feel the same, just adds more reason to do it.



If you ask me, these formulars also came from formular tecing systems that left literally no choice but to enter one step after the other. You always have to get all stuff in the barracks before having every access to any tank, or having all AT guns unlocked before having ever access to Tank IV F and E variants etc.

Like you captured fuel points and could rush up or tanks? *Denied*.... go step after step.



Wehrmacht:
Things how to change that could be that not all buildings are required to get buildings for max tier units. Like Wehrmacht could perhaps build the Tank Factory without having the Kriegs Barracks.
Here the HQ upgrades could unlock certain buildings and units/upgrades/abilties.

Perhaps it could be possible that the HQ upgrades would not require any building at all and you could go through them quick. But not having early buildings would also mean not to have any units but pios avaialble.


Also imaginable would be swapping units inside buildings arround. For example the Current Tank factory was called "Sturmwaffenkammer" (Assault armory). This building would contain all heavy infantry support stuff like stugs, stubby tank IV´s and rocket artillery. The building would be available with the first HQ upgrade and would theoretichally not require anything but the HQ upgrades. But third HQ upgrade would be required to get stugs and artillery while the initial building provides access to stubby tank IV´s.
The current Krieg Barracks would provide access to light vehicles and AT guns. The third upgrade however would be also required to get 50 mm Puma and 75 mm AT gun as well as AT squad with schrecks. That means that stubby Tank IV´s would require less HQ upgrades than the 75 mm AT gun but are placed in different buildings.
The Heavy Tank Factory would just be a a Tank Factory available at after second HQ upgrade. But only Tank IV f2 would be avaialble as well as early Tigers. The last HQ upgrade replaces the F2 with H/J versions, adds Tiger late version and unlocks a Tank Factory upgrade that enables to get Panthers, KT etc. Panthers would be cheaper but more costly to maintain (upkeep).


So its less a streamlined tec step by tec step but instead a flexible upgrade design that leaves players a lot more choices to go for preferences (why upgrading all inf stuff when he prefers tanks). Like a player could get Tank IV´s without ever unlocking the AT squad in the first building when he prefers stugs or whatever.

It would be some sort of "cross over unlocks". In theory you can unlock everything before having access to more or less basic inf when you skip the inf, or you can go for a inf/Tank mix without real support stuff, schreck squads but no AT guns or the other way arround and so on.


CW:
CW could perhaps be different as well. Like you can get all Trucks right away from the first one but only very basic stuff avaialble here untill each truck as unlocked its command unit. The first would provide access inf section, Boys and sappers and bren carrier but only lieutnant fully unlocks everything else in there (eg recce etc). The second allows access to idk... 57 mm AT, transport truck and bofors guns but only the captain unlocks the remaining stuff. The last one cromwell/sherman and MK VI churchill but command tank the better tanks (assuming the standard MK VII chrurchills will become a normal tank as well).

So here you get the "buildings" but these require their special command units to provide access to everything in there.


US
US could have its supply yard a lot more individual. Thus inf focused players wouldnt have to tec up that much. Many WH and PE players dont get more than two buildings for a long time untill they unlocked the Panthers. US players are forced to get the tec line though. So supply yard could be build right after barracks but perhaps not all unlocks avaialble right away.

The WSC would be completely independent and would only provide access to weapons (cal 50 upgrades and bazookas for rangers), units (Zooka AT squad) and upgrades (those in there ofc). But here the Tank depot would require the Motorpool and its upgrade (unlike WH that could rush for the assault armory or third building) bc else shermans could be rushed way too fast and meet stubby tank IV´s.


The supply yard would also perhaps receive more upgrades besides only upkeep reducing stuff.
I thought about "increased weapon supply". One Airborne version or basically moving this one from WSC to supply yard to reduce weapon upgrade prices.
The Inf doc would have cheaper weapon supply not as CP unlock but instead like AB doc as an upgrade placed in the supply yard instead WSC. Why supply yard instead wsc? BC it does not unlock something, it just drops the cost which usually is linked with increased production value and better supply.
Also something called "increased spare part supply". That unlocks self repair abilties for US tanks and vehicles. It cant be used during combat and last 45 seconds (but gets disrupted when you move/shoot/get hit) and heals roughly half or 3/4 of the vehicles HP, depending how often it gets disrupted. Cost would be roughly 25 ammo.

The supply yard would thus play a key role for US gameplay and would not come so extremley late when it barely makes up for its cost. It doesnt need to be build like when someone prefers to rush vehicles or tank first but players wouldnt be forced to get so far in order to make some use of it. Since its a building that boosts you over time, its just dump to have access to it when the most cruical part of the game has often already ended.
Its also vital for all massproduction and impoved supply stuff.


PE:
PE is already very flexible. But the inf support center should only be required to get access to heavy assault grens, AT squads, AT Grenades and the upgrades in this building. So a player can rush for tanks but with poor inf support (only basic grens, bad repairs etc).






All these tec up flexibility would break literally all formuals bc you wouldnt ever now when comes what. Right now things are very predictable bc after a few games and replay analyses you know when which faction has access to what when having x ammounts of res points. And that gets boring. The more units can be unlocked early and by more or less removing the "tier system", the more options can be used, esspecially during vital early/mid stages. And units like stubby tank Iv and stuart wouldnt suffer so badly anymore as they do now. Bc at the time they are available there is already tons of easy counters unlocked, not matter if you rush for it.

kwok
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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby kwok » 09 Mar 2019, 20:22

Not saying the ideas are bad, but one thing to consider is the rock paper scissor effect you’d create by setting up that system. One good thing about formulaic build orders is it’s easier to control unit availability to reduce Rock Paper Scissors effects. That’s why some of the best match ups are USA vs WM, both are slightly linear that they can somewhat have a synchronized progression to late game. On the flip side you get the almost extremes for the other factions. PE is toooo flexible that it dictates a Rock Paper Scissors game as seen in past complaints whereas British is too linear where it literally only has one build order for every game every doctrine. Just something to think about, factor it into your suggestions

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Warhawks97
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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Mar 2019, 23:35

kwok wrote:Not saying the ideas are bad, but one thing to consider is the rock paper scissor effect you’d create by setting up that system. One good thing about formulaic build orders is it’s easier to control unit availability to reduce Rock Paper Scissors effects. That’s why some of the best match ups are USA vs WM, both are slightly linear that they can somewhat have a synchronized progression to late game. On the flip side you get the almost extremes for the other factions. PE is toooo flexible that it dictates a Rock Paper Scissors game as seen in past complaints whereas British is too linear where it literally only has one build order for every game every doctrine. Just something to think about, factor it into your suggestions


I knew you would say it. I was actually about to write this in my previous post already:
I expand the Rock Paper Scissors game with Hammers, Saws and so on.


This RPS thing also barely exist. I barely see jeeps in this match up bc its just too dangerous now. So at the end US comes down to many rifles and trying to be aggressive, or more passive with HMG and AT gun or recon/snipers right away. On WH side its usually always two AT rifle squads (bc they are also excellent for close combat in early game) and two volks or a HMG, AT rifles and Volks, all sitting behind silly sandbags and waiting for mortar.
I want to revive and extent this RPS system.

I also would give up a bit of this "tier style". Right now we tier everything against each other, Inf is T1-2, vehicles T2 and Tanks T3 and heavy armor T4.. Kind of.
And thats stupid. I would only tier inf against each other, vehicles against each other and armor. But i dont see how a stuart for example is a "higher tier" than a well armed and perhaps already boosted Gren squad.

So i would allow to have access to all categories of weapons very soon; Basic inf, basic armor and vehicles. And in each category exist tiers; early-late Inf/vehicles/tanks.


So see it as a revival of your RPS stuff which is currently quite dead. The game in general is again more campy again and a race of "who gets arty and reach max tier fastest".

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby mofetagalactica » 10 Mar 2019, 06:14

Warhawks97 wrote:
kwok wrote:Not saying the ideas are bad, but one thing to consider is the rock paper scissor effect you’d create by setting up that system. One good thing about formulaic build orders is it’s easier to control unit availability to reduce Rock Paper Scissors effects. That’s why some of the best match ups are USA vs WM, both are slightly linear that they can somewhat have a synchronized progression to late game. On the flip side you get the almost extremes for the other factions. PE is toooo flexible that it dictates a Rock Paper Scissors game as seen in past complaints whereas British is too linear where it literally only has one build order for every game every doctrine. Just something to think about, factor it into your suggestions


I knew you would say it. I was actually about to write this in my previous post already:
I expand the Rock Paper Scissors game with Hammers, Saws and so on.


This RPS thing also barely exist. I barely see jeeps in this match up bc its just too dangerous now. So at the end US comes down to many rifles and trying to be aggressive, or more passive with HMG and AT gun or recon/snipers right away. On WH side its usually always two AT rifle squads (bc they are also excellent for close combat in early game) and two volks or a HMG, AT rifles and Volks, all sitting behind silly sandbags and waiting for mortar.
I want to revive and extent this RPS system.

I also would give up a bit of this "tier style". Right now we tier everything against each other, Inf is T1-2, vehicles T2 and Tanks T3 and heavy armor T4.. Kind of.
And thats stupid. I would only tier inf against each other, vehicles against each other and armor. But i dont see how a stuart for example is a "higher tier" than a well armed and perhaps already boosted Gren squad.

So i would allow to have access to all categories of weapons very soon; Basic inf, basic armor and vehicles. And in each category exist tiers; early-late Inf/vehicles/tanks.


So see it as a revival of your RPS stuff which is currently quite dead. The game in general is again more campy again and a race of "who gets arty and reach max tier fastest".


Well said warhawks, we never play together but i actually feel the same about the current game.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Wehrmacht Tech system, Tigers and Panzer IV`s

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Mar 2019, 14:16

mofetagalactica wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:
kwok wrote:Not saying the ideas are bad, but one thing to consider is the rock paper scissor effect you’d create by setting up that system. One good thing about formulaic build orders is it’s easier to control unit availability to reduce Rock Paper Scissors effects. That’s why some of the best match ups are USA vs WM, both are slightly linear that they can somewhat have a synchronized progression to late game. On the flip side you get the almost extremes for the other factions. PE is toooo flexible that it dictates a Rock Paper Scissors game as seen in past complaints whereas British is too linear where it literally only has one build order for every game every doctrine. Just something to think about, factor it into your suggestions


I knew you would say it. I was actually about to write this in my previous post already:
I expand the Rock Paper Scissors game with Hammers, Saws and so on.


This RPS thing also barely exist. I barely see jeeps in this match up bc its just too dangerous now. So at the end US comes down to many rifles and trying to be aggressive, or more passive with HMG and AT gun or recon/snipers right away. On WH side its usually always two AT rifle squads (bc they are also excellent for close combat in early game) and two volks or a HMG, AT rifles and Volks, all sitting behind silly sandbags and waiting for mortar.
I want to revive and extent this RPS system.

I also would give up a bit of this "tier style". Right now we tier everything against each other, Inf is T1-2, vehicles T2 and Tanks T3 and heavy armor T4.. Kind of.
And thats stupid. I would only tier inf against each other, vehicles against each other and armor. But i dont see how a stuart for example is a "higher tier" than a well armed and perhaps already boosted Gren squad.

So i would allow to have access to all categories of weapons very soon; Basic inf, basic armor and vehicles. And in each category exist tiers; early-late Inf/vehicles/tanks.


So see it as a revival of your RPS stuff which is currently quite dead. The game in general is again more campy again and a race of "who gets arty and reach max tier fastest".


Well said warhawks, we never play together but i actually feel the same about the current game.



Thx, i havent played much till early februar when i finished my last uni exam. I played a few games per day since then, often late night, and it bored me all to death.

Current Meta is often two Volks and two AT rifle squads or one HMG, AT rifle, Volks and AT rifle again. All you can do is trying to rush rifles and early 60 mm to use smoke cover and force them out of sandbags or to go for recons/sniper and hope to snipe them all down.
The AT rifle squad is total denial against everything. They get put on flanks of the HMG and backed up by Pios/volks when an enemie attack on one side is imminent. Combined there are just so many rifles pointing at you that you cant really overwhelm them with rifle squads. They point in total 16 rifles against you and when you close in they do have MP40 on their AT squad. That all sucks so hard.
I tried "playing bigger maps" but it gets even worse. If its a map with houses and hedgrows then AT rifle squad is brutal due to its mobility and Mp40 and the ability to go inside houses. There is no "way arround" anymore to outplay them. Playing on open fields is the same. They sit there behind sandbags and the two AT rifle squads cover such a huge area (well placed roughly 110 range in diameter.... They create such a huge denial zone that you dont even have to try going arround with jeeps, M20, Greyhound or stuarts. You either rush for arty or shermans but everything below that is denied right from the start. Meanwhile you sit down on your ass with silly 60 mm mortar and AT gun while Pumas and Stugs dominate the flat fields just to get brutally "Anal-Raped" by 81 mm mortar very soon. So either you succeed with 60 mm mortar, smoke and rifle spam or you die. The only answer most players have is going inf doc and rush for calli jeep. Whenever i asked for the doctrine they answered: "inf doc" in over 90% of all cases. Its the only rea, option that is halfway save against that, in my opinion already stupid, simple double Volks/AT rifle combo (aka cloe combat squad) and sandbag camping mortar rush. And most of all its super boring bc its the same over and over again. And when you play vs PE you know exactly: Make progress before Hetzers get deployed or they Hetzer spam you to death. The games are currently as arty intense as in older versions where defensive camp was so brutally effective. We just reached that point again. After one month of playing i am sick of it again.


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