Weapon choices for PE AG

[winterflaw]

I play PE pretty much, tank-hunter.

I have an infantry group and a tank destroyer group (and the healing reinforcement half-track, doing a Rimmer and hiding behind the scanner table in the back of Starbug).

With the infantry, currently they can be given a single LMG42 and if they take this, then any combination of two Gr43/MP44 upgrades (so two Gr43, two MP44, or one of each), where an upgrade I think represents two weapons (so two of the six weapon slots).

If they don't take the LMG42, they can *still* only have two upgrades of Gr43 or MP44 - the third upgrade, the final two slots, *has* to be the other weapon.

Now, I'm fully down with the LMG42 being limited to a single weapon - they're not so common, so a squad only gets one, and there are game balance issues if you think of a squad toting three of these puppies.

But it might be I don't *want* an LMG42 in the first place - for example, the AGs running with the tanks don't want to stop very much, so the LMG42 is mainly dead weight - and the problem is when this is so, when I do not want an LMG42, probably I'm going to want the squad to be a pure weapon class, all Gr43 (static, defence, in a trench) or MP44 (running around with the tanks).

Being forced to have the cuckoo weapon isn't satisfying.

So, I'd like a bit more freedom in weapon choices - namely, I'd like to be able to select weapons as I wish, barring the LMG42 which is limited to a single unit, in the weapon slots available.

[Viper]

the lmg42 is very important for the heavy panzergrenadiers.
i think they should lose the g43 upgrade. because g43 is available for the normal panzergrenadiers anyway.
and the assault panzergrenadiers should get extra mp44 upgrade instead.

so the loadout could be 6 stg44
or
4 stg + 1 lmg42 + 1 kar98

[winterflaw]

the lmg42 is very important for the heavy panzergrenadiers.

In general yes, but in any use case when you're moving most of the time, because it's never safe to stop, it's dead weight; you almost never get to fire it.

i think they should lose the g43 upgrade. because g43 is available for the normal panzergrenadiers anyway.

The normal PGs only get one upgrade though - two rifles. The AG get three upgrades, two of which can be Gr43. I feel PGs are not intended for combat - assault engineers are for that I guess - so they get a bit of an upgrade but not much.

4 stg + 1 lmg42 + 1 kar98

That's seven? you mean with increased squad sizes?

One day - I've not done it yet - I want to recover a pair of LMG42 and have a single AG squad with three lawnmowers.

[kwok]

Sorry not understanding, if you don’t want the lmg then don’t upgrade it? you don’t need to upgrade the lmg to upgrade any other weapons.

[Warhawks97]

Sorry not understanding, if you don’t want the lmg then don’t upgrade it? you don’t need to upgrade the lmg to upgrade any other weapons.

yes, but you cant have a full squad with stg, thus keeping K98 which sucks for assault purposes. So he is asking why he cant have six stg44.
I understand that some might say "uh, 6 stg is OP" but the current upgrade design "sucks" i would say bc in any way you have to keep a weapon for ranged combat (k98, G43 or lmg42) while you want the unit for offensive actions.


The basic grens should be able to get more than 2 G43.
The assault grens should lose G43 and get the option to have all men equiped with assault weapons, perhaps even MP40 if you think 6 stg are too much.


I dont like to bother arround with it again but someone recently brought this idea up again which i once proposed (i think it was menicus, not sure though).

PE inf starts as 4 men squads with possibilty to upgrade to 5 men very quickly if you decide to go the inf path.

Assault pios have standard 2 stg and 2-3 MP40 (flamehtrower as only standard upgrade)
Grens would start with 4-5 K98 and 4-5 G43 as upgrades avaialble
Assault grens would start with 1 stg and 3-4 K98 and 3-4 stg available and also one lmg42 available.... perhaps also even cheap Mp40 if you dont want to put so much ammo into one squad so it could be a mix of at least 1x stg and the other 3-4 men can use 1xlmg42 or up to 3-4 STG/MP40.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Yeah I would like to see smaller inf squads for PE so they aren't so catastrophic to lose. I've seen games where a PE player lost his entire Panzergrenadier squad to something like a single mortar shell within 5 minutes and he never came back from it.

The Infantry Halftrack and the infantry size upgrade would make more sense if PE infantry was smaller in numbers (and strength) + cost. The infantry size upgrade could then become a nice trade-off. Where if you want similar sizes in inf squads like the rest of the factions you can get more men but you also pay more for buying the entire squad. I would like the choice between having small squads of elite infantry vs big squads of elite infantry. With this nobody would really complain about PE infantry squads being fully upgraded with all members using a certain weapon because they would be 4 or 5 men.

I will note that currently the only squad worth putting inside the PE infantry halftrack is the tank buster squad with a single panzershreck. Only they are capable of making use of all the firing slots on top of the halftrack to their full potential while the 7 man squads make inefficient use of them. Not very 'Panzergrenadier-y' that I can't use the Panzergrenadier squads with mechanized elements because losing them all in one stroke would cost me the game.

[winterflaw]

Sorry not understanding, if you don’t want the lmg then don’t upgrade it? you don’t need to upgrade the lmg to upgrade any other weapons.

Yes - and no. If you do not take the LMG42, then you can indeed take three upgrades of Gr43 and/or MP44. However, you cannot have *all three upgrades* being Gr43, or all three being MP44. Only two upgrades can be of one weapon type, and then the final upgrade is forced to be the other weapon type.

[winterflaw]

The basic grens should be able to get more than 2 G43.

Viper said that too, but speaking for myself, I don't want it. Those guys are builders. I'd rather they had *no* upgrade han more. When I want long range fire (squad in a trench) then I put an AG squad with Gr43s into play. I'm fine with that.

The assault grens should lose G43 and get the option to have all men equiped with assault weapons, perhaps even MP40 if you think 6 stg are too much.

Hey - no MP40 crap for me, thanks very much! PE are mobile and about punch. PE pay their price in being weak for area of effect attacks. If the inf is made weaker too, then what do they have?

PE inf starts as 4 men squads with possibilty to upgrade to 5 men very quickly if you decide to go the inf path.

You'd have to upgrade always for the tank-hunter doc. That doc for me is about an inf team and an armour team. If the inf team is weak, I mean, four men, and think about how expensive the weapon upgrades are, then you're going to need to pull them out of combat all the time to reinforce. Of course, quite ofen you'd just lose the squad, and then that doc becomes problematic.

I'm really not a fan of that proposed change, I'm afraid, at all. I really like how it is now, I just don't want to be forced to have a weapon which doesn't fit with what the squad is being used for.

[winterflaw]

Yeah I would like to see smaller inf squads for PE so they aren't so catastrophic to lose. I've seen games where a PE player lost his entire Panzergrenadier squad to something like a single mortar shell within 5 minutes and he never came back from it.

But how does that work when it comes to the cost of weapon upgrades? if you put 200 muni into a squad, you really don't want it to die. If squads are smaller, so they're less expensive to lose, then it implies not upgrading them, because that's throwing muni away.

The Infantry Halftrack and the infantry size upgrade would make more sense if PE infantry was smaller in numbers (and strength) + cost. The infantry size upgrade could then become a nice trade-off. Where if you want similar sizes in inf squads like the rest of the factions you can get more men but you also pay more for buying the entire squad. I would like the choice between having small squads of elite infantry vs big squads of elite infantry. With this nobody would really complain about PE infantry squads being fully upgraded with all members using a certain weapon because they would be 4 or 5 men.

Currently we have a six man squad, and each man can be upgraded - there are three upgrades of two weapons each. The original post was about being allowed only to use two upgrades of one type.

If the squad is now four men, then that's two upgrades only. The original post upgrade problem has been solved - by removing the upgrade, AND two men!!

Thanks a bunch admin - ignore this man!!

The idea is there with this to upgrade the squad size - to five men - but this does what? it's still a nerf only on where we are now. The current squad can have an LMG42 and four MP44. A five man squad could have five MP44, so you're trading an LMG42 for an MP44 and loosing a man.

Thanks but no thanks!

I will note that currently the only squad worth putting inside the PE infantry halftrack is the tank buster squad with a single panzershreck. Only they are capable of making use of all the firing slots on top of the halftrack to their full potential while the 7 man squads make inefficient use of them. Not very 'Panzergrenadier-y' that I can't use the Panzergrenadier squads with mechanized elements because losing them all in one stroke would cost me the game.

Well, I only play tank-hunter, and the only non-tank-destroyer vehicle I build these days is the healing half-track. The rest of it just sucks up fuel from the important stuff. I've literally never fought a squad from inside a vehicle. It seems a very expensive way to lose a vehicle? but I've never tried it, so I could be completely wrong.

[Warhawks97]

Viper said that too, but speaking for myself, I don't want it. Those guys are builders. I'd rather they had *no* upgrade han more. When I want long range fire (squad in a trench) then I put an AG squad with Gr43s into play. I'm fine with that.

they build base buildings but are no "builder"... i mean assault pios build the actual defenses, so they are builder.

PE is not designed to have "builder" and combat units or "basic" and "elites". The original intention of PE is to be elite all over the place and highly tactical with elite units rather than cumbersome and slow in game progress.

The G43 would actually not "just better" than k98, but a cheap option to switch from max range combat orientated fighting to more aggressive mid range combat. In BK G43 is the "nuke" among rifles.

Hey - no MP40 crap for me, thanks very much! PE are mobile and about punch. PE pay their price in being weak for area of effect attacks. If the inf is made weaker too, then what do they have?

I wanted to add some variety. MP40 was very common and its not that bad in BK, just the STG "overshines" everything and is everywhere while being rather rare while the millions of build mp40 do not even occure once in a matches.

You'd have to upgrade always for the tank-hunter doc. That doc for me is about an inf team and an armour team. If the inf team is weak, I mean, four men, and think about how expensive the weapon upgrades are, then you're going to need to pull them out of combat all the time to reinforce. Of course, quite ofen you'd just lose the squad, and then that doc becomes problematic.

Well... how much does a super strong expensive squad helps with stgs and lmg when a sherman comes arround and you have no MP left to build AT?
How much does a elite squad helps when its dead and you cant afford a new squad.

Not sure how much pvp you play, but what menicus described happens in pvp... one bad luck moment... a nade, mortar hit or whatever that kills your early inf and PE never recovers from it, loses mid game and thus late game.

Instead of one squad with 6 men you would have two with 8 men and a halftrack that reinforces your inf, or with 10 men when going the inf path.

I'm really not a fan of that proposed change, I'm afraid, at all. I really like how it is now, I just don't want to be forced to have a weapon which doesn't fit with what the squad is being used for.

depends on game style.

Those who prefer less mirco and raher pure power for high cost play PE/CW... the tactical people and micro heavy prefer US and WH bc here you can win with tactics, not by simple unit stats/cost.

I love PE units... let it me assault grens, jagpanther, luftwaffe inf.... they all look amazing.... but i hate this "non-elite" cumbersome behaviour of the faction. WH BK doc does it best among all axis docs when prefering unit combination/tactics/micro to achieve victory.

For the same reason ive never ever build a Elephant, Jagdtiger or Tiger in pvp games (or if just for trolling)

But how does that work when it comes to the cost of weapon upgrades? if you put 200 muni into a squad, you really don't want it to die. If squads are smaller, so they're less expensive to lose, then it implies not upgrading them, because that's throwing muni away.

one would come with stg and two upgrades mo40 makes 100 ammo for me for in total 5 stg.

Currently we have a six man squad, and each man can be upgraded - there are three upgrades of two weapons each. The original post was about being allowed only to use two upgrades of one type.

If the squad is now four men, then that's two upgrades only. The original post upgrade problem has been solved - by removing the upgrade, AND two men!!



The idea is there with this to upgrade the squad size - to five men - but this does what? it's still a nerf only on where we are now. The current squad can have an LMG42 and four MP44. A five man squad could have five MP44, so you're trading an LMG42 for an MP44 and loosing a man.

Thanks but no thanks!

nerf depends on from what perspective you look at it.

Currently:
Put your units in cover and hope your stats are better than theirs.... i barely see PE players with more than 3 or even 2 inf squads (exception luft but they dont use anythng else quite often).

Changing size changes cost changes ammount of (different) units fielded at once.... How much does 7 men with stg help vs a single greyhound?
How much help 7 men vs enemie inf? a lot, almost "overkill".
So we trade "overkill" capacities in order to get something that can handle the greyhound/sherman etc.

At the end the army would handle much easier bc it can field more different weapon types and thats what matters in war....

Sience ww1 and the rise of MG´s the sheer size in men doesnt makes an army strong.


[/quote]
Well, I only play tank-hunter, and the only non-tank-destroyer vehicle I build these days is the healing half-track. The rest of it just sucks up fuel from the important stuff. I've literally never fought a squad from inside a vehicle. It seems a very expensive way to lose a vehicle? but I've never tried it, so I could be completely wrong.[/quote]


Lose 380+ MP to a stupid mortar hit while you stood in your nice cover is also expensive and a stupid loss.
Or you lose a 260 MP HT and a 240 MP inf squad inside of it is also expensive, but you dont need to regain 400 MP at once to get a new unit... you can replace partial losses quicker and recover fully at about the same time.

Its also less likely for me to lose HT and inf at once as most would embark their inf before rushing in an area with guns etc...

In all PE could be played a lot more aggressive... less risk of fatal losses, more unit types, more combinations.

[winterflaw]

they build base buildings but are no "builder"... i mean assault pios build the actual defenses, so they are builder.

Interesting. I've made assault pios *once*, when I was looking at I think it's SE? to build the 12cm mortar building.

I play tank-hunter, and I mean I think PE anyway, if you're making static defences, you're playing them wrong - try Wehr Defensive. I find PE is all about mobile. Putting resource and time into static defences is the wrong tune.

PE is not designed to have "builder" and combat units or "basic" and "elites". The original intention of PE is to be elite all over the place and highly tactical with elite units rather than cumbersome and slow in game progress.

Original in BKM you mean?

I mean, I have no idea what the goal was, but for me, they're a mobile force, and that's how - and why - I play them.

The G43 would actually not "just better" than k98, but a cheap option to switch from max range combat orientated fighting to more aggressive mid range combat. In BK G43 is the "nuke" among rifles.

Interesting. Is this true? admins? I've heard different people say different things.

I wanted to add some variety. MP40 was very common and its not that bad in BK, just the STG "overshines" everything and is everywhere while being rather rare while the millions of build mp40 do not even occure once in a matches.

A good motive.

(I still don't want them

Well... how much does a super strong expensive squad helps with stgs and lmg when a sherman comes arround and you have no MP left to build AT?

Well, playing in my particular way, I never build AT. I build tank destroyers - you get to them faster with PE/TH. My main problem is the Brits getting Stuarts out early. By the time Shermans are out, I'm running a combined inf/armour team.

Remember though - BKM is tuned for PvP. I'm only playing AIs. Different strokes.

How much does a elite squad helps when its dead and you cant afford a new squad.

Not sure how much pvp you play, but what menicus described happens in pvp... one bad luck moment... a nade, mortar hit or whatever that kills your early inf and PE never recovers from it, loses mid game and thus late game.

Yeah. I understand it. I played a lot of PvP with original COH, that dynamic is there as well - the early part of the game is very sensitive.

Those who prefer less mirco and raher pure power for high cost play PE/CW... the tactical people and micro heavy prefer US and WH bc here you can win with tactics, not by simple unit stats/cost.

I'm not sure where I fall in this. I'm very attentive to the units - I mean, honestly, I don't see how any can not be - if you look away for a bit too long when you come back your unit is often dead - and I can't say I'm winning on stats/cost, not least because I'm usually outnumbered. It's about movement, cover, reinf/healing in the field.

I love PE units... let it me assault grens, jagpanther, luftwaffe inf.... they all look amazing.... but i hate this "non-elite" cumbersome behaviour of the faction. WH BK doc does it best among all axis docs when prefering unit combination/tactics/micro to achieve victory.

I don't know what you mean about the non-elite behaviour?

But I concur WH BK is next on my list - but I just love that I don't need engs (gets rid of a lot of hassle) and I get a healing half-track from the word go. (Well that and I hate tanks because of turrents. I'm *not* a fan of Tiger/Panther, etc, and they're sooo expensive compared to PE IV/70. The PE JP is super expensive though, it's just not worth it. You're better off with more IV/70s).

Currently:
Put your units in cover and hope your stats are better than theirs.... i barely see PE players with more than 3 or even 2 inf squads (exception luft but they dont use anythng else quite often).

Riiiight, but I mean, part of that is saving MP for armour. Once I get some armour out, then I get some more inf. Also though part of that I think is the high muni cost of upgrades. Those squads don't do much till you upgrade them, then they're totally different. Another aspect it that inf in the field are MP sinks, from reinf. More inf, most costs.

Changing size changes cost changes ammount of (different) units fielded at once.... How much does 7 men with stg help vs a single greyhound?
How much help 7 men vs enemie inf? a lot, almost "overkill".
So we trade "overkill" capacities in order to get something that can handle the greyhound/sherman etc.

As you say, depends on playing style. I have literally never, not once, built AT grenadiers. Why bother? you can get to tank destroyers very quickly.

Lose 380+ MP to a stupid mortar hit while you stood in your nice cover is also expensive and a stupid loss.

Yes, absolutely true, but that's why I have to be attentive, and why I have to keep them moving, and so why I don't want an LMG42, which was the original post

[kwok]

Question about smaller squad idea: PE is already has huge problems against early game sniper spams because of exactly the reasons you described. By making squads small, it will GREATLY magnify the problem smaller squad sizes definitely give more options for high micro style players but to the new people it will be even more punishing because of how quickly they’d lose units and need to spend to replace them. Even good players might run into an issue holding or gaining ground with infantry because of needing to retreat too soon and so often.

Do you have a counter balancing idea to the early sniper spam?

[Warhawks97]

Question about smaller squad idea: PE is already has huge problems against early game sniper spams because of exactly the reasons you described. By making squads small, it will GREATLY magnify the problem smaller squad sizes definitely give more options for high micro style players but to the new people it will be even more punishing because of how quickly they’d lose units and need to spend to replace them. Even good players might run into an issue holding or gaining ground with infantry because of needing to retreat too soon and so often.

Do you have a counter balancing idea to the early sniper spam?

Logistic company made cheaper by 10 fuel. That allows instant mechanized support and thus punishs sniper only spam player. The log upgrade increased by 10 fuel to keep tec up balance.


Also scout car with the option to upgrade a "scouting tool" as alternative to the one that allows to lock points. That transforms it technically into some sort of recce/M20 right in the early game to handle such nasty things.

Means you get inf and nice support with scout cars and halftracks or mobile AT.

I know that 4 men squads wont stand a chance alone but that wasnt my intention. Either you can boost them right away to 5 men (without increasing build cost, only build time cost go up as well as upkeep) to have proper inf force (as SE/Luft you get snipers by your own anyway) or have decent mechanized support. The enemie wouldnt be able to simply spam snipers or only AT guns. You can keep enemie forces busy in the center and use a small force of grens with HT to rush a side, cap points etc.

[MenciusMoldbug]

I don't like snipers; I made posts about how they were broken in the past with almost 0 aim time and I still think they are broken. They are 'backflip shooters' who can run at units from max range. Take a shot within a second and then start moving backwards like they are doing MJ's moonwalk. Even if PE remains the same as it is; I would still nerf snipers so they are less rambo units who are capable of taking on infantry squads by themselves. The only way for inf squads to 'beat' snipers right now is to sprint fullspeed and hope they have automatic weapons when they get right next to them. With their uber amounts of HP they can take a lot of rifle shots before they go down (140 is a lot when you take into account their vet buffs too).

I still want to increase their aim times so they don't shoot faster than AT weapons. Hitting a guy in the head with a rifle should be a lot harder than aiming an AT gun at a big mass of steel. Adjusting their camouflage speed should also be done with this in conjunction so counter-sniping is still a viable tactic.

For the infantry squad sizes there's a half-way solution. How it would work:

You start the game with squad size of 4 with the cheaper MP cost for buying a squad while having them in small numbers. You would build your kamfgruppe kompanie (the building where you build assault grens, sturmpios, mg42s, etc.) and there would be 2 infantry squad size upgrades that can put your numbers up to 5 and then the second will put it to 6. They will get back to their numbers strength and cost with those upgrades as we have them now. The upgrades themselves will essentially be 'free' in that the resources PE starts with will be increased a bit to let you get them for no cost. So both upgrades could cost 75 MP and 15 Munitions. This only adds enough munitions for PE to toss an extra grenade if they don't want the squad size upgrade (you could also get 2 MG42s at the start but because of allied counters; almost nobody does this even in high res games). The additional MP income doesn't change much on standard or high resource except getting a kettenkrad faster maybe.

In this way, the player can decide if he wants to work with smaller, more numerous squads; or go for bigger, less number of squads. I personally never get the 7th man upgrade for PE inf because the squad size is too much for me. I've played plenty of games too where most people will get every upgrade in the kamfgruppe kompanie but the squad size upgrade. Usually because it increases the total cost of buying back a squad.

You can satisfy most peoples playstyles in this way. Guys who like to micro more can play with smaller squads. Guys who don't like working their finger bones too much because it will cause injuries later can get the 2 squad size upgrades from the beginning and play PE as it was.

This also means you don't have to remove the potential 'third squad size upgrade' that is in the kamfgruppe kompanie because it means they will be back to their 'full' strength of 7 men with the same uber MP cost they have currently.

The other possibility that I didn't think too much into is to have certain squads like panzergrenadiers just be 4 men (so they can support mechanized elements better). The rest can be 6 or 7 like assault grenadiers and assault pioneers.

[Viper]

PE is already has huge problems against early game sniper spams because of exactly the reasons you described. By making squads small, it will GREATLY magnify the problem

good point. exactly what i thought too.
i think snipers should lose the rapid firing ability.

[winterflaw]

You can satisfy most peoples playstyles in this way. Guys who like to micro more can play with smaller squads. Guys who don't like working their finger bones too much because it will cause injuries later can get the 2 squad size upgrades from the beginning and play PE as it was.

I may be wrong, but a question here seems to be where you put, in the game design, these choices.

Are they manifested at the doctrine level, or are they manifested *inside* a doctrine?

If they are inside a doctrine, then the difference between doctrines becomes much less.

[MenciusMoldbug]

They would be doctrineless; you can take them without a doctrine. I know some mods have stuff like this tied to reward options. Where you can replace your infantry with another form of infantry before you start the game but idk if that's the right choice here for inf sizes.

I don't like panzer grenadiers being such a huge squads because their benefits later on are minuscule to the other stuff you get. I've said it before that there's no reason to build them over assault grenadiers because the only positives panzer grenadiers have later on is they can make base buildings. When you have all of them there's no point to their existence.

[winterflaw]

They would be doctrineless; you can take them without a doctrine.

I'm an idiot. I said doctrine but I meant army.

My point in general is when it's possible to have wide-ranging configurations, then you can be many things, and so the difference between higher level, less flexible constructs goes away.

I don't like panzer grenadiers being such a huge squads because their benefits later on are minuscule to the other stuff you get. I've said it before that there's no reason to build them over assault grenadiers because the only positives panzer grenadiers have later on is they can make base buildings. When you have all of them there's no point to their existence.

I concur, but I don't mind - sure, I never build them. But I don't mind, because I do have the unit I need, the AGs, whcih I do build. I only ever have the first squad of PGs, and they're useful for helping other people defend (repairs, trenches, sandbags, etc).

[Warhawks97]

I mean, I have no idea what the goal was, but for me, they're a mobile force, and that's how - and why - I play them.

well, and here is the prob. The reason why i like US/WH more is bc they have cheap rifles/volksgrens. Thus i can have lots of units and they are mobile. PE and CW is too static bc you have less units. For CW its ok for me but PE should be more about mobility, tactics and combined arms.

A good motive.

(I still don't want them

you wouldnt have to buy them. But when G43 would go there is a free slot. In pvp every bit of spared res can be vital.

Well, playing in my particular way, I never build AT. I build tank destroyers - you get to them faster with PE/TH. My main problem is the Brits getting Stuarts out early. By the time Shermans are out, I'm running a combined inf/armour team.

PE can get good AT very fast and esspecially TH building is quickly build. In PvE it might be that bot is faster.

Remember though - BKM is tuned for PvP. I'm only playing AIs. Different strokes.

thats why we probably would never find a common point of view.

How much does a elite squad helps when its dead and you cant afford a new squad.

Not sure how much pvp you play, but what menicus described happens in pvp... one bad luck moment... a nade, mortar hit or whatever that kills your early inf and PE never recovers from it, loses mid game and thus late game.

I'm not sure where I fall in this. I'm very attentive to the units - I mean, honestly, I don't see how any can not be - if you look away for a bit too long when you come back your unit is often dead - and I can't say I'm winning on stats/cost, not least because I'm usually outnumbered. It's about movement, cover, reinf/healing in the field.

Thats the rule for all units. Movment is vital. However in pvp the lack of units forces you to play not so aggressive and mobile as you would like to.

I love PE units... let it me assault grens, jagpanther, luftwaffe inf.... they all look amazing.... but i hate this "non-elite" cumbersome behaviour of the faction. WH BK doc does it best among all axis docs when prefering unit combination/tactics/micro to achieve victory.

I don't know what you mean about the non-elite behaviour?

Riiiight, but I mean, part of that is saving MP for armour. Once I get some armour out, then I get some more inf. Also though part of that I think is the high muni cost of upgrades. Those squads don't do much till you upgrade them, then they're totally different. Another aspect it that inf in the field are MP sinks, from reinf. More inf, most costs.

Thats the Meta. But as i said, why spending + 300 MP for an "overkill" in terms of anti inf which delays your anti tank stuff, when anti inf could cost less than 300 and thus tanks coming faster as support.

As you say, depends on playing style. I have literally never, not once, built AT grenadiers. Why bother? you can get to tank destroyers very quickly.

in PvE anti tank inf makes no sense, true. PvP is different.

I don't like snipers; I made posts about how they were broken in the past with almost 0 aim time and I still think they are broken. They are 'backflip shooters' who can run at units from max range. Take a shot within a second and then start moving backwards like they are doing MJ's moonwalk. Even if PE remains the same as it is; I would still nerf snipers so they are less rambo units who are capable of taking on infantry squads by themselves. The only way for inf squads to 'beat' snipers right now is to sprint fullspeed and hope they have automatic weapons when they get right next to them. With their uber amounts of HP they can take a lot of rifle shots before they go down (140 is a lot when you take into account their vet buffs too).

I still want to increase their aim times so they don't shoot faster than AT weapons. Hitting a guy in the head with a rifle should be a lot harder than aiming an AT gun at a big mass of steel. Adjusting their camouflage speed should also be done with this in conjunction so counter-sniping is still a viable tactic.

agreed.

For the infantry squad sizes there's a half-way solution. How it would work:

You start the game with squad size of 4 with the cheaper MP cost for buying a squad while having them in small numbers. You would build your kamfgruppe kompanie (the building where you build assault grens, sturmpios, mg42s, etc.) and there would be 2 infantry squad size upgrades that can put your numbers up to 5 and then the second will put it to 6. They will get back to their numbers strength and cost with those upgrades as we have them now. The upgrades themselves will essentially be 'free' in that the resources PE starts with will be increased a bit to let you get them for no cost. So both upgrades could cost 75 MP and 15 Munitions. This only adds enough munitions for PE to toss an extra grenade if they don't want the squad size upgrade (you could also get 2 MG42s at the start but because of allied counters; almost nobody does this even in high res games). The additional MP income doesn't change much on standard or high resource except getting a kettenkrad faster maybe.

In this way, the player can decide if he wants to work with smaller, more numerous squads; or go for bigger, less number of squads. I personally never get the 7th man upgrade for PE inf because the squad size is too much for me. I've played plenty of games too where most people will get every upgrade in the kamfgruppe kompanie but the squad size upgrade. Usually because it increases the total cost of buying back a squad.

You can satisfy most peoples playstyles in this way. Guys who like to micro more can play with smaller squads. Guys who don't like working their finger bones too much because it will cause injuries later can get the 2 squad size upgrades from the beginning and play PE as it was.

This also means you don't have to remove the potential 'third squad size upgrade' that is in the kamfgruppe kompanie because it means they will be back to their 'full' strength of 7 men with the same uber MP cost they have currently.

The other possibility that I didn't think too much into is to have certain squads like panzergrenadiers just be 4 men (so they can support mechanized elements better). The rest can be 6 or 7 like assault grenadiers and assault pioneers.

Well, i would approach it differently.
You would create a faction in faction basically. You start as faction x with its unique style and end up at y again.
I dont like the unit cost of PE not only in the early game, but through the entire game.


Instead if a wall of text i make it short. Note pls that neither in vcoh nor in BK the unit build cost increases with size increase, in fact they drop by 1 MP in BK.


the upgrade that adds +1 men also drops cost of each model to maintain total build cost, and i would like to keep it.


So quick now, providing data.


Gren squad:
cost per men: 55. Total build cost: 220.
Build time per men: 7,5 sec. Total build time: 30 sec, 37,5 with 5th men. US rifles take 36 sec as comparision.
Reinforce cost modifier: 0.5
Weapons: K98 with accuracy buff (0.45 long and 0.4 max range from currently 0.35 each). Can be fully equiped with G43. Cost for them dropped to 20 ammo for 2 g43. Damage per bullet dropped to standard K98 damage level


Assault grens squad:
cost per men: 70. Total build cost: 280.
Build time per men: 8,5 sec. Total build time: 34 sec, 42,5 with 5th men.
Reinforce cost modifier: 0.5
Weapons: 1x STG, 3xK98 (elite). Option 1x lmg42 (85 ammo) or 4-5 stg or MP40 (both available and player can chose based on situation and ressources)

Storm pios:
cost per men: 65. Total build cost: 260.
Build time per men: 7 sec. Total build time: 28 sec, 35 with 5th men.
Reinforce cost modifier: 0.5
Weapons: 2x STG, 2-3 MP40 (elite). Option 1x lmg42 (85 ammo) or 4-5 stg


Changes to "upgrade_squad_size"
Squad Size modifier: 1.35 (4x1,35=5,4 soldiers= 5 soldiers. I tried with addition "+1" but somehow failed)
Squad cost modifier: 0.8 (that way you maintain the exact same cost)


Changes to "upgrade_capture rate":
Capture modifier for Grens and Storm pios: 2 (boosts cap speed from 0.75 to 1.5 which puts them on pair with rifles and WH grens)
Cpture modifier for Assault grens: 2.5 (boosts to 1.875, making them fastest caping unit in the game)
Capture modifier for SS squad: 1.25 (boosts from 1.5 to 1.875)
Capture modifier for Luftwaffe fallis squad: 1.875 (boosts from 1 to 1.875)

PE would become the master of capture. One leak in the defense and territories are gone. Excellent suited for quick surprise attacks.


The "6/7 men issue":

Assuming snipers might get changed with long aim time etc there wont be a need for an assault squad to have a sniper that requires 4 sec standing still.
The SS squad would be transformed into a 6 or 7 men strong unit that can be fully equiped with stgs, or 2-3 lmgs or schrecks or a mix of it. A real allrounder. Cost for call in would be 400-450 MP and the unit could be called perhaps twice.


Thus you have 4 men forces that provide huge flexibility and mobility that can adapt quickly to situations with all doing a specific job.
Later you go up to 5 men to maintain balance (when allied throw mixes of tanks/vehicles and inf, 4 men wont surive long, i tested it).

The 6-7 men strong infantry (assault) forces are provided by call ins. Fallis and gebis maintain their strenght as well.
So players would have a huge range from different 4-7 men strong squads with an unseen combination of different elite units.


Changes to Logistic company:

in order to provide early on vehicle support for the small inf formations and to provided needed mobility, the build cost of this building drop down by 5-10 fuel, allwoning almost instant access to transport or healing halftrack as well as mobile light AT and scout cars which can either be transformed into logistic vehicles to secure points or "sniper hunters".

[winterflaw]

Just a note to remind that my original request was just and only being able to pick three upgrades of the same type for PE AG =-)