Clear demands.

[Erich]

in tank battle? yes try to kill tigers,panther with E8 ¬¬

[Wolf]

Ever heard of Jackson? Jumbo? Pershing? M10 Command Car? Even bloody hellcats can take down tigers nicely.
Don't tell me that you can't play Armor without SP... seriously, don't even start.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Crimax; U r right but this is just an initial topic and no decisions would be surely taken before wide public polls are made as I think and believe.

@Wolf; U just can't apply some of the suggestions while at the same time deny the others as I guess they are all very firmly connected to each other...

1) Tiger tank will not anyhow disappear by this change I am sure, and I am one of those who really loves this tank and so surely me is probably the player who makes use of it most successfully and as u can obviously see through replays, that's why I do know and realize what I am saying very well about that as I strongly claim.. listen to me plz!

7)_9)_10)_12)_13) Pershing Ace is not needed as it's clearly a normal Pershing that dies too fast without any distinguished abilities even!! SP will be there more late only once to save Allies from JTs, KTs, and Elephants, so much legit as I can see... While Allies will have better fuel income and less upkeep issues according to when achieving what we asked about upkeep costs which will give them more bonuses and make their tanks more appealing after Supply Yard and Sand Bags costs are also changed to be decreased as we ordered.

[Warhawks97]

Ah... okay, so the only way to play Armor doc right now is SP... seriously, I am out again I guess...

ask terence, sukin, zhivago hell the svt clan, cyber, butter, erich, tiger, elpio and just everybody. If axis are aware of their advantage and their heavy tank spam capabilies then SP is the only hope.

I got overruned not using SP. Sukin and erich survived only due to SP!

I am the ONLY one currently trying to play inf doc with rifles in late game and e8 with armor doc. I am trying not using Pershings and instead only jacks and e8 but i feel always helpless. All others switched to persh and persh ace.

and unexperienced tank player going only for jumbo and persh anyway. I havent seen e8 in the past two month that got not fielded by me. Erich and sukin gave up recently.

[Erich]

Ever heard of Jackson? Jumbo? Pershing? M10 Command Car? Even bloody hellcats can take down tigers nicely.
Don't tell me that you can't play Armor without SP... seriously, don't even start.

wheres is cyber now? a tiger veted can kill all of those unity easy if not agree ask to cyber.

[Warhawks97]

Ever heard of Jackson? Jumbo? Pershing? M10 Command Car? Even bloody hellcats can take down tigers nicely.
Don't tell me that you can't play Armor without SP... seriously, don't even start.

ever heard of fuel issue? silly upkeep issue? overpriced supply yard... god lord! How it looks? Tank IV in min 12 and right 3 of them. reaction: Jumbo+ 1 or 2 Hellcat= fuel income drop of 15 before supply yard is even build! How do you imagine to build and upgrade supply yard when having no fuel! jacks.... haha we cant even get shermans except jumbo and you talk about fielding 110 fuel unit LOL. This must be a huge joke.. lmao..... ever heard of WE at squad rushing till revealing hidden tank?

also nice... counter with hellcat and jacks ambush.... but how to get into offense? Armor doc is pure defensive camp with hellcat already.


Wolf: just take it as suggested and where the community aggres on. IF there will be balance issue we will inform you early enough. We will also let you know when axis wont be able to win in 12-15 mins, dont worry men!

[Wolf]

7)_9)_10)_12)_13) Pershing Ace is not needed as it's clearly a normal Pershing that dies too fast without any distinguished abilities even!! SP will be there more late only once to save Allies from JTs, KTs, and Elephants, so much legit as I can see... While Allies will have better fuel income and less upkeep issues according to when achieving what we asked about upkeep costs which will give them more bonuses and make their tanks more appealing after Supply Yard and Sand Bags costs are also changed to be decreased as we ordered.

- No its not a normal pershing
- PAce doesn't need any fuel, so its kind of bonus WITHOUT FUEL unit
- Many still prefer PAce to SP, I have no intention to make it disappear, like I didn't want SP to disappear too

I kind of starting to get what everyone hated about Warhawks, sorry man, but I am tired of your this happened and that happened, you clearly have shown, by saying that these things would not affect 2vs2 that you are just trying to force what would you want. Calculations here and there, if I buy my units who everybody builds, it will be only that. I can't imagine how could you even play the game in like 4.7, where supply yard stuff was even more expensive, overall US income lower etc. I don't get it, suddenly Armor doc cannot be played without SP? I mean seriously you don't think you are trying WAY WAY too much here? This is ridiculous, removing PAce because its suddenly not needed? I was like WHAT???

@Erich: who the hell even are you, warhawks & co. are trying hard to make me to ask you for changes and you didn't even get me any reason why should I with any of your posts.

[Warhawks97]

7)_9)_10)_12)_13) Pershing Ace is not needed as it's clearly a normal Pershing that dies too fast without any distinguished abilities even!! SP will be there more late only once to save Allies from JTs, KTs, and Elephants, so much legit as I can see... While Allies will have better fuel income and less upkeep issues according to when achieving what we asked about upkeep costs which will give them more bonuses and make their tanks more appealing after Supply Yard and Sand Bags costs are also changed to be decreased as we ordered.

- No its not a normal pershing
- PAce doesn't need any fuel, so its kind of bonus WITHOUT FUEL unit
- Many still prefer PAce to SP, I have no intention to make it disappear, like I didn't want SP to disappear too

I kind of starting to get what everyone hated about Warhawks, sorry man, but I am tired of your this happened and that happened, you clearly have shown, by saying that these things would not affect 2vs2 that you are just trying to force what would you want. Calculations here and there, if I buy my units who everybody builds, it will be only that. I can't imagine how could you even play the game in like 4.7, where supply yard stuff was even more expensive, overall US income lower etc. I don't get it, suddenly Armor doc cannot be played without SP? I mean seriously you don't think you are trying WAY WAY too much here? This is ridiculous, removing PAce because its suddenly not needed? I was like WHAT???

reason why people got persh ace was the double shot ability.... anyway, stay if you want.


you know what? i will stop right now..... one guy (v13dweller hates me. cyber, butter, erich, tiger, terence, svt clan, alexandertheaverage, hf clan and many other do agree and support me btw). You turned realities.

I havent played much in 4.7 and i played other games and mainly vcoh. And if i played BK then only axis. I´ve been axis only player for a long time. Thing is that currently every axis player is now playing like i do and playing aggressively with Tank IV´s. Even the most famous 88 campers are now playing bk doc. I also i played with many randoms and teached them my tactic with axis and now i face them when i played axis and they do start rushing and beating me with my own BK tactic. Thats why i becomes more and more urgent because beofre i could beat them due to their own mistakes.


But nice... you warned me so i say cya from my side. But dont be surprised when 6 new will continue my discussion and fight here.

[Erich]

oh.. i forget it my opinion is the same of the Tiger. Ok?

I just do not agree with your thoughts on what needs to change.

[Wolf]

reason why people got persh ace was the double shot ability.... anyway, stay if you want.

Jeez, that is the prime example, you are assuming, that people only ever got it for double shot ability. Bullshit.

[MarKr]

I will interrupt this with a little idea - How about making snadbag upgrades not global but per unit (same way as Skirts upgrade works for many Axis tanks). It could cost like 50MP 15Ammo (just an example) and you could upgrade them when ever you want. It would actually be more expensive on MP in the long run but you would save some fuel and you wouldn't have to upgrade every tank, you could let's say upgrade vetted ones or only those that you know you will need upgraded for offense or whatever... iirc all Shermans have still one free upgrade slot.

Just an idea so don't crucify me if it is a colosal nonsense

[V13dweller]

Wow, just wow.

This reduced the chance of my group updating to nil, especially now that Warhawks and his crew are in charge.

If you'll is a problem for you, your not playing right.

Ever heard of Secured Resourcing? If an RE player does it, you can get over +40 from one fuel point!!! Seriously, whenever I play allied, someone on my team goes RE and does that and fuel is not an issue. All RE truck with the upgrade can produce more than an OP can do, just put them on fuel and it's fine, massive fuel income.

But if your to blind to see that, god help you.

I don't even know why I come to this forum anymore. It seems like Warhawks and his crew basically run the place since everyone else left. And it's falling hard, GG BK mod.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I agree with MarKr... Nice idea!

@Dweller; I am probably for the first time dealing with Warhawks and I think I made a good deal that doesn't harm balance at all.

[V13dweller]

There is more than just this stopping me upgrading, many things are at play, and since we all operate as a group we all need to agree to update, which we don't.

[Cyberzombie]

This will become a long post^^
I just try to say all i want to say.

Let´s start with the last posts.

Ever heard of Secured Resourcing? If an RE player does it, you can get over +40 from one fuel point!!! Seriously, whenever I play allied, someone on my team goes RE and does that and fuel is not an issue. All RE truck with the upgrade can produce more than an OP can do, just put them on fuel and it's fine, massive fuel income.

So you want to tell me that one of my mates has to take RE in order to get huge fuel boosts?
In 2vs2: if one takes RE it would be insane if the other one took armor doc
3vs3/4vs4: RE is nearly never used because you need one infantry doc, one tank doc and one artillery doc
All experienced players go for armor doc instead of RE and they have their reasons...

@MarKr: your idea sounds good but I am more in favor of the suggested changes for the following reasons.

@Wolf: I really don´t see why you refuse to try those changes. If those changes are too OP or they change nothing or WWIII happens you just can switch back.
Give it a try and fine! What do you have to loose? Of course it´s some work but it might be worth it...
And since you don´t believe what warhawks said I can only repeat what he said and hope you will get the point.
Current situation:
- axis able to get especially Tank IV very early and in masses
- only chance to counter that spam is masses of paks (vulnerable to inf and mortars) or armor doc with Jumbo
- first tank of armor doc ist most of the time m4 sherman to stop the masses of inf and second is Jumb just because it´s the only unit capable of fighting those early tanks and to go offensive (btw Jumbo often has problems with tankIV but can kill panthers easily...)
- every other tank buildable by armor doc is either too expensive in early to mid game, just useless or too late
m4: is a must because it´s the only tank capable of fighting inf (need for sandbags upgrade otherwise 2 schrecks and its gone)
76w: waste of ressources since it can´t defend itself against inf nor can it reliable take out other tanks (only sometimes with expensive HVAP)
E8: i really like this tank but i never build it unless the game is already over and i just waste my last ressources. It simply comes way to late and is useless against heavies which dominate the battlefield at that time
hellcat: very fragile but also dangerous (why the fuck does it soak up 5fuel per minute???) only good for defensive and often destroyed by rushing AT teams. This is most of the time the third tank i build but since my fuel income drops by 5 this tank is really expensive in the long run
Jackson: Reliable gun, but also comes very late in only in very few numbers in a whole game since this unit costs a lot fuel (don´t get me wrong the price is nearly ok but armor doc hardly ever has enough fuel) and nearly all WE players rush thi tank only with AT squads
pershing: very expensive and easily killed by schrecks.
pershing ace: Actually I only used this unit because it doesnßt cost fuel, had double-shot ability and it was able to kill heavis.
Now this tank needs some kills in order to get that needed ability but you will hardly ever engage an enemy tank because most of the time only WE AT squads will hunt it over the whole map
Jumbo: "early" available and the last hope to fight of the early medium tanks and go into offensive cause it´s the only tank that can take some hits of a pak40. All other tanks are only used for as defensive till Jumbo arrives. And this unit has the same problems that all 76mm guns have.

When I play armor I have basically 3, max 5 tanks: 1/2 m4s, 1/2 hellcats, 1 Jumbo
fuel income drop by 15? or more?
All of those tanks (except Jumbo) are only defensive while I spare some fuel to get some upgrades from supply yard which might theoretically be optional but in order to stay competetive a must!
I have to upgrade those 2 fuel upgrades. I have to upgrade at least the first sandbag upgrade in order to make my m4s more sturdy because I need them till late game. In order to not run out of mp i also should upgrade the first supply yard upgrade. And on top of that I have to spend even more fuel in tank factory only to make these "optional" upgrades possible.
At that time I might have lost some tanks so I constantly have to rebuild some and consider very carefully which tank I even can rebuild.
Now the axis side: early game -> get some tank IV and attack! Not enough fuel? No problem we have res trade lol
So a simple question: WHY?
Why do I have to think about every choice i make but as axis I just build units and replace them if they are gone?
Why are axis better capable of spamming than the "spam"-fraction US?

I often play BK doc and it´s just ridiculous to field one Tank IV after the other while US armor doc just got their first m4.
I can field so many Tigers without a problem and the armor doc struggles to field only some shermans...

And another problem is simply the fact that armor doc relies on its tanks.
Take axis as example:
They have very good inf and very usefull tanks in nearly every doc Armor doc only has shermans and maybe some inf which is shred to peaces when facing elite axis units. I mean as BK doc i can go for very strong infantery if I lack on fuel, as armor doc I only rely on Jumbo call-ins and some inf trying to cover that Jumbo.

So as an experienced 2vs2/3vs3/4vs4 player that plays every faction in bk with every doc I tell you pls try those fixes out.
And pls listen to what experienced players see in their games. We wouldn´t complain if there weren´t so huge balance issues at the moment. I loved to play armor doc but now it´s all about jumbos and SP,s.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

@Wolf

Look, if axis are pushing hard you need tanks, you buy 2 hellcats and call jumbo = -15 fuel income = you stucked at this position, cant produce more tanks because no fuel income, and cant buy supply yard upgrades, because 3 tanks ate all your fuel income. So, you are trying to collect 65 fuel for second tank depot upgrade and call SP, because you have no more options (if game is active).

Vfa is god damn right.

@Vlad
Let me tell you a secret man, royal engs res buff reflecting only a guy who play it, for all your teammates res income from territories with trucks will be exactly the same. Brits res income upgrade in HQ or inf truck - also reflectls only on a player who bought it. Thats why your statement is just silly and funny "one of my teammates goes RE and i swim in fuel" no, you are not, you have 0 profit from it, althogh RE player will have much fuel. The one and only way to buff fuel for Armor doc player is to drop resourse with airborne observation team, thats all.

im offski.

[Warhawks97]

@ dweller... Huh, people still use RE in 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4....Its a never played doc because you need US armor for shermans and jumbo, AB doc help dealing with axis inf, CW arty doc is a must and then people go rather inf or RAF instead RE which just camps-

Also you made a good joke btw. The truck income upgrades and RE truck upgrade is ONLY for this single player. The team doesnt get a benefit of the truck upgrade (the one you can upgrade for 250/35)..... just sayin if you didnt know


just had a game: I had 1200 fuel collected and enemie 2500 but still i could build almost as many tigers and Panthers as he could build shermans and hellcats. I used only one call in, he used at least 5 call ins. So US armor doc with 2500 fuel builds as many tanks as axis do with 1200 fuel. Its a little bit off.

@Markr: i also though about it but as said sandbags are a must to compete anyhow with enemie armor. A sandbaged sherman is still more vulnerable to 50 mm paks, schrecks and stuff as a tank IV without skirts is against zooks and 57 mm paks. Also many axis tanks have skirts by default. Since axis have in general longer life expectation they will pay less on long term for skirts as US for sandbags. As i said. Try to make the upgrades supporting quality gameplay and not hurting those. I think vcoh is actualy a nice sample. There BAR´s cost 200/60 which is very expensive but on long term much cheaper as every rifle squad has 2 BARs then by default as axis which have to pay always 75 ammo.


Basically there are two kinds of upgrades. Those which support playing with less units but those therefore stronger. Sample here is PE: there upgrades do focus to boost the few inf squads PE has.

On US it should support quantity: e.g smoke screen or sticky: Using just one tank would make it very expensive with upgrade. But on long term this upgrade could support quantity gameplay as each use would cost less. Similiar with skirts and sandbags. Skrits alone rather cheap but for many tanks rather expensive but axis should play with less tanks. Sandbags once expensive but therefore cost effective when many tanks get build. Prob is that armor doc never builds many shermans and the fuel cost of sandbags do not contribute to get more shermans to make sandbags cost effective. Right now it would make really more sense to have sandbags for each sherman as there are just a few build. But when this got fixed and more shermans build it could be OK except fuel cost.


Ive got a wanring post from you but Tiger told me that you didnt or it was kind of auto warning. idk.

[V13dweller]

You win, I don't care anymore, I retract all prior statements.

I am not going continue posting here.

You and your crew can change the mod however you want, I am no longer in opposition as I simply do not care, my mates and I will stick with our community, you can stick with yours.

So, I am basically resigning from this is specific forum. I may stop by every now and then, but not on a regular basis, but I won't post.



How does it feel now there you are un-opppsed in this subject? Pretty good I bet, now that the game will turn out like you envisioned, a Utopia I might say.
Congratulations on your victory, enjoy your One-Party State.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Dwell; What are ur suggestions then???!!! Do u think that those requested changes are made or authored by Hawks alone??!! Do u know for how long time did we (Me and him with others) discuss in order to finally bring out those demands??!! They weren't cooked just after a while of thinking... We took hours in a try to balance it out more as supposed without being so rough with it as we always tried to make sure for those changes not to become anyhow difficult to achieve. They can just switch it back if or when players ever discover any massive balancing issues with it!!! But I am sure they will like it! I don't get why u r playing specifically v4.81??!! Do u know that actually v4.85 is probably similar to that version which u r sticking on??!! It would be more logic if u tell me that u like the old versions of v4.7/6x more than the current versions... Because as I said all the versions of 4.8x are actually almost similar to each other somehow.
So please stop telling or repeating this sentence "Hawks and his crews" as I find it one way or another offensive and stupid honestly!
Because we are so different players each with his own tactics and favors if u not know that..

Guys, I do have an idea as that through out my private discussions with Wolf I actually discovered out that he loves the Pershing Ace somewhat Well, it sounds somehow a very weird idea but I think it won't hurt so much... What if the Pershing Ace stays and not to get removed while not to become a main tank as well but to be moved or remained on the customize army list in a replace of the.. the... Jumbo!!?? xD Not joking btw! ^^

@Wolf; I think they have listed u all the reasons.. but again u once asked me why the Pershing tank will gain +3 more upkeep, well... That wasn't a stray as we very well realize why! Again I tell u; the Pershing tank is going to be cheaper than the Tiger while it's in fact a medium tank which is nearly on the same cost stage of Panthers! While the Tiger upkeep cost will become +7 as total but more expensive than the Pershing which will have upkeep of +8 as total but it's more cheaper than the Tiger!!! Also the Pershing will have to eat some of the US player resources before it dies fast as usually as he is already going to have plenty of fuel income only when after our upkeep and upgrade fixes are made exactly as we ordered... As that the US player tanks will become more reliable and cheaper to be fielded such as the Jackson.. and this will not force him to as currently stick defensively only with few tanks such as the Jumbos and the SP against the Axis Tigers and Panthers continuous spam, I mean It would be more fun if the US Armor doc player is somehow able to counter that spam of Tigers with Hs or Panthers more possibly by Shermans, Hellcats and Jacksons than to use the SP as it should be delayed to be only available there more late in order to counter the big fat cats of Axis like the JTs, the Elephants or the KTs! And btw, The Pershing tank shouldn't be and actually even wasn't much time used by the Allies as it was a late war tank that required as much fuel as the Tiger or even more although some sources regard it just as a medium tank.
Shermans should be widely used more aggressively.... That's it!

I would also suggest to add one more demand:-
17) Current Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.E Stubby - 460 MP/50 Fuel (Terror Only) cost to be reduced to 400/35 since Terror has no trades or any mass production abilities unlike Blitz doc!!
And current Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.F2 - 500 MP/70 Fuel (Terror Only) cost to be reduced to 430/50 for the same reason!!!

[MarKr]

Guys, I do have an idea as that through out my private discussions with Wolf I actually discovered out that he loves the Pershing Ace somewhat Well, it sounds somehow a very weird idea but I think it won't hurt so much... What if the Pershing Ace stays and not to get removed while not to become a main tank as well but to be moved or remained on the customize army list in a replace of the.. the... Jumbo!!?? xD Not joking btw! ^^

So you will have PAce and SP call-ins both available at the same time? Really guys I don't understand all this fuss around PAce. You say that SP is a total must for Armor doctrine. OK, if you are right then just select SP in the reward menu and don't use PAce. If there is someone who prefers PAce why should we take that unit away from them? I mean from what I could gather from your reasons to remove PAce it actually is "Because it is redundant now when it doesn't come with double shot ability". That means that all redundant units should be removed? That would mean we could kick out several reward units for CW:
Wasp - nobody uses it as its flamethrower is somewhat weak
Daimler (gets replaced by Recce) - like seriously who uses it? It is sliiightly cheaper than Bren carrier, is also only armed with Bren lmg (another BB gun) so it doesn't excel in killing infantry either. It only provides binocular ability but generaly talking, CW has Binocular available through other units so no real need.
Tetrarch - not really very effective since they get pwned by AT weapons, but tbh I don't if people use it more than the normal one.
...
And so on. So that's my opinion - if you don't want to use it then don't but why to remove it just because the other variant seems better?

[Krieger Blitzer]

That latest suggestion about the PAce which is offered or introduced only by me was just a try to solve not to demand with removing it! Yes, it will be on the customize army list instead of the Jumbo with its same high cost! And so.. it's the player choice as he will have to make a decision between to have a stronger tank with a more powerful gun but also with a much more expensive cost as well or to have a cheaper tank instead which is the Jumbo. Was just an idea, don't consider it so serious!
I don't know if we can keep the PAce as it is or not. Because as u know the SP delaying will become a must after when the latest upkeep and upgrades fixes are occurred. While I am not sure if it's possible anyhow to delay the icon of the SP doc item with 2 CPs while at the same time not to delay the PAce icon or item at the same doc if it's selected, u got my point?! Unless this is somehow possible.. we can keep the PAce for sure! Why not??!! But only once and Vet2! Or even as it is... No matter I think!!!

Edit 1:- I mean that the Pershing Ace can stay but it will be also delayed with 2 CPs as well if when the SP is anytime delayed as it would be a must to delay it for the reason I mentioned above... As u surely know both the SP and the PAce have the same doc items or icons sadly, do u understand??!! That was the main reason of demanding to removing it by me btw!
Maybe a great cost reduction for the PAce is acceptable then in a result of delaying it as well as delaying the SP... While for it to become Vet2 only once like the Tiger Ace and the Churchill Ace Vet0 and available for infinite times but only a single one at a time like the Jumbo for sure!

Edit 2:- Or I do have an even better idea that all of this!!! What about if we delay the SP not by touching its item on the doc at all but instead we can delay it by delaying the icon of the normal Pershings by 2!! This way SP and PAce can also both stay but SP by 200 MP cheaper indeed as we ordered yet.
Edit 3:- Ehm, sounds not a good idea Same result lol!

Edit 4:- Wolf and MarKr, is it possible to delay the icon of the PAce or SP call ins of the doc when the SP is selected on the customize but not to delay the same icon when the PAce is selected??!! If yes then we just solved this. I need an answer!

[Butterkeks]

I'm doing just a very small post as I'm really in a hurry:

I really support every of these Balance suggestions, except for PAve as reward unit for Jumbo.
(Sorry this is complete bs, now you again have nothing vs. Medium Tanks)

Please Wolf, I also very appreciate the hard work you'rr doing on this mod, but please listen to your fans who play it nearly on a daily base! These suggestions don't come out of nowhere! Tjere is a good reason behind every Single one of them!
(Sorry for short post that contributes nearly nothing to the discussion, as I said, I'm in a hurry^^)

[Wolf]

- US Decreased HVSS price from 35 fuel to 25 fuel
- US First supply yard upgrade reduced fuel cost by 25
- US Second supply yard upgrade reduced MP price by 150 MP
- US Second supply yard fuel upgrade reduced fuel price by 15 and doesn't require tank depot upgrade
- US Supply yard fuel upkeep reducement can now be upgraded if both upkeep reducing upgrades were completed OR if both fuel upgrades were completed
- US Supply yard fuel upkeep reducement fuel price reduced by 15
- US Increased fuel upkeep reduction in supply yard from 25% to 33%
- WH Fuel trade price increased from 100 munnition to 125 munnition, increased recharge time by 90
- PE Fuel trade price increased from 100 munnition to 125 munnition, increased recharge time by 90

This is what will be done to supply yard and fuel generally. I don't even want to look what it was in 4.7, however if you will act like this is "not enough" and "is unplayable" etc. I will gladly move it to 4.7 values, because you really really angered me on that topic. Supply yard is eseential strategic part of the US game. This whole anti supply yard crusade which warhawks started months ago has to end, this is the moment, these are the LAST changes that will be made to it.
Sadly you turned something that is not mandatory into mandatory. While I understand, that in some of your 4vs4 battles you are lacking fuel, it depends on map HIGHLY. Saying stuff like it won't affect 2vs2 etc. is just bullshit to excuse that you want some changes and trying to fool me, that it won't change a thing in "my" games. Same with "PAce is redundant, not needed, only built for double shots, without SP the game is unplayable". That behaviour is foolish, only trying to manipulate the truth to force changes. Any kind of arguing like that does exactly the opposite of what you are trying, it certainly is not convincing me to do anything in said matter. Arguments in manner of "we play it this way and its the only way, without this and that it cannot be done", will just not be tolerated.
Hellcat upkeep is not 5. PzIV upkeep is not 2 and Jumbo upkeep is not 5 either. Repeating something doesn't make it truth. Increasing upkeep of E8 or Pershing for example would be foolish even if I agreed with proposed changes, these upkeep numbers are just made up without any logic. That said, it doesn't mean, there won't be changes in upkeeps.

Some of the other changes will be in next patch, some will not.

[Warhawks97]

sure its dependent a bit on map but you must be honest that only Autry has high fuel points at all. All other have only medium points (except 1 vs 1 which have surprisingly a log of fuel sometimes). And what i meant is that the second supply yard has no positive effect on 2 vs 2 games. It would have to last several ours.


Onther question: "OR if both fuel upgrades were completed". Inf and AB have only one. Nothing important but just saying. Also esspecially the upkeep reducing upgrades or all upgrades that work on long term shouldnt require so much stuff at all. Its a contradiction that such upgrades and boosts coming so late. 2 vs 2 games in particular often end before supply yard is build or upgraded. Also since axis can get a nice number of Tank IV´s pretty early and often before supply yard is up it would make more sense if the supply yard is at least buildable eariler to compete with axis upkeep when Tank IV´s and Hetzers are already coming.

Also axis terror and luft doc often stay with two buildings and starting fielding larger number of infantry units. To compete then with US inf as Inf doc player and AB player a supply yard is neccessary. It would help esspecially inf doc if they would not be forced to tier up so far so fast to be able to counter axis Grens and luft inf that comes when those docs have just 2 or three buildings up. I think a more independent supply yard would be more effective and better for gameplay as players would have more individual options when to build and upgrade which stuff.



And why i started the supply yard discussion: First i had to find out what it actually boosts and how. The i saw the income disbalance of like 500 mp in a 15 min. I also tried to find out why i could get so fast so many tank IVs going straight for attack while i cant do something with allied. It took simply some time to study that supply yard and the effect on games etc. Also half year ago ive been playing a lot of vcoh and there i first saw which helpfull impact it has there (where it is also available after first buidling btw) and i first realized how ineffective and gameplay breaking it is for US early and mid game which then brings US in a inferior position in late game. Its simply true that US can do either tanks or supply yard but not booth. If US builds tanks in mid game to counter axis Tank IV´s US cant upgrade supply yard and thus late game is damn hard. Other option is to upgrade first supply yard but having no tanks really during entire mid game but therefor late game is a bit easier.

You actually just need to make sure that US can start building tanks at time axis can do Tank IV´s in about equal numbers but being also able to upgrade the supply yard to be prepared for late game. And thats currently not possible and armor player needs to make a decision if he wants to be effective in mid game or late game.

If you manage that US have at least similiar straight forward tank production as BK and TH doc from mid-late game then its good and thats our goal actually. But i let me surprise how new cost and upkeeps will be.

The reason that persh could go up with fuel upkeep is what tiger basically said. Mostly a pershing is worth two e8 and also when a pershing is fielded less shermans are build. So having either 2 HE shermans and 2 E8 or 2 HE shermans and 1 pershing should be similiar in upkeep. That way quantity gameplay may becomes more appealing instead rushing straight for pershings as they are used to with tigers when playing axis. And its cheaper as Tiger but basically able to beat those so i think + 2 upkeep for pershing wouldnt hurt much (and wouldnt be unrealistic as well btw.)


about PAce.... keep it as it as if you want.

The 2nd and 3rd supply yard cost could cost 35 for second and 30 for third (currently 50 and 65 and suggested was 20 and 25 from us. (Lets met us in the middle and we all could go home satisfied). Reason is that US armor had massive fuel issues when compared to axis and CW. So massive changes wouldnt hurt. Those are still "small" changes which i doubt would really help to get US armor doc finally into a real quantity faction.


Edit: When i check this out the supply yard cost are reduced by 30 in total.... Ok HVSS-10 but still. All Armor players that are playing actially daily BK with axis and allis armor can agree that the fuel issues are "large" for armor doc and many upgrades not cost effective but changes are rather small and hardly noticable. When there is a large issue then it basically cant be solved with small carefull changes. Sometimes radical steps need to be done. I actually appreciate that you are carefully with changes but sometimes its not the best way. Markr did say that he has no real experience in pvp games and no ideas for balance. So sometimes you simply must do trust to those guys which are daily playing this game on different maps which all kind of settings.
I mean just have a look. Actually every player who plays armor doc frequently did agree at least with suggested supply yard cost and the gamebreaking effect on US and esspecially US armor during a large part of a game. They agreed in steam in private messages or here in forum.

And you said i calculate too much. Well supply yard is all about numbers. Cost, boost, time. And 280 fuel (225 after your accpepted changes) is almost that other factions entire tier ups or equal to those. Means supply yard are all extra fuel cost that are as high as the entire tier up cost of all other factions but at the same time neccessary for US in late game while normal tier up cost are also equal to others.

Maybe dont follow exactly the communities suggestions but you could get a bit closer to those. Like 30 instead 40 to build, 35 or 30 for second upgrade instead 50 and like 35 for third instead 65.

This way the avaialble fuel for tanks in early-mid game would be enough to get tanks to counter Tank IV´s but also to upgrade supply yard to be suited for late game.