3v3 4v4 Allies vs German stuff

[MEFISTO]

Hey guys I have been playing some of this 3v3 4v4 as Allies and German (pro players) and I realize that it is easier to win with Allies.
This is my point: Allies has good stuff and cheap that can destroy easily expensive Germans stuff like Achilles, Hellcat, M36 Jakson( 2 versions are good and have good abilities) M 10, all of them using theirs abilities are amazing and when you combine this with artillery and CW/Allies air strike you know!...also you have Pershings for better price than a Tiger (pershings are better than tigers I thing it is fine 90mm vs 88mm) so you can use a lot stuff and excellent abilities to counter Germans specially The Wehrmacht army.
Let me say something about Germans, They have very good stuff too but (expensive) I don't want to make them cheaper only more useful, for example I sow 1 of my tigers shut whit AP munition and bounce the jumbo and of curse the jumbo destroy my Tiger That was funny (88mm Ap vs Jumbo 76mm)(750 vs 975mp 170 fuel) in this case (terror and BK dock) their heavy tanks (tigers, Pnathers) can be counters easily with the armors that I told before using theirs abilities, about Ace tiger (it is a joke it has good abilities but can be counter by a regular Pershing) the King tiger is ok but some times is sad when you save all your fuel and rush it and it is destroy by a plane or a click ability. Talking about abilities, all allies doctrines have camouflage and Flank speed in some tanks in this case Bk and terror have only camouflage in stugsIV but they still need veterancy to use it and no German tank has flank speed.
Allies have cheaper good stuff and excellents abilities.
What do you think guys 3v3 4v4 Allies vs Germans?

[MenciusMoldbug]

Always have one player who's playing tank hunter doctrine in 3v3+

Tank Hunter doctrine will absolutely obliterate allies given enough time. It's as necessary as having an artillery player as allies vs tough defenses. Hetzer, JP4 L/70, and Jagdpanther will eventually destroy all allied armor and they don't even have to move too much. They can sit in ambush and wait for the enemy tanks to come to them.

It's one of the reasons I don't like playing wehrmacht all too much. No fun for me with their expensive frontal-assault type battering-ram gameplay where you just have to face allies head-on with your brute force units (unless you're defensive doctrine, you get kind-of nice TD's there). Meanwhile PE can make lots of different build orders work for whatever niche they want. Most of their units will work extremely well paired with whatever else PE gets to counter their weaknesses (say an armored car coupled with an ambushed Hetzer).

I don't remember when I had this old game (was a long time ago). But there was one where I was playing 4v4 as axis and I went tank hunter when allies had chosen no tank doctrine (was like 2 royal artillery and 1 airborne and 1 us infantry I think) and I still managed to get a JP 4 L/70 with 20+ tank kills and veterancy 4. I distinctively remember it being able to eat 5 bazookas to the front and only losing half its hp but that was thanks to damage reduction stacking with zimmerit, commander, vet, etc. (don't remember if you can do hull down position with the L/70 but if you can the damage reduction can stack up to 90% then).

Only thing you have to keep a look out for as TH is some maps don't give you any place to ambush your Tank Destroyers. This is actually a pretty easy thing to 'fix' as you can use stuff like mortar halftracks to make 'potholes' with its mortar barrage (or attack ground). This creates those little craters of yellow cover which you can put your TD's into ambush from. I like doing 'ambush-creeping' where I slowly inch the line forwards and keep spamming ambush camouflage for my TD's where I think it's safe. Usually nothing happens to them either because axis TD's have unusually good camouflage bonuses for their tanks (like only 10 detection radius for Jagdpanther while Kettenkrad has 7).

If you take away all the 'abusive' stuff than I feel balance favors the allies early on (which can snowball from there) but axis also has a lot of stuff that completely negates allied early game advantage. Like the Light-AT Squad for Wehrmacht. So it's hard for me to say atm who it really favors. It still feels to me if you gave axis enough time to get everything they wanted, they will inevitably win; As allies are too 'razor-sharp' in being specialized towards certain goals (no good way to destroy heavy tanks as infantry company for example). This might not be the case for British since they can kind of cover all roles if played right (no arty for RAF though). But certain times for US, it definitely feels like your on a knife-edge to end the game fast/out-attrition the enemy out before they can put the hurt on you.

[Walderschmidt]

^When I get a minute, I'll upload the replay that spawned this discussion, if you're interested in watching.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

+1 menicus. Well said.


I also like this "creeping forward ambush style". I love SE in particular in the long run bc you stil get Nashorn's and powerfull arty aa well as traps. But th is also fun... your td can mark infantry which makes 20 mm vehicles even more fun to use.

[Walderschmidt]

Here's the replay:

6p_lafiere.2019-01-06.21-56-43.rec

(10.05 MiB) Downloaded 36 times

After Super-Dank Drops, ignore the rest, because the game desyncs.

Wald

[Viper]

i agree with mefisto about over priced axis tanks.

from realistic point of view. tiger tanks were expensive.
but also from realistic point of view. pershing tank cant be available before any king tiger.......but in bk mod pershing is early as tigers.

i think tigers and panther g should have price reduction.
975mp and 170 fuel for tiger1 is paranormal.

maybe 875mp and 155 fuel will be better. and that is still more expensive than pershing. 830mp and 150 fuel.

and why panther g is more expensive than Pershing? also available later

axis tanks need to be cheaper.

[Warhawks97]

I disagree with cost reduction.

Tigers should not be supposed to gradually replace Panzer IV´s etc but thats what you are going to achieve with cost reduction.

Currently you have to kill like 2 shermans with a tiger and the cost are payed off so far.... having two kills with it you get long range shot and kill like 5 tanks more easily.... it seems to me that tigers are struggling the issues they did in reality: They payed themselves off in pure K/D ration but on a strategic level they achieved nothing bc they couldnt turn the kills into an actually victory in the long term.

I want them to be an option, not a core unit. Core units should keep units like Panzer IV´s, Stugs, Panthers, hetzers or for allis: shermans and M10/18.


So once again i gonna ask: Why not changing the unlock line so that Panzer IV is put in the center and Panther and Tigers become two independent paths? A Tiger would require just 3 CP in total, a panther like 4 CP and KT perhaps like 6 CP. While Tigers would be earlier available and with good vet abilities, the Panther requires more tec as it becomes the second main stay combat unit for axis side on side with Tank IV´s and stugs.


I am simply against pure cost reduction just bc a tiger doesnt always pay off its cost.... at the end player skills and unit preservation (esspecially for such units) should be most important, not a brainless spam of such units. And if you look at current late games, when allis have NOT already won the early game, Panthers role out one after the other, at least ressources are stored to replace a Panther loss unless you rush it stupidly into Jacksons or get overwhelmed by firefly/Pershing spam when you lost the mid game.

[Viper]

pershings spam is ok. but tigers spam is not ok? pershing is not limited in armor doctrine. unlike tigers.

Currently you have to kill like 2 shermans with a tiger and the cost are payed off so far.... having two kills with it you get long range shot

2 shermans dont give you long shot. you will need to kill 5 or 6 shermans at least to reach level 2 for long shot.

and to pay off tiger price. you will need to kill at least 3 or 4 shermans.
tiger cost 975mp and 170 fuel.
sherman 76w cost 380mp and 45 fuel with price reduction in armor doctrine.

3x sherman equal 1140mp and 135 fuel. 4 shermans equal 1520mp and 180 fuel.
3 shermans only more expensive in mp. but still cheaper in fuel. 4 shermans cost as much fuel as 1 tiger.

but i like the idea to make tigers, panthers and king tiger earlier available. if the current prices stay.

[Warhawks97]

pershings spam is ok. but tigers spam is not ok? pershing is not limited in armor doctrine. unlike tigers.

where did i say it? Pershing wouldnt be avaialble to Tigers. I would also rather see them as a counter to Panthers which would also require less cp than a pershing.

and to pay off tiger price. you will need to kill at least 3 or 4 shermans.
tiger cost 975mp and 170 fuel.
sherman 76w cost 380mp and 45 fuel with price reduction in armor doctrine.

you have to count for the basic cost. Mass-production is a bonus. If we would take axis TD cost in TH doc as the cost in which the unit is balanced, all of them would be considered over-performing for the cost. So whenever you balance a unit, you have to make it over its basic cost.

3x sherman equal 1140mp and 135 fuel. 4 shermans equal 1520mp and 180 fuel.
3 shermans only more expensive in mp. but still cheaper in fuel. 4 shermans cost as much fuel as 1 tiger.

and here you also have to keep upkeep in mind. A tiger might be expensive in upkeep but for your opponent the upkeep is higher as he has to field more units to fight against it. Supply yard costs a lot and pays off over quite a long time only. In terms of fuel 3 shermans will always eat up more fuel than a tiger. So over the time both sides field this "equal army strenght" (just as an example i take these 3 shermans as power-equivalent to 1 tiger.... its actually more complex but anyway) the single unit will cost you less over time.


Anyway... i dont want to talk about that again.... i had at least 9763736 debates about during the past years. But remember just this: Units balance is based on their core cost, everything else would be nonsense. Doctrinal unlocks shall provide bonuses over your enemie, not be mandatory to match enemies basic strenght. Throwing two Panzer IV´s from Bk doc that cost less than a sherman 76 could also be used to fight a single pershing and are toghether still cheaper than this pershing but we dont count for the mass prod cost but rather for the basic costs.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

Just give Panther D to Blitzkrieg and Terror as cheap reward unit, also I think maybe it should cost a little bit less, as Warhawks said?
Giving Sluggers to other doctrines and removing over-repair from Armor would be interesting decision, as mechanics are already has insane repair speed

[MEFISTO]

I have also a replay TH-Terror(Dick Malone Jonson/Kwok) vs Armor-RAF(Walder/I) were allies destroy all heavy tanks in the late game using Achilles, Gammon grenade, Air strike and Pershing and Don't forget the RAF radio triangulation to find your favorite "creeping forward ambush style" I did not use this time but I just want to remind you, Talking about The Wehrmacht late game (except Defensive dock) nothing to do vs Armor specially BK dock (it is fine, you can't counter Armor dock with everything) but kip in mind that you are taking down expensive units with cheaper stuff easily (I don't want to make a tiger cheaper just more Usable {more range or better penetration or more frontal resistance vs 76mm} so you can keep the price and you still can destroy it using flanking abilities and hitting by the rear with your 76 Hellcat or m10 and of course you will be able to destroy them with your Pershings (cheaper by the way). Also I think it could be great for Wehrmacht if the Stug IV(only) can use the camouflage with out veteran just like others TH or Hellcat M10 Achilles M36 Jakson (before some one tell me that they have more HP than m10 or Hellcat remember stug does't have flank speed) Just let me know what do you think guys may be I am wrong.

[Viper]

I have also a replay TH-Terror(Dick Malone Jonson/Kwok) vs Armor-RAF(Walder/I) were allies destroy all heavy tanks in the late game using Achilles, Gammon grenade, Air strike and Pershing and Don't forget the RAF radio triangulation to find your favorite "creeping forward ambush style" I did not use this time but I just want to remind you, Talking about The Wehrmacht late game (except Defensive dock) nothing to do vs Armor specially BK dock (it is fine, you can't counter Armor dock with everything) but kip in mind that you are taking down expensive units with cheaper stuff easily (I don't want to make a tiger cheaper just more Usable {more range or better penetration or more frontal resistance vs 76mm} so you can keep the price and you still can destroy it using flanking abilities and hitting by the rear with your 76 Hellcat or m10 and of course you will be able to destroy them with your Pershings (cheaper by the way). Also I think it could be great for Wehrmacht if the Stug IV(only) can use the camouflage with out veteran just like others TH or Hellcat M10 Achilles M36 Jakson (before some one tell me that they have more HP than m10 or Hellcat remember stug does't have flank speed) Just let me know what do you think guys may be I am wrong.

totally agreed.

one big reason why axis lose in late game. is because they are always under pressure in mid and early game.
axis dont have early affordable tanks with explosive which can attack pak40 guns and panzershrecks without any fear.
i mean jumbo and churchills are always early available and very aggressive because they have very good armor.
axis don't have any units like that in early game.

[Warhawks97]

I have also a replay TH-Terror(Dick Malone Jonson/Kwok) vs Armor-RAF(Walder/I) were allies destroy all heavy tanks in the late game using Achilles, Gammon grenade, Air strike and Pershing

thats their purpose

and Don't forget the RAF radio triangulation to find your favorite "creeping forward ambush style"

you see RAF guys trying to do that. I have a bike for that reason sweeping the locations where bacons could be.

I did not use this time but I just want to remind you, Talking about The Wehrmacht late game (except Defensive dock) nothing to do vs Armor specially BK dock (it is fine, you can't counter Armor dock with everything) but kip in mind that you are taking down expensive units with cheaper stuff easily

thats what counters are supposed to be. A counter to a unit is simply cheaper, else it wouldnt be a cost effective counter. Many tank assaults got stopped by cheaper anti tank guns.

The same way you can use hetzers, IV/70´s, stugs and nashorns to destroy any tank the enemie throws at you. We dont make nashorn costing as much as a pershing just bc it counters them so effectively.

(I don't want to make a tiger cheaper just more Usable {more range or better penetration or more frontal resistance vs 76mm} so you can keep the price and you still can destroy it using flanking abilities and hitting by the rear with your 76 Hellcat or m10 and of course you will be able to destroy them with your Pershings (cheaper by the way).

the 76 gun with HVAP has a pen chance that is as low as 34% even with HVAP... idk how much you want to lower it? Do you want to eradicate any chance to pen them just bc they cost more?

Also I think it could be great for Wehrmacht if the Stug IV(only) can use the camouflage with out veteran just like others TH or Hellcat M10 Achilles M36 Jakson (before some one tell me that they have more HP than m10 or Hellcat remember stug does't have flank speed) Just let me know what do you think guys may be I am wrong.

stug is a 0 CP tank. You would give offensive orientated docs one of the best ambush tds available. You can technically shoot an enemie tank with your first shot and take out inf squad with second HE shot.
You want it ambush at default? fine, give stugs Cp cost then or stug IV unlocked along tank IV unlock. Or make M10 0 CP standard td for all US docs.

[Walderschmidt]

Also I think it could be great for Wehrmacht if the Stug IV(only) can use the camouflage with out veteran just like others TH or Hellcat M10 Achilles M36 Jakson (before some one tell me that they have more HP than m10 or Hellcat remember stug does't have flank speed) Just let me know what do you think guys may be I am wrong.

stug is a 0 CP tank. You would give offensive orientated docs one of the best ambush tds available. You can technically shoot an enemie tank with your first shot and take out inf squad with second HE shot.
You want it ambush at default? fine, give stugs Cp cost then or stug IV unlocked along tank IV unlock. Or make M10 0 CP standard td for all US docs.

I think all US Docs should have M10 unlocked without CP, like armor doc. And maybe Armor doc gets hellcats as a replacement for the M10?

Otherwise, yes - Mefisto unfortunately chose the wrong doctrine to face off against two armor docs.

However, the point still stands, in my opinion, that the tiger is near useless in this mod. While Tigers don't have some of their historical disadvantages modelled in game, their historical advantages besides armor aren't modelled either due to constraints of game engine and the scale of the game.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

However, the point still stands, in my opinion, that the tiger is near useless in this mod. While Tigers don't have some of their historical disadvantages modelled in game, their historical advantages besides armor aren't modelled either due to constraints of game engine and the scale of the game.

Wald

In reality tigers have been put into seperate "Abteilungen". They were considered an "army"... thats what we lack in BK... here tigers are just add ons to already powerfull docs, but we lack a doc that is focused on tigers with support stuff for them.

And what do they lack? armor is quite realistic i would say, gun damage as well.... got extra range and later long range shot.

It requires just too many cps to unlock...

[Viper]

i much agree with warhawks to make tigers, panthers and king tiger earlier available.

here are some ideas.............although i said before.

i think terror doctrine tech tree should be "tigers" doctrine. and blitzkrieg "panthers" doctrine.
why not? we have royal engineers "churchills" doctrine and we have armor doctrine "shermans and pershing" doctrine.

so terror can be like this:
tiger.h (3cp) - tiger.e (1cp) - tiger ace (2cp) - king tiger (2cp)
so king tiger will require total 8cp instead of 11 now.
ace tiger will require 6cp instead of 9 now.

for info: jackson require 4cp. pershing require 5cp. super pershing require 9 cp. elefant require 9cp. jagdtiger require 10cp. jagdpanther require 6cp. crocodile churchill require 8cp now.

and blitzkrieg doctrine should be the "panther" doctrine without any tigers.
like this:
pz4 (2cp) but pz4 should be alone, not connected to panthers tech tree.
so.......
panther.d (3cp) - panther.a (2cp) - panther.g (1cp)


and i prefer stug4 to be unlocked with pz4 in blitzkrieg doctrine. so no need to make m10 without unlock. and stug3 will be standard in terror.

[MEFISTO]

I have also a replay TH-Terror(Dick Malone Jonson/Kwok) vs Armor-RAF(Walder/I) were allies destroy all heavy tanks in the late game using Achilles, Gammon grenade, Air strike and Pershing

thats their purpose[*]

and Don't forget the RAF radio triangulation to find your favorite "creeping forward ambush style"

you see RAF guys trying to do that. I have a bike for that reason sweeping the locations where bacons could be.

I did not use this time but I just want to remind you, Talking about The Wehrmacht late game (except Defensive dock) nothing to do vs Armor specially BK dock (it is fine, you can't counter Armor dock with everything) but kip in mind that you are taking down expensive units with cheaper stuff easily

thats what counters are supposed to be. A counter to a unit is simply cheaper, else it wouldnt be a cost effective counter. Many tank assaults got stopped by cheaper anti tank guns.

The same way you can use hetzers, IV/70´s, stugs and nashorns to destroy any tank the enemie throws at you. We dont make nashorn costing as much as a pershing just bc it counters them so effectively.

(I don't want to make a tiger cheaper just more Usable {more range or better penetration or more frontal resistance vs 76mm} so you can keep the price and you still can destroy it using flanking abilities and hitting by the rear with your 76 Hellcat or m10 and of course you will be able to destroy them with your Pershings (cheaper by the way).

the 76 gun with HVAP has a pen chance that is as low as 34% even with HVAP... idk how much you want to lower it? Do you want to eradicate any chance to pen them just bc they cost more?[*]

Also I think it could be great for Wehrmacht if the Stug IV(only) can use the camouflage with out veteran just like others TH or Hellcat M10 Achilles M36 Jakson (before some one tell me that they have more HP than m10 or Hellcat remember stug does't have flank speed) Just let me know what do you think guys may be I am wrong.

stug is a 0 CP tank. You would give offensive orientated docs one of the best ambush tds available. You can technically shoot an enemie tank with your first shot and take out inf squad with second HE shot.
You want it ambush at default? fine, give stugs Cp cost then or stug IV unlocked along tank IV unlock. Or make M10 0 CP standard td for all US docs.

I was talking about how many possibilities you have to destroy all of those heavies tanks and your "creeping forward ambush style" (they are good) and I know their propose but some times people here forgot this when they say Germans are OP and also I would like to see your bike rolling around in a big map looking a piece of (....), and the people don't use the RAF radio triangulation because they don't know or they are lazy no because you Bike hahahah it is very useful when is combined with Arty.
It does't like a 34% when I see a Jumbo 750mp ONLY taking down a Tiger 975mp/170 I am tire of this joke, I fine if you put a reasonable price to the Jumbo and make it in the Armor facility for fuel( you can figured it out)
I am agree about teh m10 cp and talking about HE hellcat has it too and

[Warhawks97]

i much agree with warhawks to make tigers, panthers and king tiger earlier available.


i think terror doctrine tech tree should be "tigers" doctrine. and blitzkrieg "panthers" doctrine.
why not? we have royal engineers "churchills" doctrine and we have armor doctrine "shermans and pershing" doctrine.

The Panther was more or less the direct successor of panzer IV and was supposed to replace it. Panther can stay as a main stay in several docs as main medium tank... thus:

so terror can be like this:
tiger.h (3cp) - tiger.e (1cp) - tiger ace (2cp) - king tiger (2cp)
so king tiger will require total 8cp instead of 11 now.
ace tiger will require 6cp instead of 9 now.

Tiger E and H can be reward.... so you get Panther 3-4 CP<- Tank IV H or J 1 CP->Tiger E/H 2 CP->KT (or ace) 4 CP...... Or the Tank IV starts at the very left top corner, below panther and towards right corner comes tiger, kt, ace..

and blitzkrieg doctrine should be the "panther" doctrine without any tigers.
like this:
pz4 (2cp) but pz4 should be alone, not connected to panthers tech tree.
so.......
panther.d (3cp) - panther.a (2cp) - panther.g (1cp)

i wouldnt mind combining tigers in one doc, but that doesnt mean that we need an entire line of 3 different panther types... thats basically 2 unlocks wasted just for slight unit improvments. We can place the A version in the Tiger doc as support and the D/G in the BK doc as rewards to each other.

and i prefer stug4 to be unlocked with pz4 in blitzkrieg doctrine. so no need to make m10 without unlock. and stug3 will be standard in terror.

but i love the stug III in bk doc from time to time as cheap assault units paired with storms/grens. They can stay as reward just that the iV needs the tank IV unlock. Or we keep them as 0 CP and M10 as basic unit working combined with shermans.

[Viper]

yes. it can be done in many different ways. in general. the whole idea is to make tigers, panthers and king tiger earlier available.
thats if they will keep the current prices to reflect how they were expensive in reality. and at the same time turning the stug4 into real tank hunter.
and doing so can be also made in different ways. so i hope the developers will be inspired by some of the ideas here.

[The New BK Champion]

I have a funny idea. What if we make tiger tank something special? Like Hawks said they were treated as separate batalions, so why don't we make BK doc unique this way?

My idea is that when u unlock the tiger tank in command tree, you get a call in ability of instantly getting 2 tigers from off-map for around 1500-1800mp? This way they act in "blitzkrieg way", you get them fast, they are a punch to break a hole in enemy front. Overwhelming with numbers as soon as possible. A true tigergruppe.

BK doc has always been about rushing panzer IV, later it becomes useless imo. What if we make tigers act like panzers but in later game? Making them cost only mp still makes u choose either to spam panzers or choose tiger group. That is some more flexibility and freedom than linear approach that we have had until now. And over 1500 mp is still really a lot, considering that WH is not cheap.

[Walderschmidt]

I have a funny idea. What if we make tiger tank something special? Like Hawks said they were treated as separate batalions, so why don't we make BK doc unique this way?

My idea is that when u unlock the tiger tank in command tree, you get a call in ability of instantly getting 2 tigers from off-map for around 1500-1800mp? This way they act in "blitzkrieg way", you get them fast, they are a punch to break a hole in enemy front. Overwhelming with numbers as soon as possible. A true tigergruppe.

BK doc has always been about rushing panzer IV, later it becomes useless imo. What if we make tigers act like panzers but in later game? Making them cost only mp still makes u choose either to spam panzers or choose tiger group. That is some more flexibility and freedom than linear approach that we have had until now. And over 1500 mp is still really a lot, considering that WH is not cheap.

Probably the most interesting idea I've seen yet.

I like the idea of Tiger as a call in rather than just a buildable unit. Besides, it'd be rare at this stage in the war for a crew in a Tiger tank to not be experienced, so would make sense if they had a few extra abilities.

Wald

[MEFISTO]

I have a funny idea. What if we make tiger tank something special? Like Hawks said they were treated as separate batalions, so why don't we make BK doc unique this way?

My idea is that when u unlock the tiger tank in command tree, you get a call in ability of instantly getting 2 tigers from off-map for around 1500-1800mp? This way they act in "blitzkrieg way", you get them fast, they are a punch to break a hole in enemy front. Overwhelming with numbers as soon as possible. A true tigergruppe.

BK doc has always been about rushing panzer IV, later it becomes useless imo. What if we make tigers act like panzers but in later game? Making them cost only mp still makes u choose either to spam panzers or choose tiger group. That is some more flexibility and freedom than linear approach that we have had until now. And over 1500 mp is still really a lot, considering that WH is not cheap.

I like it 100% and It could be 1800 the tiger ace (Michael Wittmann) and other tiger like an authentic tiger squadron!

[King of Kings]

If you dont know how to effiently use the tiger stop saying that it is useless or anything else. A vet tiger can be a game winner you just probably don't know how to exploit it!
I even heard a call-in option for a tiger in bk doc.... gosh!

[Viper]

I have a funny idea. What if we make tiger tank something special? Like Hawks said they were treated as separate batalions, so why don't we make BK doc unique this way?

My idea is that when u unlock the tiger tank in command tree, you get a call in ability of instantly getting 2 tigers from off-map for around 1500-1800mp? This way they act in "blitzkrieg way", you get them fast, they are a punch to break a hole in enemy front. Overwhelming with numbers as soon as possible. A true tigergruppe.

BK doc has always been about rushing panzer IV, later it becomes useless imo. What if we make tigers act like panzers but in later game? Making them cost only mp still makes u choose either to spam panzers or choose tiger group. That is some more flexibility and freedom than linear approach that we have had until now. And over 1500 mp is still really a lot, considering that WH is not cheap.

idea not bad.

but i think the bottom line of the story is tigers and panthers and king tiger or tiger ace should require less command points. because they cost really a lot now. and from realisric point of view tigers are early war tanks. so it will be nice to have tiger ace after 6 or 7 command points instead of 9 command points now.

[Shanks]

it's obvious that bk champion was just kidding, two tigers for that amount of MP would destroy your butt, the tiger is fine like this, I just feel that keeping fully equipped WM infantry is not worth it and this is just what you it subtracts power (for example I think that in 2 cp the infantry of bk should already be able to use camouflage, to be able to move them in camouflage), the doctrine of terror is a joke and is not well organized, the nebel is another joke, but the tanks of these doctrines are good but the King Tiger needs a precision adjustment, many of his shots do not hit for some reason, the weakness of the axis lies in the costly maintenance of his infantry, while the allies could comfortably wait from his defensive line in camouflage with inf and sniper, destroying everything with arty (105 mm or airplanes), which for WM is difficult because it needs def doc for compare to those doctrines .... anyway I can say, that if you combine PE with WM you could have very good results, although not as good as Britanicos and USA

Note:the British have Achilles in all doctrines.