Tiger (975/170) vs jumbo (780mp)

[MEFISTO]

Hey guys it is the same thing every day, a jumbo facing a tiger and destroying a tiger, it has become in something normal here even if the tiger is The "super tiger ace" I am agree if the jumbo is able to penetrate a tiger because 76mm can penetrate it, also if the jumbo survive a tiger because it has a good armor but PLEASE or make tigers better or move the jumbo to the Armor factory and increase the price like 850mp and 120 fuel because as it is right now is a joke, tigers = weak and expensive, you are going to watch how a Jumbo penetrates mi first Tiger before get destroy by the M36 Jakson and my Tiger ace was destroyed by the Jumbo with 1 shoot tigers RIP

[Krieger Blitzer]

I don't usually post values, as I believe some Corsix values are either broken.. or that something else is wrong with some particular unit models, causing the results to be apparently different in the actual game under some certain conditions, particualrly for those individual units.

Examples;
- I believe the 75mm Jumbo somehow has much better armor than the 76mm Jumbo.
- The armor for some Panthers seem to be under-performing by a large margin compared to how their values are distributed in Corsix.
- Flak88 seem to be greatly over-performing against the Pershing tank in particular, which is again.. conflicting with some Corsix values.

Regardless...
I'm going to give you the penetration values of the 76mm Jumbo against the Tiger1, but in details.. just so you can understand how it works.

m1a1c_76mm_sherman_jumbo_gun.rgd

Penetration:
- distant = 0.54
- long = 0.67
- medium = 0.84
- short = 1

target table > tp_armor_axis_tiger > penetration multiplier = 0.41

Now, these are just core values from Corsix but in order to figure out the penetration chance vs the Tiger1 tank,
You will need to do the following:

- For distant range: (55 squares)
0.41 x 0.54 = 0.2214 (about 22%)

- For long range: (40 squares)
0.41 x 0.67 = 0.2747 (about 27%)

- For medium range: (25 squares)
0.41 x 0.84 = 0.3444 (about 34%)

- For short range: (10 squares)
0.41 x 1 = 0.41 (about 41%)

Keep in mind tho, max range of the Tiger1 is 65 and max range of the 76 Jumbo is 60 range.


If your Tiger1 was killed by 1 shot.. then it must have been a lucky hit.
Nevertheless, I agree that 76 Jumbo should cost fuel to produce...

[MarKr]

I watched it and it is another example of "buttered bread". The Jumbo fired as soon as the Tiger got in range so it was at maximum range and the shot was quite surely a frontal hit. In this case the Jumbo gun has 22.14% chance to penetrate. It deals to Tigers 400-600 damage and Tiger Ace has 1250HP. This means that upon frontal penetration Jumbo has:
- 50% chance to "only" deal damage and no other crit
- 25% chance to deal damage and damage engine
- 10% chance to deal damage and detrack the tank
- 10% chance to deal damage and destroy main gun
- 5% chance to destroy the tank immediately

Bottom line is that you needed to be unlucky enough to get the Jumbo hit the 22.14% chance to penetrate the Tiger and then further even more unlucky to get at the same time the 5% crit getting this combination is statistically (if I don't suck harder at math than I think I do) 1.1%. If you want to, we can have a test game where you can get Jumbo and keep shooting at Tiger Aces frontally all day long but I believe you'll get this result maybe once, IF you are lucky.

[MEFISTO]

I watched it and it is another example of "buttered bread". The Jumbo fired as soon as the Tiger got in range so it was at maximum range and the shot was quite surely a frontal hit. In this case the Jumbo gun has 22.14% chance to penetrate. It deals to Tigers 400-600 damage and Tiger Ace has 1250HP. This means that upon frontal penetration Jumbo has:
- 50% chance to "only" deal damage and no other crit
- 25% chance to deal damage and damage engine
- 10% chance to deal damage and detrack the tank
- 10% chance to deal damage and destroy main gun
- 5% chance to destroy the tank immediately

Bottom line is that you needed to be unlucky enough to get the Jumbo hit the 22.14% chance to penetrate the Tiger and then further even more unlucky to get at the same time the 5% crit getting this combination is statistically (if I don't suck harder at math than I think I do) 1.1%. If you want to, we can have a test game where you can get Jumbo and keep shooting at Tiger Aces frontally all day long but I believe you'll get this result maybe once, IF you are lucky.

I have played some games a few days ago and I have destroy all tigers with my Jumbos (may be I was lucky, I can test it with a friend and let you know or send you the replay, but I feel like the Jumbo has more than 50% possibilities to destroy a tiger) may be I am wrong.

[kwok]

In general, armored combat has gotten a bit gimmicky and something I think doctrine reworks will hopefully solve. I think the issue is that it's hard to balance armor doc vs blitz/terror doc where one side has tanks meant to be good all around while the otherside has tanks that have specific roles. It's like the problem with doctrine design but on a micro unit vs unit scale. The balance between tigers, shermans, pershings, etc will never be "right" because theyre all designed for different objectives. That being said, if doctrine reworks happen, units can start getting a better "shape" to how they fit into a doctrine and hopefulyl be easier to balance.

Because I agree that right now the tiger is underperforming and the jumbo is over performing. but fixing it isn't so simple. That's how I feel at least.

[SnowLeo]

I agree with MEFISTO i saw this is in my game too... And In one my game, Cherchill Croco truth when dug in, destroyed TWO tiger! And we made about 17 shots at it from an average distance! and damaged it is only 35% )))) And yesterday, JP missed standing against Achilles when they were too dug in. All the shots went by, unlike the Achilles themselves. Can I check these parameters ? And to clarify, not that it pierced, and it was missed. At the same time getting close to Achilles if he is not dug in.