Clear demands.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So we have these demands which are only about unit costs and availability as me, Warhawks, Erich and Keks finally are completely agreeing on:- I wish if others also agree on with it! And I also hope if Devs pay attention to them...

1) Tiger tank cost to become 1000/175 for Blitz doc instead of currently 900/155.. and 950/170 for Terror doc by +2 fuel upkeep increase for both versions.

2) JPzs IV/L70 to become 600/100 instead of 580/80 currently while with TH doc reduction it should become 540/85 as cost.

3) Comets to become 550/90 instead of current 650/100.

4) JP to become 1000/180 instead of 800/160 currently and with TH doc reduction it should become 900/170.

5) Both Jacksons cost to become 650/90 instead of 700/110 currently.

6) Nashorn to become 500/70 instead of 580/80 currently.

7) SP to become 1800 MP instead of current 2000 MP while with 2 CPs to be delayed and only once available plus increasing its upkeep by +1 and to totally remove PAce.

8) M10 MP cost to be reduced by 30 and Panther G cost to be reduced by 10 fuel.

9) E8, Panzer4 IVH/J, JP and Panther upkeep to increase by +1.
While KT upkeep to be increased by +2.
And Hellcat upkeep to be down or decreased by -1.
JT upkeep to increase by +2.
Normal Pershing upkeep to increase by +3.
Churchill ace upkeep to be increased as well by +2.
Murder, Grille and Cromwell Command Tank upkeep to be increased from 0 to +1.

10) Tiger Ace only once and Vet2.

11) HVSS upgrade of E8 cost to be reduced by 10 fuel.

12) Sand Bag upgrades should cost no fuel at all but only 300 MP for each.

13) Supply Yard;
Build cost: to be reduced from 150/40 to 100/20 and independent from all other buildings to be built anytime.
1st upgrade cost reduction from 150/50 to 100/20.
2nd upgrade cost reduction from 300/50 to 100/20.
3rd upgrade cost reduction from 150/65 to 150/25.

14) The first fuel boost should be reduced from 75/50 to 50/20.
While the second fuel boost of Armor doc should be reduced from 150/50 to 75/40.

15) Hellcats to be available with all US docs as unlocks only while Wolverine as a standard tank if somehow possible.

16) Jumbo tank cost increase by 100 MP.

[MarKr]

What happened with all that "SP is a bullshit that was never used in combat during WW2 and should be removed and only keep th PAce!" - I can remember hearing that quite often from many different people and now it's the other way around? Also why to remove the PAce? If you don't wish to use it, just choose SP.

[Krieger Blitzer]

PAce is nothing but a normal Pershing and so it's just pointless... Tiger Ace is extracted from the idea of Wittmann and many other legendary Tiger tank crews. SP is important and it will be there later only once for balance reasons to fight against the JTs and the Elephants!

[Warhawks97]

PAce is nothing but a normal Pershing and so it's just pointless... Tiger Ace is extracted from the idea of Wittmann and many other legendary Tiger tank crews. SP is important and it will be there later only once for balance reasons to fight against the JTs and the Elephants!

Thats the point. In old version the persh ace with double shot ability encountered elephant etc. The current persh ace is actually nothing more than standard pershing except vet 3 commander. Armor doc upgrades tanks to vet 1 anyway so persh ace has no balance reason anymore. The SP became standard late game elite US Tank.


But one mistake:

1st fuel boost cost currently 75/25 and should cost as you suggested 50/20.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Emm, i agree with supply yard upgrades price reduction, but....what sense in all other price changes? No persh ace? 1 tiger ace? Its stupid gameplay reduction, exacly what i hated in all last updates ( limiting, removing, nerfing, reducing ). All this shit is just leads to new problems, have you ever asked yourself why suddenly wh at team became op, though people didnt complain at it for years? Or why suddenly masses of early pz4 became pure death for alies? I dont want to write a wall of text here, just a few thing to prove how little changes ( though, if you look directly to them, they were logical and good....in theory ) leaded to a new problems
-M8 Scott huge nerf and bams, immortal at teams are here, in old times any attemt to go for "searching a hiden something" would have ended by one shot all 4 men by Scott, or when commando with enfields had a sniper in squad, at teams couldnt just walk arround.
- Recoiless huge nerf ( though i personally asked fot it ,but before update 3 hits were enough to destroy pz 4 in 95% cases, now it needs at least 8-10 hits, that sucks, there is no need in such a huge nerfs, on old forum i told wolf that its a strange balancing politics " unit is op? lets make a complete shit from it!" and bams, early pz4 is stopable only by jumbo or paks spam.
- KCH - was a unique unit, powerfull, limited to 2, so it wasnt reliable in late game when airborne, raf or inf having 8+ elite squads. In early-mid game 2 snipers were enough to stop this heroes, + many many exp and vet steps for killing them. All was fun, to play with or vs them, doesnt matter. They were removed and bams swarms of early grens with mp44 and fire nades, which are eating all early alied inf alive and the only unit which is comparable - 101s with 240 ammo investment to their mgs.
- commando smoke removed and inf doc arty limitation, bams, they only true doctrine for cracking enemie defence is CW arty.
- huge stupa nerf, bams, nobody use it, always grille on field.
- aces vet reducing, well, i think it was more sense in adding fuel price for their call in, not only mp. Persh ace vet 1 with tc vet 2, unlock veted crews in tech tree, place your tc near tank depot right at the moment when persh comes from it, look, what did you get? Ye, lvl 2 tc and lvl 1 persh, exactly the same as persh ace.
- all know that big fail with TH doc rework

and i can continue for a long time.

As i already said, i like 4.6-4.7 recent experince much more, more powerfull units, more agressive games, more different game situations. But i still like bk, even current version, just decided not to take part in balancing war on forum anymore, its a worthless endless argueing which finally leads only to fun gameplay damage. And ye, i respect the work of Mark and Wolf, but sadly its hard to predict how even small change will reflect to gameplay, especially if you never play big bk games ( at least i never seen them there ), there were good things for sure, but mostly all unit changin values made game less fun.

I think this is my last word in balancing and suggestion folder.

[Warhawks97]

Emm, i agree with supply yard upgrades price reduction, but....what sense in all other price changes? No persh ace? 1 tiger ace? Its stupid gameplay reduction, exacly what i hated in all last updates ( limiting, removing, nerfing, reducing ). All this shit is just leads to new problems, have you ever asked yourself why suddenly wh at team became op, though people didnt complain at it for years? Or why suddenly masses of early pz4 became pure death for alies? I dont want to write a wall of text here, just a few thing to prove how little changes ( though, if you look directly to them, they were logical and good....in theory ) leaded to a new problems
-M8 Scott huge nerf and bams, immortal at teams are here, in old times any attemt to go for "searching a hiden something" would have ended by one shot all 4 men by Scott, or when commando with enfields had a sniper in squad, at teams couldnt just walk arround.
- Recoiless huge nerf ( though i personally ask fot it but, before update 3 hits were enough to destroy pz 4 in 95 cases, now it needs at least 8-10 hits, that sucks, there is no need in such a huge nerfs, on old forum i told wolf that its a strange balancing politics " unit is op? lets make a complete shit from it!" and bams, early pz4 is stopable only by jumbo or paks spam.
- KCH - was a unique unit, powerfull, limited to 2, so it wasnt reliable in late game when airborne, raf or inf having 8+ elite squads. In early-mid game 2 snipers were enough to stop this heroes, + many many exp and vet steps for killing them. All was fun, to play with or vs them, doesnt matter. They were removed and bams swarms of early grens with mp44 and fire nades, which are eating all early alied inf alive and the only unit which is comparable - 101s with 240 ammo investment to their mgs.
- commando smoke removed and inf doc arty limitation, bams, they only true doctrine for cracking enemie defence is CW arty.
- huge stupa nerf, bams, nobody use it, always grille on field.
- aces vet reducing, well, i think it was more sense in adding fuel price for their call in, not only mp. Persh ace vet 1 with tc vet 2, unlock veted crews in tech tree, place your tc near tank depot right at the moment when persh comes from it, look, what did you get? Ye, lvl 2 tc and lvl 1 persh, exactly the same as persh ace.
- all know that big fail with TH doc rework

and i can continue for a long time.

As i already said, i like 4.6-4.7 recent experince much more, more powerfull units, more agressive games, more different game situations. But i still like bk, even current version, just decided not to take part in balancing war on forum anymore, its a worthless endless argueing which finally leads only to fun gameplay damage. And ye, i respect the work of Mark and Wolf, but sadly its hard to predict how even small change will reflect to gameplay, especially if you never play big bk games ( at least i never seen them there ), there were good things for sure, but mostly all unit changin values made game less fun.

I think this is my last word in balancing and suggestion folder.

-Persh ace removal is because there is little sense anymore. I thought you wouldnt mind when you wrote me Persh ace is nothing else as standard pershing in armor doc. But if you want.

-WE at squad is simply OP that got encountered by former OP scott. PE and US and CW at squads are well counterable with tank MG´s so why not same for WE at squad?. Scott is overpriced after the nerfs.

-KCH removal is good. Now we need to make Rifles more appealing and some tweaks to allied rifles and the early Grens with stg and fire nades wont be so dominating anymore.

- Commando units could use build cost drop and/or a bit stronger at the beginning. They cant beat volks with mp40 in early game atm which is stupid. Arty limitation wasnt a smart move for sure. Esspecially lighter arty that could break up early camping.

- weaker RL could be balanced when all US docs would have Hellcat and more fuel for more tanks.

- Stupa needs new doc. Def doc provides not the best support. Give it as reward to stuh for BK doc and def will stay happy with grille,

-TH doc change was made by xali and was an epic fail... we all know that. It was pointless and did hurt the quantity/quality balance massively. But thats not Wolfs fault.

-Thing with ace vet removal was because there was little sense to build other tanks. All waited for aces and once called they dominated the field and survived long enough usually to be instantly replaced once lost.


Edit: Ive made some calculations with new suggested supply yard cost regarding to this topic http://blitzkrieg-mod.de/board/topic/4895-the-us-spam/

with removal of sandbag fuel cost the total fuel investment for everything would be 425 fuel. Thats 35,42% of a assumed total income of 1200 fuel after 1 hour game on most 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 maps. Seems OK as axis are still slightly below + res trade and as they can stand against enemie armor with inf better as allied can.


Wolf dont need to be scared that it has any negative balance impacts on 2 vs 2. On 2 vs 2 games the armies are seldomly larger than 40-60 pocap and with suggested 225 popcap the armies are usually not larger than 100 popcap. The second supply yard upgrade for 300/50 boosts the mp income by 9 when having a 100 popcap army (tested today). So currently everything after first upgrade is not used in wolfs suggested settings and if with new cost it wouldnt have negative or positive balancing impacts. In 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 250- 999 popcap the US needs all upgrades cheaper. The possible new spam capabilites are neccessary and not unstopable.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Sukin; I wish if we didn't disappoint u by posting these demands but also I wish if u not disappoint us by denying those changes please! Let's see how they are going to work or more balance it out when are achieved... ^^ I could have listed more but I always cared and kept on my mind not to touch weapon values or to ask for any doctrines rework jobs as I very well realize that Wolf and MarKr actually can't do everything!!! As u can see they are just simple and not massive changes anyway..

[MarKr]

And ye, i respect the work of Mark and Wolf, but sadly its hard to predict how even small change will reflect to gameplay, especially if you never play big bk games ( at least i never seen them there )

I said this to Warhawks and I can tell it here too - I confess that I'm a total, utter, proud noob and any team I would be in would be in strong disadvantage.
Before anyone starts posting comments such as "Oh, thats just great, someone who has no experience with the actual PVP is patching this game...just f*ck off!" - note that I only help with changes - Wolf asks me if I could take a look at some glitch or bug and I do. I either find out whats wrong and offer a fix or don't find out and...well if you don't know where is the problem you cannot fix it . Anway I, as I said many times, I don't maky any decisions. If I have an idea about some change or something I can propose it but my proposition carries no more weight than any of yours, guys.
So there you go - confession made, no more room for rumors or guessing or gossip

As for Wolf - I cannot talk for others so you have to ask him .

Anyway:

- Stupa needs new doc. Def doc provides not the best support. Give it as reward to stuh for BK doc and def will stay happy with grille,

I kinda like this idea

3) Comets to become 550/90 instead of current 650/100.

Iirc Warhawks once suggested that Comets come too late to be used effectively. It might work to swap Comet unlock and Sherman call-in in the Command tree...just a thought.

[Warhawks97]

3) Comets to become 550/90 instead of current 650/100.

Iirc Warhawks once suggested that Comets come too late to be used effectively. It might work to swap Comet unlock and Sherman call-in in the Command tree...just a thought.

That would be good as well. As i am thinking the comets had been cool units and somehow cost effective when axis docs cost more. It lost effectivness and esspecially cost effectivness due to axis tank reduction and TH spam. Maybe we can stay here with cost at first when axis tanks become more expensive with less TH spam. Tough a drop to at least 600 and 90 fuel would really not hurt. They can be fast but no ambush and can deal just one tank at once. The IV/70 at the other side as massive panther gun with very low incoming accuracy and good armor and can deal with several enemie tanks at once at the same time and 2x ambush shot. So Comet is different as IV/70 but not "better" or more dangerous.


edit: SE tec tree as we just talked about comet unlock swap: make Beutesherman and Tank IV in one unlock line and Nashorn and Hetzer independent. Its just a pain as SE to unlock stupid Tank IV and sherman when a Nashorn is needed. So make hetzer and Nashorn independent pls:)

Also would anyone mind if the arty churchill unlock would swap with MK VI? When RE player needs AT he just goes for Achilles or cheaper emplacments. When he wants to go into offense he needs arty churchill. Its thus pointless to unlock The MK VI before arty churchill.

[Wolf]

While I don't like it being called demands... it sounds weird, but whatever, I will answer, as its better than to answer all these separate topics.

1) Tiger tank cost to become 1000/175 for Blitz doc instead of 900/150.. and 950/170 for Terror doc by +2 fuel upkeep increase for both versions.
- The price decrease was not only to even the strength, but also to make Tiger appear more in games. I therefore don't agree with price increases, if some, then probably not fuel+mp, upkeep maybe.

2) JPzs IV/L70 to become 600/100 instead of 580/80 currently while with TH doc reduction it should become 540/85 as cost.
- Can be..

3) Comets to become 550/90 instead of current 650/100.
- I agree that this tank comes rather late than expensive, we will think about that rather than price change

4) JP to become 1000/180 instead of 800/160 currently and with TH doc reduction it should become 900/170.
- Yeah, agreed there, JP is performing way more than well for such cost

5) Both Jacksons cost to become 650/90 instead of 700/110 currently.
- I am a bit afraid of that reduce here, that Jackson will be even more appealing than Pershing (then now), 700/100 would maybe do

6) Nashorn to become 500/70 instead of 580/80 currently.
- No opinion on that atm. Could probably do.

7) SP to become 1800 MP instead of current 2000 MP while with 2 CPs to be delayed and only once available plus increasing its upkeep by +1 and to totally remove PAce.
- Nope to totally removing PAce, SP is a bonus choice, PAce should stay primary one or atleast a choice. And there IS a difference between vetted pershing and vetted pershing ace. Other than that its also top tier tank without fuel, like in most other doctrines.

8) M10 MP cost to be reduced by 30 and Panther G cost to be reduced by 10 fuel.
- M10 needs more stable results than another decrease, but I guess whatever to both changes.

9) E8, Panzer4 IVH/J, JP and Panther upkeep to increase by +1.
While KT upkeep to be increased by +2.
And Hellcat upkeep to be down or decreased by -1.
JT upkeep to increase by +2.
Normal Pershing upkeep to increase by +3.
Churchill ace upkeep to be increased as well by +2.
Murder, Grille and Cromwell Command Tank upkeep to be increased from 0 to +1.
- About which upkeep are we talking about? Fuel? Then I don't agree with most. Not sure what do you want to achieve with higher upkeep pershings for example.

10) Tiger Ace only once and Vet2.
- No, while I would earlier probably be for it, TAce is kind of symbolic for the BK and I am not in favor of changing that. It will probably be different in CoH2, but for BK1, I am now for keeping it like it is. It can be dealt with rather large cooldown if really really needed to have one time call, but I'd keep it, same as PAce.

11) HVSS upgrade of E8 cost to be reduced by 10 fuel.
- Yeah, can be

12) Sand Bag upgrades should cost no fuel at all but only 300 MP for each.
13) Supply Yard;
Build cost: to be reduced from 150/40 to 100/20 and independent from all other buildings to be built anytime.
1st upgrade cost reduction from 150/50 to 100/20.
2nd upgrade cost reduction from 300/50 to 100/20.
3rd upgrade cost reduction from 150/65 to 150/25.
- I will take these two together and again, some of the stuff is NOT mandatory, warhawks & co. are often refering to these in "calculations". Again guys, a bit of supply yard need was shifted to early game, supply yard gives player (armor) +10 fuel without the need to have it. Also in these calculations you refer to tank fuel upkeeps as full numbers, while they are not, so its not unusual, that I see things like comparing 2 to 5, when in the end its 2,5 and 4,5 for example, and suddenly its quite different.
Sandbags are OPTIONAL equipment to sherman tanks.
One thing I wanted to change for next patch is percentage of fuel upkeep reduced by third upgrade to roughly 33%, which is STILL optional, but recommended for armor doc.
Remember, that MAIN reason for supply yard as armor doc is +10 fuel.

14) The first fuel boost should be reduced from 75/50 to 50/20.
While the second fuel boost of Armor doc should be reduced from 150/50 to 75/40.
- First fuel upgrade is 75/25 iirc and it will not be reduced.
- Second fuel upgrade is 150/50 and I am also not in favor of reducing it, however I might consider it here.

15) Hellcats to be available with all US docs as unlocks only while Wolverine as a standard tank if somehow possible.
- While I love to use hellcats, I am not really sure if they should be in all doctrines.

16) Jumbo tank cost increase by 100 MP.
- Whatever I guess.

@Stupa/scott:
People were RIGHTFULLY complaining, that these units never miss. Always hitting any unit in any cover. Thats just not something I want in game. Stupa got its buff to accuracy against emplacements and still does a lot when it hits, you just should not rely on that unit solely, like you could before. Scott is a bit redundant unit, due to M4s, I agree with that, it should be more appealing, I am considering giving it more range, but it WON'T get 100% accuracy back, just no.

[crimax]

I think there is too much meat on the BBQ ....

If this would be a friendly-general discussion, anyone can join in with his thoughts.

But, I am sure you agree that all this modifications/wishes must be done step by step only because Nobody can know the real results, nobody !

Anyway, like always, decisions must be taken by polls, the entire community must decide, no others !

Just to be clear.

[MarKr]

Remember, that MAIN reason for supply yard as armor doc is +10 fuel.

I think that these upgrades were given to the doctrine as kind of a counterpart to Axis resource trade. However these upgrades are significantely worse than the resource trade - you have to pay for them while RT is simple unlock. Also due to higher fuel upkeep of US tanks its bonus gets nulified quite quickly. As said before one Sherman eats approximately 4 units of fuel from the income. So if you buy one Sherman (which is kinda expected since you play US Armor doc) this one tank reduces the effect of the upgrade to +1 so if you have just one Sherman (which is improbable because you woud need more of them) it takes 25 minutes to pay for it self and only then it becomes somewhat beneficial.
It helps but just very very slightly.

[Warhawks97]

1.) pls... what? what helps more upkeep.... we suggested booth. 7 fuel upkeep. we did collect all common Bk and uS armor doc players and we all agree that Tiger is too spamable right now and that only SP is able to maintain a stable defense. Too bad that i havent saved all replays with Tigers spams.

5.) ok at first

9.) yes fuel upkeep... and why dou you mind? thing is that tank IV´s are too spammy without real income penalties in early game. 4 easily possible to field at once. Just follow that suggestions. Pershings should be less appealing, thats the goal and matching up with tigers in upkeep. Armor doc is all about pershings currently.

13.) why you care even? this "optionl" upgrades are a must in material wars you cant imagine. In 2 vs 2 and 3 vs 3 with 225 popcap all these upgrades doesnt play a role anyway. So you actually cant judge what is neccessary. And the second upgrade is no "optional" its always usless when playing your suggested 225 popcap style. Let us fight our material wars, change it and you would be still happy in 2 vs 2 as it wouldnt affect it. So pls do what all experienced players agree on and if there is something then its the stupid supply yard. That also helps to make shermans more appealing to get in numbers and even possible. sandbags optional you say? you cant use tanks without.... also many axis tanks have skrits by default or for cheap so.... remove at least silly fuel cost.

also i did these calculations AFTER i did the experience. I did such calculations and theories in order to explain already known issues experienced by me and many others.

Also ALL upgrades are possible just that US upgrades suck, are pointless and are just there to draw with enemies (e.g sticky. smoke, first supply yard upgrade). So why should in this case PE so many matchmaking important and really boosting upgrades for good fair cost while US needs to pay so much for shot? OK first fuel boost can stay but second must be reworked!

15.) M10 and paks as inf doc vs grens+ Panther G..... hf, really. also rl got nerfed. Stugs and marder I in def and all PE docs for 10 CP and hetzer in all PE.



stupa: new doc. scott: cheaper and no need for supply yard maybe.


@ markr: 75 fuel int total and 225 mp for + 10 fuel? and then first production upgrade to upgrade second fuel boost? so upgraded expected at min what? min 45? and then long time to wait to get back invested fuel. As i said. Wolf actually dont need to care about second fuel upgrade and 2nd and 3rd supply yard as those are pointless in 2 vs 2 games and 225 popcap games anyway.

[Wolf]

Remember, that MAIN reason for supply yard as armor doc is +10 fuel.

I think that these upgrades were given to the doctrine as kind of a counterpart to Axis resource trade. However these upgrades are significantely worse than the resource trade - you have to pay for them while RT is simple unlock. Also due to higher fuel upkeep of US tanks its bonus gets nulified quite quickly. As said before one Sherman eats approximately 4 units of fuel from the income. So if you buy one Sherman (which is kinda expected since you play US Armor doc) this one tank reduces the effect of the upgrade to +1 so if you have just one Sherman (which is improbable because you woud need more of them) it takes 25 minutes to pay for it self and only then it becomes somewhat beneficial.
It helps but just very very slightly.

But you have it, when you buy tank as axis, you have not +10, not +7, not +4, not +1, you have -X, you don't have "free source" after you buy it. Yes, its more long time benefit, like all supply yard upgrades, but it is a benefit.

[Warhawks97]

Remember, that MAIN reason for supply yard as armor doc is +10 fuel.

I think that these upgrades were given to the doctrine as kind of a counterpart to Axis resource trade. However these upgrades are significantely worse than the resource trade - you have to pay for them while RT is simple unlock. Also due to higher fuel upkeep of US tanks its bonus gets nulified quite quickly. As said before one Sherman eats approximately 4 units of fuel from the income. So if you buy one Sherman (which is kinda expected since you play US Armor doc) this one tank reduces the effect of the upgrade to +1 so if you have just one Sherman (which is improbable because you woud need more of them) it takes 25 minutes to pay for it self and only then it becomes somewhat beneficial.
It helps but just very very slightly.

But you have it, when you buy tank as axis, you have not +10, not +7, not +4, not +1, you have -X, you don't have "free source" after you buy it. Yes, its more long time benefit, like all supply yard upgrades, but it is a benefit.

? i dont get what you wanna say.... what i know is that i and actually all others have Tank IV spam in min 12 and res trade in about min 18 and then all 3 mins 75 fuel as i spare the ammo for AP and HE round upgrades which arent as important for axis as for allis..... US fuel boost upgrades as res traps as they cost too much and coming tooo late to be effective or game decisive or helping out get enough shermans when tiger and panther do appear.

and srsly... 100 popcap army which are 5 or 6 shermans, 3 rifles, engins, reccon and hmg and then 300/50 investment brings + 9 per min lmfao.... where is this a boost or even advantage? It has no balance affect in 2 vs 2 and 3 vs 3 225 popcap and in 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 250-999 pocap its a balance breaker for sure. Change it and we play balanced material wars and you have no affect on 2 vs 2 games.

[Erich]

if the price of tiger was decrease to make the tiger appear more why not do the same with jackson?

Sandbags a optional and improvements of supply yard are not mandatory? you just can be kidding.

totally necessary to stay the sherman alive against AT squads.

The upgrades of supply yard is so expensive not counting the upgrades of motor pool and tank depot.


you are not sure about the hellcats should be in all doctrines but agreed to increase the jumbo cost.

[Warhawks97]

if the price of tiger was decrease to make the tiger appear more why not do the same with jackson?

Sandbags a optional and improvements of supply yard are not mandatory? you just can be kidding.

totally necessary to stay the sherman alive against AT squads.

The upgrades of supply yard is so expensive not counting the upgrades of motor pool and tank depot.


you are not sure about the hellcats should be in all doctrines but agreed to increase the jumbo cost.

not only tiger got cheaper. Over time IV/70, JP and tiger got cheaper. Go up with JP, IV/70, Tiger and jacks may can stay even. Its afterall a fragile unit unlike IV/70 and JP.


Wolf: all known famous armor player do agree or will agree with us. Mainly metioning cyber, butter, erich, elpio, terence (who sadly doesnt come to forum) and sukin agrees also to fuel issues and suggested supply yard changes. So you stay pretty much alone against an entire community or at least those with experienced armor doc players (which tried to play with quantity and not only wiht jumbo and SP in a glory "first and last unit final stand against axis armored forces).

[Wolf]

13.) why you care even? this "optionl" upgrades are a must in material wars you cant imagine. In 2 vs 2 and 3 vs 3 with 225 popcap all these upgrades doesnt play a role anyway. So you actually cant judge what is neccessary. And the second upgrade is no "optional" its always usless when playing your suggested 225 popcap style. Let us fight our material wars, change it and you would be still happy in 2 vs 2 as it wouldnt affect it. So pls do what all experienced players agree on and if there is something then its the stupid supply yard. That also helps to make shermans more appealing to get in numbers and even possible. sandbags optional you say? you cant use tanks without.... also many axis tanks have skrits by default or for cheap so.... remove at least silly fuel cost.

At first stop telling me what to do and how it will affect 2vs2, because if I don't know about 4v4 (which is something you are trying to imply), then you don't know shit about 2vs2 - it would greatly affect these aswell. There is no reason why shouldn't. Its bloody different having less upkeep than opponent for cheap, from cheap building and whenever then having it with some price in not that cheap building and when the game progressed.
Yes, sandbags OPTIONAL I say. You can't build tanks without it? Should I really look if all values of all weapons were changed, when sandbag upgrades (boosts) were added?

[Warhawks97]

13.) why you care even? this "optionl" upgrades are a must in material wars you cant imagine. In 2 vs 2 and 3 vs 3 with 225 popcap all these upgrades doesnt play a role anyway. So you actually cant judge what is neccessary. And the second upgrade is no "optional" its always usless when playing your suggested 225 popcap style. Let us fight our material wars, change it and you would be still happy in 2 vs 2 as it wouldnt affect it. So pls do what all experienced players agree on and if there is something then its the stupid supply yard. That also helps to make shermans more appealing to get in numbers and even possible. sandbags optional you say? you cant use tanks without.... also many axis tanks have skrits by default or for cheap so.... remove at least silly fuel cost.

At first stop telling me what to do and how it will affect 2vs2, because if I don't know about 4v4 (which is something you are trying to imply), then you don't know shit about 2vs2 - it would greatly affect these aswell. There is no reason why shouldn't. Its bloody different having less upkeep than opponent for cheap, from cheap building and whenever then having it with some price in not that cheap building and when the game progressed.
Yes, sandbags OPTIONAL I say. You can't build tanks without it? Should I really look if all values of all weapons were changed, when sandbag upgrades (boosts) were added?

i have no 2 vs 2 experience..?? are you kidding me or us again? I do play 2 vs 2 again and everything after 1st supply yard upgrade is absolutely NONSENSE in 2 vs 2 and esspecially 225 popcap! Tell me what affect does it have if cost got cheaper? right now it has negative. A player spends 300/50 in a 2 vs 2 when having like 60 popcap army. Income increased by 5... AWESOME BOOST or? Lets say 100/20 in 2 vs 2 with 60 popcap army.... it still would have probably negative affect. So whats your point and where is an balance issue?

also Cyber and Butter playing endless 2 vs 2 each day so if you cant trust me you can turst them.


also if you would join our games you would simpy see how neccessary it is to have more fuel for US and not wasting all in upgrades. Axis sit usually ar abput 200 fuel regardless how many tanks they build. US mostly at 50 or less with 12 income when having 2 or 3 tanks or which are at least 1 a call in. Just watch erichs game which is an example for pretty much 99% every US armor doc game.... only SP and jumbo and one hellcat and always no fuel or income and upgrades couldnt be upgraded as tanks need to be fielded when axis get their tanks.

You cant expect from armor player to start producing tanks at min 40 when axis gets spam at min 12 and Tiger at min 20. And if you build tanks early the upkeep doesnt allow upgrading supply yard. So US is EITHER Tanks OR supply yard but never booth. Maybe after 1 hour player can have tanks and upgrades but untill that time they will face easily 15 Tigers which need to be countered by solo SP.

[Erich]

13.) why you care even? this "optionl" upgrades are a must in material wars you cant imagine. In 2 vs 2 and 3 vs 3 with 225 popcap all these upgrades doesnt play a role anyway. So you actually cant judge what is neccessary. And the second upgrade is no "optional" its always usless when playing your suggested 225 popcap style. Let us fight our material wars, change it and you would be still happy in 2 vs 2 as it wouldnt affect it. So pls do what all experienced players agree on and if there is something then its the stupid supply yard. That also helps to make shermans more appealing to get in numbers and even possible. sandbags optional you say? you cant use tanks without.... also many axis tanks have skrits by default or for cheap so.... remove at least silly fuel cost.

At first stop telling me what to do and how it will affect 2vs2, because if I don't know about 4v4 (which is something you are trying to imply), then you don't know shit about 2vs2 - it would greatly affect these aswell. There is no reason why shouldn't. Its bloody different having less upkeep than opponent for cheap, from cheap building and whenever then having it with some price in not that cheap building and when the game progressed.
Yes, sandbags OPTIONAL I say. You can't build tanks without it? Should I really look if all values of all weapons were changed, when sandbag upgrades (boosts) were added?

i can built without it but the tanks Will be horrible and will die easy so why built it?

[Wolf]

You are always assuming, that the way you play the game is the only way (or the only right way?). That is the problem.
Like you couldn't have more units, or different, more popcap demanding units etc. No, you have your calculation and thats the only right way, and it will totally not affect 2vs2 at all.

@Erich: no, they will not be horrible, you will get +10% of health. (or otherwise, you will have -10% then what you would have, if you would buy it) for shermans and second sandbags give 15% less penetration recvd (which will still not help you against any big tanks). While it can be helpful, not having it certainly doesn't make tanks horrible.

[Warhawks97]

You are always assuming, that the way you play the game is the only way (or the only right way?). That is the problem.
Like you couldn't have more units, or different, more popcap demanding units etc. No, you have your calculation and thats the only right way, and it will totally not affect 2vs2 at all.

@Erich: no, they will not be horrible, you will get +10% of health. (or otherwise, you will have -10% then what you would have).

what???? i tested all styles! i watch games on steam beta from armor doc players, i do collect replays and hell i study this game that way and did test ALL possible ways (at least with armor and BK doc). Also start realize that pretty much every player with Bk and armor doc experience is standing behind me!

stop blaming for things that are not correct. I really spend ours in steam beta, games and replays of my games and games of others and watching them several times from different perspectives! You can ask sukin and terence and others how often as request steam beta broadcast!


btw. recently 9th Airborne division joined the forum... go and ask him what statment he wrote to me in steam.

[Wolf]

Which still doesn't change a thing on "You are always assuming, that the way you play the game is the only way (or the only right way?). That is the problem.". And by saying that it will have no effect on 2vs2 you are just confirming it.

[Erich]

i'm saying the sandbags is not the best way to fight against enemy tanks only against AT squads which is the most playable unity.

Warhawks isnt saying the his play style is the right way but if you play as armor doc there is only a way to destroy the axis tanks which is with SP then no SP=you cant do nothing.

[Wolf]

Ah... okay, so the only way to play Armor doc right now is SP... seriously, I am out again I guess...