Buildable Stug 4 Late Version

[MenciusMoldbug]

It's an idea I had going on in my head for a while and now I think I will organize it into a coherent thought regarding this unit and general rework of Axis Doctrines.

First, I would like to mention that Kwok's thread on 'Call Ins Cause Desyncs' proves right by my experience. Specifically call-ins that spawn multiple units at once are usually the reasons for de-syncs. I did a simple check of this by making call-in abilities that spawned a specific number of units. First one spawned 3, second spawned 6, third spawned 9. I did multiple tests with these testing call-ins and it seems most of the de-syncs happened when there was a lot of other stuff going on the map; like abilities being used or gun-fights breaking out. I predicted that the third ability would have the most de-syncs. But there wasn't much of a difference between second or third (with first having less de-syncs on 'heavy load' games). It looks like the game will 'break' if too much stuff is pushed onto it; doesn't matter if it's a LAN game or not (and I tested in LAN).

I don't know if this has happened to anyone else either. But I have seen replays de-syncing when I was watching them; yet these games never de-synced when I was playing in them. This has happened quite a few times, and I can remember the first time happening ages ago. Usually reloading the replay fixes it. If I had to point a finger at something it would probably be me watching a replay at 8x speed which seems to break it by having too many 'actions' carried out in very short time intervals from the games perspective.

With that in mind, I would like to see the removal of the off-map combat group call-in ability of Blitzkrieg Doctrine. Replacing it with something that allows you to build the Stug 4 Late Version for Blitzkrieg. I find it off-putting that the only way you can get this tank is pure RNG hoping that this call-in ability spawns it for you. It has a nice a model (I know it doesn't look much different to a normal Stug 4) with its remote controlled MG on top. Yet it seems to be slightly 'weaker' than a normal Stug 4 other than coming with veterancy 1 when it is spawned in as remote controlled MG's are not as strong as the other top MG's for Axis.

My idea about this tank and the Stuh that comes with the call-in unlock when you get the CP's is to have them as viable replacements for the call-in ability that isn't a cheap gimmick to spam when you feel like there's nothing else to do as Blitzkrieg. Blitzkrieg in comparison to Terror seems to have a weaker late game tank force; which is fine because it gets nice vehicles in the Sturm Factory. My line of thinking is to continue this 'Blitzkrieg has better tanks in the Sturm Factory' idea by giving Blitzkrieg Doctrine the late Stug 4 version with a few abilities added to it be more 'buffed' to the normal version of the Stug.

The ability replacing the call-in would replace the normal Stug 4/3 with the late Stug 4 version (having the same cost as a normal Stug 4 as it's unlocked late into the game) and unlock the Stuh for production as well. The late Stug 4 would have both the assault ability from the Stug 3 and the ambush ability from the Stug 4; and it would come equipped with Skirts from the start. It can use the ambush ability without veterancy, and the assault ability can only be used when it's not ambushed. If there was a command tank or command vehicle unlock for Blitzkrieg Doctrine I would put it along with this unlock here as well. This is one way I see Blitzkrieg Doctrine having this tank be buildable and useful to build later on in the game. With Blitzkrieg Doctrine also having a neat advantage over Terror in that Terror cannot build these nice 'ultimate version' Stugs that Blitzkrieg would get.

Ultimately my idea is focusing on the removal of something I see causing a lot of de-sync headaches and also somewhat 'buffing' Blitzkrieg in a way and making it less of a 'cheesy' doctrine to pick in an emergency. As I see this call-in replacing resource costs for when Axis need a tank without it costing fuel for them. I have the same problem regarding stuff like Jumbo call-ins; I don't like the idea of fuelless spawning frontline tanks unless they come very, very late in the game. I think steps are being taken to rework this already so I will leave my thoughts on this matter for now.

[Viper]

i dont like call in abilities too. and i agree 76 jumbo and many other call ins should be removed and such units should be buildable. but blitzkrieg doctrine without battlegroup reinforcements will be very uncompetitive. i think the current design of this doctrine makes the battlegroup a very important element to compete. it is very hard to play it another way. unless the doctrine is reworked and tigers become earlier available and more effective.

[Warhawks97]

i dont like call in abilities too. and i agree 76 jumbo and many other call ins should be removed and such units should be buildable. but blitzkrieg doctrine without battlegroup reinforcements will be very uncompetitive. i think the current design of this doctrine makes the battlegroup a very important element to compete. it is very hard to play it another way. unless the doctrine is reworked and tigers become earlier available and more effective.

I agree, i would also transfrom all call ins into buildable stuff. It would make cost balancing also much easier since all tanks would cost fuel, simple as that.


But i dont think the doc becomes "uncompetetive". I used the call in very often but usually i did so when i lacked ammo for inf upgrades or fuel for tanks. So i simply told myself: "fuck ammo, fuck fuel".

When i got fuel i spammed tank IV J via production simply bc i knew i gonna get one unlike call in which can give you whatever tank.
When i got ammo i also went for inf in needed rather than for that gamble....

Or i used it when i thought.... i have res, idk what to do with it... perhaps i get a stug IV late and gren squad to bolster my defense.... kind of that reason.



So i do like the idea from menicus a lot and yes, i would like to transfrom every call in into production style.



@menicus:
What about Tiger ace call in? it also calls in a second unit: A stormtrooper squad.
And what about RE 76 mm sherman call in? Its also two units comming in with short delay. Do they all cause desyncs?

[Viper]

What about Tiger ace call in? it also calls in a second unit: A stormtrooper squad.

tiger ace used to cost 1750mp with strom squad. but now it is 1550 mp and no storm.
but i dont understand why only 200mp cost reduction when 1 storm squad cost at least 400mp and pershing ace cost 1450mp.

anyway. the problem with battlegroup removal....i think it will hurt the "blitzkrieg" style of blitzkrieg doctrine.
the player ability to overrun enemies with a lot of units.....will be much less effective. unless the current doctrine design is completely changed.

[Warhawks97]

What about Tiger ace call in? it also calls in a second unit: A stormtrooper squad.

tiger ace used to cost 1750mp with strom squad. but now it is 1550 mp and no storm.
but i dont understand why only 200mp cost reduction when 1 storm squad cost at least 400mp and pershing ace cost 1450mp.

anyway. the problem with battlegroup removal....i think it will hurt the "blitzkrieg" style of blitzkrieg doctrine.
the player ability to overrun enemies with a lot of units.....will be much less effective. unless the current doctrine design is completely changed.

i dont think so. Or at least its not only this ability that allows it. In the past you could overrun almost everything with Tank IV J production spam, stug III and even stubby tank Iv spam along with volks.

Its far less likely to happen anymore but thats bc stats of weapons got changed (Garand, 6 pdr). But this ability has not so much to do whether you can overrun your enemie or not. The only difference is, assuming its possible stats wise, that this allows you to do that without or just little fuel, the other way of overruning would require some sort of minimal fuel income.

But its not all about this ability whether you can do it or not. Ive seen players in 3 vs 3 games that could create huge pressure just with spamming up to 6 volks squads early on backed by simple stug mass production. Its loses power as the game progresses but then you go for panthers anyway.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Thing about the other call-ins is I rarely ever see them used. Blitzkrieg Doctrine's combat group gets spammed like no tommorow sometimes; like just the second the cooldown is done refreshing. So yes, I've never seen a game where the 76 sherman call-ins for RE de-synced the game. But those games didn't have a lot of stuff going on when they were called-in. I can say with certainty though, that if you put a ludicrous amount of units into a call-in the game will literally break no matter what you do. Similarly if you have uber sized riflemen squads (30+ squad members in a single unit) all shooting at something in mass numbers it will de-sync.

[kwok]

Question here is are there any situations where a call-in WOULD be good?
For example, an idea that floated in my own head was that fireflies are removed from RAF but are turned into a call-in where it would call 2 fireflies for a really high price. The reason is it doesnt seem fair that RAF would have such strong mobile "tank destroyers" but would be missing a huge gap in their ability to deal with certain units without the fireflies. So a solution is to make it an extremely expensive bulk order only unit for RAF to represent armor units breakingthrough to save the day. Can the commandos hold out long enough (and thus conserving MP) until the cavalry arrive?
Just an idea of how call-ins CAN be used, whereas today theyre just used as getting tanks without fuel.

[mofetagalactica]

No more call-ins plz

[MEFISTO]

Ok guys this is what I think about this, actually I don't know if the "problem is about dezynk or you just don't like the BK call in" if your problem is because BK call in has "a lot of units"(1 squad and 1 tank) what about the Airborne doctrine where you can drop 4 paratroopers squad at the same time if you have the MP ( 101, 82, squad with the sniper, engineers, sniper, 76mm AT,) "do all of this dezynk the game too" do we have to remove all of this call in too? and I don't wanna start talking about all call in in the game. Now talking about Bk dock, one of the reason because bk is different is this call in where you can use this doctrine in a hard situation when you don't have fuel, or in a low resource map where you prefer Bk dock instead Terror or defensive, it is the same when you pick air borne and use your call in supply to get ammo and fuel for MP and use you air strike. Right now it is hard to survive a late game with BK dock in a big game vs armor or CW doctrines and now you wanna NERF the bk doctrine middle game too, It is going to be too much NERF for this doctrine. And talking about your stug4 "new version" if it is to BUFF then they will NERF it because people complain and you won't have nothing, neither call in neither "super stug4 new version"

[MenciusMoldbug]

Paratroopers are easier for the game to handle because they don't come from the spawning points generated on the map but where you clicked. I don't know the reasoning behind it but the game seems to find it a bit easier to work with stuff that doesn't rely on those spawn points. Problem with mass call-in units is like its forcing a sledgehammer into a small porthole and hoping everything works out. The best way I can describe it is to imagine how the game would have to load multiple units spawning from the off-map within milliseconds of each other. All the other players must register at the same time these units spawning within a few seconds with everything else that's going on. First it has to figure out which units shall 'spawn' in as it's not like you are calling a unit you know you will get like 101st airborne (this isn't really the big problem cause of the de-sync but it might be a partial one). It has to sort out whether you get the Stug, the P4, the other P4, the other Stug etc. and same thing with the inf squads. It then has to sort out their veterancy, their weapon upgrades, and whatever other specials they get. While also calculating the resource loss you incur for spawning these units. If any player in the game gets one of these values incorrectly he is not playing the same game anymore. It's why I refuse to use the call-in whenever I play Blitzkrieg Doctrine. I've had it happen too many times where I spammed it with resource blitz to get over 6 tanks + inf squads and I was told I was playing in my own game.

But perhaps all of that is also easy for the game to handle and I'm wrong about how the de-syncs actually work. Still, one thing to keep in mind is that in VCoH most people are playing with capture point population limits so they have 60 or 75 max pop in most maps. While in BK most people play with the 250 (or more with fun mode) popcap limit. It's not hard to get to that 200 mark if you keep a few of your units alive while pumping out other stuff.

Edit: if the call-in is too valuable for Blitzkrieg; it should at least be reworked in that it isn't so 'spam-worthy' that you keep using the ability to call multiple units in all the time. It's in a weird place (in CP's and cost effectiveness for 850 MP) where it's meant to be a 'zerg-rush' ability where you keep using it until it's no longer useful and you can get Panthers/Tigers instead.

[MEFISTO]

Paratroopers are easier for the game to handle because they don't come from the spawning points generated on the map but where you clicked. I don't know the reasoning behind it but the game seems to find it a bit easier to work with stuff that doesn't rely on those spawn points. Problem with mass call-in units is like its forcing a sledgehammer into a small porthole and hoping everything works out. The best way I can describe it is to imagine how the game would have to load multiple units spawning from the off-map within milliseconds of each other. All the other players must register at the same time these units spawning within a few seconds with everything else that's going on. First it has to figure out which units shall 'spawn' in as it's not like you are calling a unit you know you will get like 101st airborne (this isn't really the big problem cause of the de-sync but it might be a partial one). It has to sort out whether you get the Stug, the P4, the other P4, the other Stug etc. and same thing with the inf squads. It then has to sort out their veterancy, their weapon upgrades, and whatever other specials they get. While also calculating the resource loss you incur for spawning these units. If any player in the game gets one of these values incorrectly he is not playing the same game anymore. It's why I refuse to use the call-in whenever I play Blitzkrieg Doctrine. I've had it happen too many times where I spammed it with resource blitz to get over 6 tanks + inf squads and I was told I was playing in my own game.

But perhaps all of that is also easy for the game to handle and I'm wrong about how the de-syncs actually work. Still, one thing to keep in mind is that in VCoH most people are playing with capture point population limits so they have 60 or 75 max pop in most maps. While in BK most people play with the 250 (or more with fun mode) popcap limit. It's not hard to get to that 200 mark if you keep a few of your units alive while pumping out other stuff.

Edit: if the call-in is too valuable for Blitzkrieg; it should at least be reworked in that it isn't so 'spam-worthy' that you keep using the ability to call multiple units in all the time. It's in a weird place (in CP's and cost effectiveness for 850 MP) where it's meant to be a 'zerg-rush' ability where you keep using it until it's no longer useful and you can get Panthers/Tigers instead.

Right now if you spend 5 CP to gat your call in and you play vs armor and they rush heavy tanks you are done as BK dock, so what is the problem here? also when you go for them your heavy infantry or you tigers and Panthers will come late! so it is ok as it is.

[kwok]

I think the problem isn’t balance Mefisto, it’s more about preventing desyncs. How to fix it without breaking balance.

[Warhawks97]

back then the call in was no random spawn but one stug late with grens... perhaps we get back to this?

Perhaps, we make it call in a stug III and grens and make stug IV late buildable in Bk doc?

[MenciusMoldbug]

What's the weakest force you can get from the call-in:

- Volksgrenadiers with 4 MP40s

- A Stug 3 fully upgraded

How much are these units worth in terms of manpower, munitions, and fuel? Stug 3 is 350 MP, 40 fuel, with 100 munitions worth of upgrades on it. The Volksgrenadier is 265 MP, with 50 munitions of upgrades on worth on it. The total MP cost of just getting these without any upgrades is 615 MP.

What's the best possible call-in you can get? Well:

- P4 J fully upgraded

- Stormtroopers with panzershreck and 3 MP44s

P4 J is 410 MP, 45 fuel, with 100 munitions worth of upgrades. The stormies lose their evasive maneuvevs for having the shreck unfortunately but are worth 500 MP and 125 munitions. The total MP cost of these guys are 810 MP. Completely worth the cost.

Perhaps the biggest problem with this call-in unlike all the other MP call-ins that people have problems with. Is that there's no 'limit' on this call-in. The 76mm Jumbo might be OP; but the Armor Doctrine player can only get 1. The RE engineers 2 sherman call-ins for 780 MP might be OP as well; but they are limited to 1 call-in as long as 2 of these tanks are alive. So where's the limit on this call-in? Why is it the only one excluded from being what I consider cheap and very effective while having no limits to how many units it generates on the field.

I still remember when people complained about how RE was spamming the 76mm sherman for RE doc and the British never getting their armor truck because of it (and that got patched pretty fast). I don't think I even have to build a Sturm Factory if I play on low fuel maps with this ability. What's the point? You can get a tank for 850 MP and with resource blitz the cost is pretty much nothing but munitions and not a terrible MP drain for sometime. Resource blitz actually makes this ability pretty hilarious because you are trading munitions for manpower for fuel to get a tank. Which makes getting fuel supply rather moot (and I don't think anyone actually uses that ability over resource blitz).

Thing about command points is they aren't like research trees in some other strategy games. The gradual earning of a command point is very, very slow. You will not be able to complete the entire doctrine tree relying on the gradual tick-up rate in an hour long game by itself. You need to feed it XP from other sources. Those green-ticker XP's for building, deaths, and killing are just that; command point XP's. You can get a single command point by building 2 observation posts (I think a few more kills are needed as well but 2 Ops do it for me). If you keep doing that you can get a King Tiger within 20-25 minutes of the game (I've done this before and it's not as impossible as one might think). You can even deny your enemy getting any command points by never feeding him any kills at all. Maybe just using artillery, snipers, or anything that does not get in his gun range. But that's quite hard to do and it's not really a 'fun' way to play.

Maybe endlessly calling in units from a single ability is working as intended. But then RE should not have had its sherman call-in patched to maximum of 2 or 3 fielded 76 shermans because it's pretty much the same thing. Except it gives 2 tanks instead of an infantry unit coming along with it. There should at least be a limit to that.

Edit: I'm not sure but I think you can also bypass the limit on stormtrooper squads if you use this call-in ability as it does not have a limit like the other ones. At least they can't crawl because an unlimited number of crawling stormtrooper squads with panzershrecks would be pretty scary.

[MEFISTO]

What's the weakest force you can get from the call-in:

- Volksgrenadiers with 4 MP40s

- A Stug 3 fully upgraded

How much are these units worth in terms of manpower, munitions, and fuel? Stug 3 is 350 MP, 40 fuel, with 100 munitions worth of upgrades on it. The Volksgrenadier is 265 MP, with 50 munitions of upgrades on worth on it. The total MP cost of just getting these without any upgrades is 615 MP.

What's the best possible call-in you can get? Well:

- P4 J fully upgraded

- Stormtroopers with panzershreck and 3 MP44s

P4 J is 410 MP, 45 fuel, with 100 munitions worth of upgrades. The stormies lose their evasive maneuvevs for having the shreck unfortunately but are worth 500 MP and 125 munitions. The total MP cost of these guys are 810 MP. Completely worth the cost.

Perhaps the biggest problem with this call-in unlike all the other MP call-ins that people have problems with. Is that there's no 'limit' on this call-in. The 76mm Jumbo might be OP; but the Armor Doctrine player can only get 1. The RE engineers 2 sherman call-ins for 780 MP might be OP as well; but they are limited to 1 call-in as long as 2 of these tanks are alive. So where's the limit on this call-in? Why is it the only one excluded from being what I consider cheap and very effective while having no limits to how many units it generates on the field.

I still remember when people complained about how RE was spamming the 76mm sherman for RE doc and the British never getting their armor truck because of it (and that got patched pretty fast). I don't think I even have to build a Sturm Factory if I play on low fuel maps with this ability. What's the point? You can get a tank for 850 MP and with resource blitz the cost is pretty much nothing but munitions and not a terrible MP drain for sometime. Resource blitz actually makes this ability pretty hilarious because you are trading munitions for manpower for fuel to get a tank. Which makes getting fuel supply rather moot (and I don't think anyone actually uses that ability over resource blitz).

Thing about command points is they aren't like research trees in some other strategy games. The gradual earning of a command point is very, very slow. You will not be able to complete the entire doctrine tree relying on the gradual tick-up rate in an hour long game by itself. You need to feed it XP from other sources. Those green-ticker XP's for building, deaths, and killing are just that; command point XP's. You can get a single command point by building 2 observation posts (I think a few more kills are needed as well but 2 Ops do it for me). If you keep doing that you can get a King Tiger within 20-25 minutes of the game (I've done this before and it's not as impossible as one might think). You can even deny your enemy getting any command points by never feeding him any kills at all. Maybe just using artillery, snipers, or anything that does not get in his gun range. But that's quite hard to do and it's not really a 'fun' way to play.

Maybe endlessly calling in units from a single ability is working as intended. But then RE should not have had its sherman call-in patched to maximum of 2 or 3 fielded 76 shermans because it's pretty much the same thing. Except it gives 2 tanks instead of an infantry unit coming along with it. There should at least be a limit to that.

Edit: I'm not sure but I think you can also bypass the limit on stormtrooper squads if you use this call-in ability as it does not have a limit like the other ones. At least they can't crawl because an unlimited number of crawling stormtrooper squads with panzershrecks would be pretty scary.

I don't know if your real issue is whit the dezynk or Bk dock call in, because you are talking about balance here my friend

[Viper]

as said. although i agree call in abilities are bad. but with the current design. blitzkrieg doctrine is close to useless without the battlegroup call in.
unless the doctrine is completely redesigned. and better alternatives were added. but "buildable late version stug4" is not a proper alternative.

[Warhawks97]

What's the weakest force you can get from the call-in:

- Volksgrenadiers with 4 MP40s

- A Stug 3 fully upgraded

How much are these units worth in terms of manpower, munitions, and fuel? Stug 3 is 350 MP, 40 fuel, with 100 munitions worth of upgrades on it. The Volksgrenadier is 265 MP, with 50 munitions of upgrades on worth on it. The total MP cost of just getting these without any upgrades is 615 MP.

What's the best possible call-in you can get? Well:

- P4 J fully upgraded

- Stormtroopers with panzershreck and 3 MP44s

P4 J is 410 MP, 45 fuel, with 100 munitions worth of upgrades. The stormies lose their evasive maneuvevs for having the shreck unfortunately but are worth 500 MP and 125 munitions. The total MP cost of these guys are 810 MP. Completely worth the cost.

Perhaps the biggest problem with this call-in unlike all the other MP call-ins that people have problems with. Is that there's no 'limit' on this call-in. The 76mm Jumbo might be OP; but the Armor Doctrine player can only get 1. The RE engineers 2 sherman call-ins for 780 MP might be OP as well; but they are limited to 1 call-in as long as 2 of these tanks are alive. So where's the limit on this call-in? Why is it the only one excluded from being what I consider cheap and very effective while having no limits to how many units it generates on the field.

I still remember when people complained about how RE was spamming the 76mm sherman for RE doc and the British never getting their armor truck because of it (and that got patched pretty fast). I don't think I even have to build a Sturm Factory if I play on low fuel maps with this ability. What's the point? You can get a tank for 850 MP and with resource blitz the cost is pretty much nothing but munitions and not a terrible MP drain for sometime. Resource blitz actually makes this ability pretty hilarious because you are trading munitions for manpower for fuel to get a tank. Which makes getting fuel supply rather moot (and I don't think anyone actually uses that ability over resource blitz).

Thing about command points is they aren't like research trees in some other strategy games. The gradual earning of a command point is very, very slow. You will not be able to complete the entire doctrine tree relying on the gradual tick-up rate in an hour long game by itself. You need to feed it XP from other sources. Those green-ticker XP's for building, deaths, and killing are just that; command point XP's. You can get a single command point by building 2 observation posts (I think a few more kills are needed as well but 2 Ops do it for me). If you keep doing that you can get a King Tiger within 20-25 minutes of the game (I've done this before and it's not as impossible as one might think). You can even deny your enemy getting any command points by never feeding him any kills at all. Maybe just using artillery, snipers, or anything that does not get in his gun range. But that's quite hard to do and it's not really a 'fun' way to play.

Maybe endlessly calling in units from a single ability is working as intended. But then RE should not have had its sherman call-in patched to maximum of 2 or 3 fielded 76 shermans because it's pretty much the same thing. Except it gives 2 tanks instead of an infantry unit coming along with it. There should at least be a limit to that.

Edit: I'm not sure but I think you can also bypass the limit on stormtrooper squads if you use this call-in ability as it does not have a limit like the other ones. At least they can't crawl because an unlimited number of crawling stormtrooper squads with panzershrecks would be pretty scary.

Good point, but how to set a limit here? all other call ins are special units for their respective doc/faction but this brings just normal units... many of them. So the current call in cant get a limit obviously. The only alternative would be special unit call ins.


Anyway, i also dont like call ins at all where you get tanks/vehicles only for MP. I already thought about adding fuel costs to call ins that include tanks.


But you made a good point and perhaps a doc rework can solve such issues as well.