Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

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MEFISTO
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Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MEFISTO » 22 Dec 2018, 00:33

Hello guys I would like to know if when you use your specialized Armor engineer or CW engineer with the repair ability, it increases the HP of the vehicle that you repair while the repair line is white, if it increase the HP of the vehicle, by how much does it increase?

This question comes to me when I saw a PIV.H (550mp/450MP-80-55 fuel when you upgrade in bk doctrine) destroy Helcat (380 mp-40 fuel) with 1 shoot but when you use your engineer and over repair the Helcat (white line) it can face an PIV H easily and destroy it without use his Camouflage ability or flanking speed. I will try it with the M10 too. (low armor both)

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 22 Dec 2018, 00:46

Yeah we played together, my Pz4 H took only 1/5 of Hellcat vet4 HP, was pretty redicilous

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MarKr
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MarKr » 22 Dec 2018, 01:01

Yes, the over repairs increase the HP of vehicles. The ammount depends on "tier" of the vehicle. Lower-tier units get less, higher-tier units get more. I will check it when I am on my laptop and tell you exactly.
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kwok
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby kwok » 22 Dec 2018, 01:02

Depending on the unit that does the over repair and what unit is being repaired, it increases approx 150-200 hp. This means effectively being able to take 1 extra shot from nearly any source.
This is as intended otherwise there's no point in over-repairing. I see what you're saying though, how would you balance the situation?

MEFISTO
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MEFISTO » 22 Dec 2018, 01:32

Before, when you had your "AP" penetration bonus you can still destroy an over-repairing Helcat but not now, it just increase your penetration chance (I am fine with that) but it is not fair for WM even if you use AP you will lose your tank even if the Helcat is not on camouflage or trying to flank your tank, and this ability (over-repairing) does not cost anything (only in CW when you upgrade your engineers) I am not saying that it has to cost something, looking for an idea to balance this, you can help with this guys, or may be I am wrong.

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Shanks
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby Shanks » 22 Dec 2018, 02:00

kwok wrote:I see what you're saying though, how would you balance the situation?


reducing the price of the panzer H, or reducing the damage of the hellcat .. what I mean is that the hellcat is a small achilles but only in ambush

MEFISTO
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MEFISTO » 22 Dec 2018, 02:45

Shanks wrote:
kwok wrote:I see what you're saying though, how would you balance the situation?


reducing the price of the panzer H, or reducing the damage of the hellcat .. what I mean is that the hellcat is a small achilles but only in ambush

I do not think that it is the solution bro! PIV H is already a good armor and the helcat is a TH it must have a good cannon 76mm but to use in camouflage or using speed to flank because it has a weak armor.

yser
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby yser » 22 Dec 2018, 04:12

Did u know that also hellcat can kill stug 1 shoot +hellcat has no aim time so pzv4H aginzt hellcat is 80%win aginst hellcat and with over reapaire its anoying hellcat should died 1shoot by pz4 cause its armor very very week,i play a 1V1aginst tiger he keep spam a hellcat and destroy my stug4 from front u may ask how this happed?
Well its the aim time he shoot and run befor stug shoot i like to show u the video but i dont have,anyway my opinon is to low hellcat health well be good.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 Dec 2018, 05:10

Hellcat is fine that way, is not even that cheap and its only non-limited in armor doc.

MEFISTO
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MEFISTO » 22 Dec 2018, 06:32

mofetagalactica wrote:Hellcat is fine that way, is not even that cheap and its only non-limited in armor doc.

NO it is not fine

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MarKr
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MarKr » 22 Dec 2018, 10:15

I guess it would be possible to set the game so that the over-repair would not be possible to use on certain vehicles, but people will then cry why Axis TDs such as JPIV can have it and US/CW ones cannot.
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The New BK Champion
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby The New BK Champion » 22 Dec 2018, 10:37

MarKr wrote:I guess it would be possible to set the game so that the over-repair would not be possible to use on certain vehicles, but people will then cry why Axis TDs such as JPIV can have it and US/CW ones cannot.

But axis can't overrepair at all. It might sometimes happen as a side effect when u repair your tanks with many pioneers squads, but there is no unit that can overrepair on the axis side

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MarKr
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MarKr » 22 Dec 2018, 11:22

Actually, you're right. I forgot that the "improved rapairs" don't mean "over-repair" for Axis.
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Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 22 Dec 2018, 11:35

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:Yeah we played together, my Pz4 H took only 1/5 of Hellcat vet4 HP, was pretty redicilous

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 22 Dec 2018, 15:56

You can't oneshot most vet 4 tanks because at that vet they get -25% damage reduction (it means 25% more HP in most cases). Imagine P4 H with -25% damage reduction from vet 4, than -25% damage reduction from zimmerit, than another -15% damage reduction from tank commanders; crazy stuff. You can tank lots of 90mm shots with that thing. Jagdpanthers literally become invincible at vet 4. They can walk up to a pershing and not fire a shot at all until they are next to it. Then kill it no problem and go back to base to repair whatever measly damage the 90mm gun did to it.

I've been thinking, maybe we should just replace the damage reduction tanks get at vet 4 (because it makes some tanks ridiculous) with an acceleration buff. So at every vet level you instead get improved acceleration indicating how the tank crews get better at controlling the tank.

Maybe hellcat can go down to 400 HP instead of 500 but then gets flank speed in return with a certain vet (vet 2 maybe)? M10's with flank speed seem way better than M18's anyway because they aren't so fragile they die to a single 20mm cannon shooting at them. Or maybe reduce its HP and make it cost exactly the same as M10 since one is not necessarily better than the other in that case.

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Viper
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby Viper » 22 Dec 2018, 16:17

MenciusMoldbug wrote:I've been thinking, maybe we should just replace the damage reduction tanks get at vet 4 (because it makes some tanks ridiculous) with an acceleration buff. So at every vet level you instead get improved acceleration indicating how the tank crews get better at controlling the tank.

i don't think this is good idea. if any tank has max veteran level. there is nothing crazy if the survival chance is high.
max level units should be harder to kill or 1 shot. it's the reward for reaching max level. so nothing is wrong with that.
and max level units are rare. it's not easy to reach max level. so the damage reduction at max level is fine in my opinion.

about zimmerit unlock. since you talk about it. i think it can be removed.
but then panzer4 in tank hunter should have price reduction unlock like in blitzkrieg doctrine. i mean mass production.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Dec 2018, 18:06

MenciusMoldbug wrote:I've been thinking, maybe we should just replace the damage reduction tanks get at vet 4 (because it makes some tanks ridiculous) with an acceleration buff. So at every vet level you instead get improved acceleration indicating how the tank crews get better at controlling the tank.


yeah, agreed.


Viper wrote:i don't think this is good idea. if any tank has max veteran level. there is nothing crazy if the survival chance is high.
max level units should be harder to kill or 1 shot. it's the reward for reaching max level. so nothing is wrong with that.
and max level units are rare. it's not easy to reach max level. so the damage reduction at max level is fine in my opinion.



"reward" ?! I mean imagine you are an experienced tanker with your crew, what you guess gets better? The aiming, reload, tank handling and stuff like that. But incoming shots and hits is nothing you handle better just bc you are "experienced".... "oh, gosh, that shell went right into my head.... good that i am experienced with it, it doesnt hurt anymore"... or...."our ammo racks got hit!"..... "dont worry, they will not blow up, we are exprienced now."


A vet 3 commander and vet 4 tank turns a 800 damage 90 mm gun into a 510 damage gun.... with zimmerit its going to be like hitting a tank IV with a 57 mm gun.


about zimmerit unlock. since you talk about it. i think it can be removed.
but then panzer4 in tank hunter should have price reduction unlock like in blitzkrieg doctrine. i mean mass production.



they have vet 1 unlock... or rather, vet 1,5 upgrade. You need to kill just two or three more soldiers and your tank is at vet 2.


If you put tank commanders into your tanks and then unlocking tank vet upgrade, your tank does not only gain vet 1 but also your commander is vet 2 (applies for all factions). So its not hard to get a vet 2 tank IV with vet 2 or 3 commander.


anyway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It2r1q4x4y4

Watch this game, esspecially min 32:55 onwards to like min 34:30 and again.... two totally misplayed tank IV´s that get flanked and outmaneuverd and badly controled without any support of inf or AA tanks can cause such a havoc, esspecially bouncing 76 shots. In this game the tank IV´s bounced most or even all 76 shots fired from range. At min 38:10 the tank IV triggers an ambush and takes it out..


In TH doc you have access to vet 1 unlock (that you can abuse with commanders as described) and a bunch of cheap td´s that can back them up.
You also get advanced repairs for all your inf unlike BK doc (or AB/inf doc). So i dont see, with tank IV´s current standard performance, what you want to "compensate for".


Edit: The entire system of "over-repairs", damage reduction etc needs a deeper look. Its a little bit too weird and has a too big impact on the game. over 100 extra HP for simple overrepair doesnt seem correct.... i mean thats more than first sandbags add to it and medium tanks become some sort of heavy tanks. Doesnt seem correct to me.

But also stuff like zimmerit and other massive damage reduction modifiers looking just wrong.... I mean lets take as example a max vet e8, sandbags and overrep. It starts at 700 HP and with sandbags and overrep it ends up at roughly 900 HP+ 15% and 25% taken damage reduction...

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Viper
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby Viper » 22 Dec 2018, 18:50

Warhawks97 wrote:"reward" ?! I mean imagine you are an experienced tanker with your crew, what you guess gets better? The aiming, reload, tank handling and stuff like that. But incoming shots and hits is nothing you handle better just bc you are "experienced".... "oh, gosh, that shell went right into my head.... good that i am experienced with it, it doesnt hurt anymore"... or...."our ammo racks got hit!"..... "dont worry, they will not blow up, we are exprienced now."


A vet 3 commander and vet 4 tank turns a 800 damage 90 mm gun into a 510 damage gun.... with zimmerit its going to be like hitting a tank IV with a 57 mm gun.

this is only true from a realistic point of view. but if you apply realistic thoughts too much. you will end up deleting the game.
because you will find out how you can never make the game realistic. cause it's a game. and can never be like reality.

you can tweak zimmerit. and over_repair. but damage reduction for tanks at max level makes sense.
no one will want to see his max level tank die with 1 hit or 2 hits. already i can see people complain about losing their tanks with 1 or 2 simple hits in other topics. imagine this happens with max level too. these people will uninstall the game then. so max level tanks should be harder to kill.
just like max level infantry. you don't get max level units to die just as fast as without veteran levels..................

Warhawks97 wrote:they have vet 1 unlock... or rather, vet 1,5 upgrade. You need to kill just two or three more soldiers and your tank is at vet 2.


If you put tank commanders into your tanks and then unlocking tank vet upgrade, your tank does not only gain vet 1 but also your commander is vet 2 (applies for all factions). So its not hard to get a vet 2 tank IV with vet 2 or 3 commander.

shermans get the same. in addition to boost the rate for gaining more levels. where is the problem?


Warhawks97 wrote:anyway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It2r1q4x4y4

Watch this game, esspecially min 32:55 onwards to like min 34:30 and again.... two totally misplayed tank IV´s that get flanked and outmaneuverd and badly controled without any support of inf or AA tanks can cause such a havoc, esspecially bouncing 76 shots. In this game the tank IV´s bounced most or even all 76 shots fired from range. At min 38:10 the tank IV triggers an ambush and takes it out..


In TH doc you have access to vet 1 unlock (that you can abuse with commanders as described) and a bunch of cheap td´s that can back them up.
You also get advanced repairs for all your inf unlike BK doc (or AB/inf doc). So i dont see, with tank IV´s current standard performance, what you want to "compensate for".

i cant visit youtube now. but if you talk about the video tiger uploaded yesterday. i watched it.
but what havoc you mean? all the panzer4 tanks died. and 2 panthers died without need for airstrikes......so what havoc do you mean?


Warhawks97 wrote:Edit: The entire system of "over-repairs", damage reduction etc needs a deeper look. Its a little bit too weird and has a too big impact on the game. over 100 extra HP for simple overrepair doesnt seem correct.... i mean thats more than first sandbags add to it and medium tanks become some sort of heavy tanks. Doesnt seem correct to me.

But also stuff like zimmerit and other massive damage reduction modifiers looking just wrong.... I mean lets take as example a max vet e8, sandbags and overrep. It starts at 700 HP and with sandbags and overrep it ends up at roughly 900 HP+ 15% and 25% taken damage reduction...

the damage reduction system is big part of the "game" and without it. the game will be very boring. everything will die with 1 or 2 hits.
even max level units....................

so like i said. you can tweak over_repair and zimmerit. but damage reduction on units with max veterancy level, is very logical for the "game".

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Warhawks97
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Re: Armor engineer and CW over repair ability

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Dec 2018, 19:03

Viper wrote:this is only true from a realistic point of view. but if you apply realistic thoughts too much. you will end up deleting the game.
because you will find out how you can never make the game realistic. cause it's a game. and can never be like reality.

you can tweak zimmerit. and over_repair. but damage reduction for tanks at max level makes sense.
no one will want to see his max level tank die with 1 hit or 2 hits. already i can see people complain about losing their tanks with 1 or 2 simple hits in other topics. imagine this happens with max level too. these people will uninstall the game then. so max level tanks should be harder to kill.
just like max level infantry. you don't get max level units to die just as fast as without veteran levels..................


this is what bugs me most in BK. Units reach max vet and are suddenly zombies or super humans.... you can start making horrible errors and still escape realtively saftey..... goes also for inf.... i had moments where i blocked the retreat path of some of these "super humans" with sub-machinegun equiped units and these guys still made it through no matter how close they got.

And where is it fun for the gameplay to create the utlimate ambush with a hellstorm of guns, artillery and infantry-rockets and these tanks still get way bc..... oh, they are "experienced".

shermans get the same. in addition to boost the rate for gaining more levels. where is the problem?


yes, i said "applies to all factions". But shermans in general do not stand so remarkably well and are in terms of cost well placed so far. Tank IV´s so far do, mostly bc of their higher chance to bounce 76 guns and bazookas. So i dont know what you want.
A Tank IV H with current armor for the cost of a 76 sherman and vet unlock?



i cant visit youtube now. but if you talk about the video tiger uploaded yesterday. i watched it.
bu what havoc you mean? all the panzer4 tanks died. and 2 panthers died without need for airstrikes......so what havoc do you mean?


These tanks got totally misplayed, send without inf support and getting flanked. Still they shot up a sherman, damaged and almost killed m10.
Imagine M10 would of been a stug 3 in rapid fire mode and the sherman some sort of tank IV and the infantry a gren squad with schreck or even two .. and the two tank IV 76 shermans... they both would of died quickly without any need to get flanked.

and the panther was also simply outplayed.


the damage reduction system is big part of the "game" and without it. the game will be very boring. everything will die with 1 or 2 hits.
even max level units....................

so like i said. you can tweak over_repair and zimmerit. but damage reduction on units with max veterancy level, is very logical for the "game".



As is said, to some degree it might be ok for me (but mostly for inf like when a soldier gets a hit but able to withstand it due to experience, training etc.

But the current heavy stacks of damage reduction modifers creates a situations where one side plays vcoh, the other BK mod.
Its basically the same as with cost: Cost or in this case veterancy beats out tactical sanity.


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