Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

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mofetagalactica
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby mofetagalactica » 21 Dec 2018, 06:56

Well, if riflemens nade is suddently op i guess wh at squad is also op lol, they behave the same while the riflemen has to wait for every shoot and pay for it. And lets no forget that the AT wh squad has a fucking mp40 so its not like its completely useless againts other inf, lol.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby MarKr » 21 Dec 2018, 09:31

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:That's right, but there are two things. As ability is almost with no fail chance (although I never saw show was missed), it means every shot will get into the target and here we want to abuse that thing, since halftracks and armored vehicles are need two HEAT rounds to be destroyed. Make two sprinting rifles, two HEAT shots - BOOM and every spent ammunition is not wasted, since you inflict an armored unit loss for the enemy.
Hmmm...so the problem is that a basic infantry has an AT ability that misses very rarely and can destroy armored cars and halftracks...doesn't that sound similar to Volks and their Panzerfaust? It is basic infantry, need to get upgrade to use it, it is pay-per-shot (only 35 ammo; you say you need 2x Riflemen and each HEAT grenade costs 25 ammo so overall you pay more for this maneuver + more micro), can kill with one shot armored cars and halftracks and is also effective against medium tanks and unlike the grenades, Panzerfaust is set in such way that it misses even less often than the riflegrenade.
Yes, Panzerfaust has lower range but you said that you "sprint with the Riflemen" so you get them closer anyway. So if put together all the costs (MP for units + ammo for upgrades + ammo to shoot the ability), and considering that Fausts are stronger and remain effective even when medium tanks start to show up, isn't WM still coming out of this comparison with an advantage?

Viper wrote:and i think it is too much because it makes every rifleman squad "anti tank boys" and if this comes together with improved 50cal is too much counter for panzer elite. i dont know what happens if you add british anti tank boys too.
This would be true only if BOYS had to pay for every shot, they don't.

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:Nah, they should have their 100% accuracy, tho their range is a bit too much for just a self-defence from a rushing armored cars
If you drop the range even to 55 (from current 60), you get again to the point where the Scout cars (or whatever Axis light vehicle with MG) can just stay at max range and keep shooting. Riflemen cannot use the "defensive" weapon anymore because they are out of range, and if they try to get out of cover and come closer, they will get suppressed in a second. The HEAT grenades are meant to be sort of secondary ealry AT - limited usage due to pay-per-shot but still somewhat effective to keep the early armored threats at bay and it cannot work like that if it keeps missing every other shot or if it has short range so that there will be no chance to actually use it.

Shanks wrote:True, although the volks have panzerfauts .... but I feel somehow that the riflemen are stronger, because the panzerfaust is not vs inf, but the rifle-grenade is good vs inf and light vehicles
I thought we made the HEAT only targetable at vehicles but after check I can see it is not. This will be changed so that it can only be used against vehicles.

Mr. FeministDonut wrote: I just say that their range is too damn high, you getting no risk in killing vehicles
Here applies same what I've said above - if you drop the range then the HEAT grenade will be useless again. We could turn it the other way too - if you drop the range of HEAT grenade, your vehicles face no risk when killing the infantry. This would be ok if the infantry had no AT capacity but when you pay ammo to get some AT capacity for your squad then you expect the upgrade to have some impact.

Viper wrote:yes. i just tested. the problem is the travel time......
accuracy is ok and range too.

but the travel time is crazy. faster than bullet.
"Travel time" does not mean anything. The grenade uses the same "targetting system" as e.g. bazookas - if the engine calculates a hit, the shot hits the target no matter if the target is moving or not (the complaints about "guided bazooka rockets") so the travel speed is set high here so that the "guided" effect is not so eye-hitting. But even if we lower the projectile speed to the speed of thrown hand grenade the hit-rate will not change.

Viper wrote:the whermacht anti tank rifle is like the cw anti tank boys.
but the rifle grenade is a rifle grenade, so it should be like piat. not anti tank rifle. so the travel time need to be slower.
It is not. WM has a rifle called "GrB39" which is "Granatbüchse" - grenade launcher. The original model was PzB "Panzerbüchse" which fired "bullets" and so would be comparable to BOYS but the Pzb was reworked into GrB which was literarly a grenade launcher comparable to the riflegrenades such as the one the US uses in the game.

Viper wrote:second. it can 1 shot most panzer elite armored cars. and marder3 can die with 1 hit too.
MarderIII is an oversight and will be fixed (though it is not that big problem due to how seldom it is used), but what other PE armored cars get "1 shot"? The grenade deals 100-140 damage per hit and the HT and armored cars have a bit over 300HP + the crit tables don't allow there for "1 shots" so from what I can tell it should be literarly impossible to 1shot a full HP armored car with the grenade :?
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby The New BK Champion » 21 Dec 2018, 10:39

One shoting is imagination.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby MarKr » 21 Dec 2018, 10:45

It can one shot Schwimwagens, Motorbikes, perhaps some unarmored units too. Full HP halftracks and armored cars should not be able toget killed with a single shot, though. If anyone has a replay or a video where that happened, post it here so I can investigate but IF that really happens, it is most likely an oversight or bug.
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 21 Dec 2018, 15:30

Never saw it could one shot something, even schwimms, not sure about bike tho
Thing is sprint is more like a surprise element or for getting quick into a needed range, so enemy could have less time to react. If enemy doesn't have a recon, armored car will sure get fucked up, as there are totally no RNG aspect(I am really doubt that they are have a miss chance). I am myself allied player and mostly playing US, I just see that abusing early-mid game, that I don't think its anyhow fair to axis.

Panzerfausts are different thing, they don't have shooting range of typical infantry squad to activate the ability, like the HEAT projectiles and micro is not a problem at all. You use 2x rifleman as a blob and since they have same upgrades, it will show for them on UI same commands for both units and unlike in coh2, pressing one button for both units make all units force your order.
If you support your AT gun with HEAT rifleman (if they had lower range), it would anyway defend your AT from being incircled by armored cars. If you suppose that anything comes a tier higher than a armored car, I would say that US player should have another counters as the greyhounds and other guns

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Shanks » 21 Dec 2018, 16:18

your file is definitely damaged

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 21 Dec 2018, 16:44

Shanks wrote:your file is definitely damaged

I can run it fine :/

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Viper » 21 Dec 2018, 17:55

MarKr wrote:MarderIII is an oversight and will be fixed

ok. good.

MarKr wrote:but what other PE armored cars get "1 shot"? The grenade deals 100-140 damage per hit and the HT and armored cars have a bit over 300HP + the crit tables don't allow there for "1 shots" so from what I can tell it should be literarly impossible to 1shot a full HP armored car with the grenade :?

i saw the 222 armored car with 20mm die with 1 hit many times.
or survive heavily crippled with few health and damaged engine.
so anything with 50cal can follow up and finish it with half burst.

the ability now behave like "accurate long range anti tank grenade shot" and can also fly over buildings and hedgerows with 100% precision.......
problem is mortar halftracks have no chance. riflemen dont even need to come close.

MarKr wrote:"Travel time" does not mean anything. The grenade uses the same "targetting system" as e.g. bazookas - if the engine calculates a hit, the shot hits the target no matter if the target is moving or not (the complaints about "guided bazooka rockets") so the travel speed is set high here so that the "guided" effect is not so eye-hitting. But even if we lower the projectile speed to the speed of thrown hand grenade the hit-rate will not change.

i know about the engine calculation. but the guided bazooka or panzershreck rockets dont always happen. with faster speed. it will always happen.
but the reaction time allowed for the opponent player can still always help. enough reaction time can deny the engine calculation sometimes.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Dec 2018, 18:21

The rifle nade doesnt deal enough damage (or shouldnt) to oneshot a mortar HT. So when it hits a unit behind a wall, it still shouldnt die outright... and rushing with two squads requires two upgrades and abilites to be used and puting the squad at risk to get shred by forward infantry units.

it can be discussed though whether they should be able to fire over bushes etc or not.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby MarKr » 21 Dec 2018, 18:51

Viper wrote:i know about the engine calculation. but the guided bazooka or panzershreck rockets dont always happen. with faster speed. it will always happen.
but the reaction time allowed for the opponent player can still always help. enough reaction time can deny the engine calculation sometimes.
Wait, what? :? You say you understand the calculations but then the next sentence seems to show you don't.
Before the rocket/grenade is even spawned, the game calculates if the shot hits or not, the rocket is then just an animation. Once the grenade/rocket is visible in the game, it had already been calculated if the shot is a hit or a miss. Therefore the speed of the projectile plays no role other than visual effect. It does not matter if you move your vehicle (the "reaction time" as you call it) after the projectile has been spawned - if the result of the calculation had been a "hit" the projectile will hit no matter if you move the unit or not, if the result of the calculation had been "miss" it will miss no matter if you move the unit or not.

Sure, you can drive away from the unit before it fires but then there is no projectile and thus in such case the projectile speed also plays no role.
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Viper » 21 Dec 2018, 19:16

this is not entirely true.

the game engine will calculate if it will hit or not long before the rocket spawn. correct.
but if the player takes action against this calculation result. the calculation can be canceled or denied.

let me give you very simple example. piats.
the engine will calculate the shell is going to hit this vehicle. if it doesnt move.
when it moves according to the player reaction during the first calculation.
another calculation will be conducted. which can deny the first one.

same with bazooka and panzershreck.
if the engine calculate a hit. yes it will hit. but if the player takes action and moves his unit
(specifically right and left directions. not backward and forward.....)
there is a chance another calculation will interfere to replace the first calculation.

the panzershreck and bazooka rockets for example have maximum travel distance. if the player's vehicle is fast enough to avoid the rocket and drives beyond the maximum rocket travel distance (even when it is guided) based on the player reaction.......
there will be still a chance to break this calculation. and cause the rocket to miss. with a new calculation.

another example........
when a vehicle shoots another. and engine calculates a hit.......but suddenly player moves another vehicle in time and passes in front of the target. another immediate calculation will be kicked off with chance to hit the crossing vehicle. you can ask a relic expert. he will confirm what i say ;)

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Dec 2018, 20:38

Viper wrote:this is not entirely true.

the game engine will calculate if it will hit or not long before the rocket spawn. correct.
but if the player takes action against this calculation result. the calculation can be canceled or denied.

let me give you very simple example. piats.
the engine will calculate the shell is going to hit this vehicle. if it doesnt move.
when it moves according to the player reaction during the first calculation.
another calculation will be conducted. which can deny the first one.

same with bazooka and panzershreck.
if the engine calculate a hit. yes it will hit. but if the player takes action and moves his unit
(specifically right and left directions. not backward and forward.....)
there is a chance another calculation will interfere to replace the first calculation.

the panzershreck and bazooka rockets for example have maximum travel distance. if the player's vehicle is fast enough to avoid the rocket and drives beyond the maximum rocket travel distance (even when it is guided) based on the player reaction.......
there will be still a chance to break this calculation. and cause the rocket to miss. with a new calculation.

another example........
when a vehicle shoots another. and engine calculates a hit.......but suddenly player moves another vehicle in time and passes in front of the target. another immediate calculation will be kicked off with chance to hit the crossing vehicle. you can ask a relic expert. he will confirm what i say ;)



As far as i know its not.... i mean i did see vehicles suddenly intefere with a shot but the shots went through the same way as you can attack targets staying behind another.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Shanks » 21 Dec 2018, 21:04

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:
Shanks wrote:your file is definitely damaged

I can run it fine :/



now I remember that there are some maps that you can not upload to the forum, because the repetition is automatically damaged

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby mofetagalactica » 21 Dec 2018, 21:05

Off topic: whats the difference on greyhound with and without skirts? I don't really notice any difference since armor is inexistant.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby kwok » 21 Dec 2018, 21:11

Warhawks97 wrote:
Viper wrote:this is not entirely true.

the game engine will calculate if it will hit or not long before the rocket spawn. correct.
but if the player takes action against this calculation result. the calculation can be canceled or denied.

let me give you very simple example. piats.
the engine will calculate the shell is going to hit this vehicle. if it doesnt move.
when it moves according to the player reaction during the first calculation.
another calculation will be conducted. which can deny the first one.

same with bazooka and panzershreck.
if the engine calculate a hit. yes it will hit. but if the player takes action and moves his unit
(specifically right and left directions. not backward and forward.....)
there is a chance another calculation will interfere to replace the first calculation.

the panzershreck and bazooka rockets for example have maximum travel distance. if the player's vehicle is fast enough to avoid the rocket and drives beyond the maximum rocket travel distance (even when it is guided) based on the player reaction.......
there will be still a chance to break this calculation. and cause the rocket to miss. with a new calculation.

another example........
when a vehicle shoots another. and engine calculates a hit.......but suddenly player moves another vehicle in time and passes in front of the target. another immediate calculation will be kicked off with chance to hit the crossing vehicle. you can ask a relic expert. he will confirm what i say ;)



As far as i know its not.... i mean i did see vehicles suddenly intefere with a shot but the shots went through the same way as you can attack targets staying behind another.


It’s not 100% right. It’s true that there are two calculations but the second calc will not cancel the first one for most weapons if not all weapon types. I have a post somewhere describing it. I’ll find it, it’s in bloc but I’m away from a computer and it’s hard to navigate the forum on a phone


EDIT: found it. but markr pretty much said all of it. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1526
Last edited by kwok on 21 Dec 2018, 22:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby MarKr » 21 Dec 2018, 21:15

Who is this relic expert you speak of? If they are willing to answer few questions, I would be glad to ask a few.

Anyway, as far as I know, the calculation happens before the shot is fired and then it is final. When the hit chance is calculated and the target is moving, the penalty for moving target (if there is some) is applied. When the calculation is finished, the projectile (if there is some) is spawned and at this point it does not matter if the target stops (so at this point the system would need to re-calculate and probably roll a higher chance to hit) or keeps moving, the decision if the shot is hit or miss is still the same. The only factors that might come into play are collison and scatter. Due to collision factor the projectile might hit some object on its trajectory when the projectile is at set range from the target - this means that, theoretically, if the shot is fired and you manage to move the target in such a direction that the "guided" shot's trajectory now crosses some object (bush, rock, trees etc.) with which it can collide, it will hit the object instead, but given the fact that I doubt you know which objects are set to collide and which not and also the speed of the projectiles (even bazooka/schreck rockets) you will not be able to use this intentionally for your advantage, maybe some low percentage of lucky cases but hardly intentions. Here remains the truth that moving the target after the shot is fired does not affect the chance to hit it.
Scatter is applied in case the shot calculates a miss and still counts on the collision factor but here it is again matter of luck and still depends on the hit/miss calculations in the first place.

I think it is possible to set the projectile to not be "guided" (and then moving a unit after the shot is fired would result in a miss even when "hit" was calculated) but as far as I know, no direct shooting weapon in the game is set that way because with this setting they become utterly useless because all you need to do against them is keep moving and then the chance to hit drops pretty much to 0%.

mofetagalactica wrote:Off topic: whats the difference on greyhound with and without skirts? I don't really notice any difference since armor is inexistant.
Skirts on Greyhound add extra HP.
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Viper » 21 Dec 2018, 23:33

MarKr wrote:Who is this relic expert you speak of? If they are willing to answer few questions, I would be glad to ask a few.


if you visit coh2.org website you will find relic members there.
and the wikinger mod discord server has many relic members too. some of them i contacted for long time.


it is always better to allow the player some space for reaction time if possible. even if you dont believe it makes a difference.
very short travel time will make new players confused too. they will not know what hits them because it is very hard to see now.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby MarKr » 22 Dec 2018, 00:57

Making the projectile slower makes no difference, it is not a question of what I believe, it is a fact because there is nothing to react to - if the game calculates a hit, it will either hit you quickly (current speed) or a bit slower (what you want), it does not matter where you place or move your unit, it will be hit.

I doubt the "confusion of new players" would be a thing - new players can simply ask what hit them, team mates will tell them. It will be no more confusing than watching the the tracer of the grenade "curve" and "chase" the target.
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Viper » 22 Dec 2018, 04:05

MarKr wrote:I doubt the "confusion of new players" would be a thing - new players can simply ask what hit them, team mates will tell them. It will be no more confusing than watching the the tracer of the grenade "curve" and "chase" the target.

curve or chase is not good. yes. but i think "click for instant explosion" is not good, too.
if bazookas and panzershrecks were made the same. with very little travel time. i dont think anyone will like it.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Jacob_PL » 23 Dec 2018, 13:02

MarKr wrote:Making the projectile slower makes no difference, it is not a question of what I believe, it is a fact because there is nothing to react to - if the game calculates a hit, it will either hit you quickly (current speed) or a bit slower (what you want), it does not matter where you place or move your unit, it will be hit.

Hello.

I am the Relic expert Chifyo (or Viper) talked about.
Worked for Relic Entertainment since it was founded in 1997 in Vancouver, Canada.

COH Tales of Valor (latest build) uses the Essence game engine version 1.0.2.0 which is established by our company.

it is the same game engine used in COH2 but updated version.

I never played Blitzkrieg Mod before, but heard about it of course.

in COH, many factors play a role in how units and weapons behave. Coding is one of the factors, but not the only factor. Modeling, coding, animation, and engine virtual physics (EVP) all combined, are each playing their roles.

COH coding calculations are mathematically oriented, example, a coder must be familiar with values like this 1.25/0.9/0.85/0.75 which can represent penetration or accuracy chances in the CMD.

For the coders, math is the language they speak.
Case 1 sample: 1 + 1 = 2 // x + y = x y (simple) expected outcome.

But math values like these may not apply in the game if they conflict with the other 3 factors i mentioned.

Ex. with the interference of other factors (especially EVP) the math results can look like this in the game.
Case 2 sample: 1 + 1 = 11 // x + y = v (x & y) (complex) unexpected outcome.

Now going straight to the subject without further ado, the time interval delay (TiD) from the moment a round is fired until it hits, does not affect the accuracy setup in the CMD so it makes no difference in that capacity, as you said.

However, the EVP will affect the integrity of the animation when computing the TiD to the target. So if the weapon round is very fast or very slow and does not match the EVP standards, the Essense game engine EVP technology can dismiss the calculations from the CMD and result in unexpected outcome like i explained in case 2 above. And if EVP fails to create a result, the game will crash, and it is only the coder's fault when he is unaware about the EVP essentials in relation to the CMD numeric.

Life example from COH, is mortars.
If the time interval is very minimal, mortar rounds will fall from the sky at the requested destination too rapidly in accordance, not affecting accuracy, but affecting the player's reaction time to flee with his targeted unit from that bombarded zone under barrage.

in short, time interval does not affect accuracy, but what Chifyo (Viper) said about player reaction time, is correct. it can make a difference based on the EVP pattern.

I hope my information was useful.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby The New BK Champion » 23 Dec 2018, 14:15

Wow, it's incredible! Very interesting information thank you! It would be terrific to have you here with us when we discuss stuff about the game. I can only wonder how many things you could teach us, and devs in particular of course, in order to make our mod much less buggy and optimalised! Please would you kindly view our forum from time to time :)?

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby MarKr » 23 Dec 2018, 17:26

Hello, and welcome.

I know that math isn't the only thing affecting the outcome. I learned that when we were implementing the GrB39 - at first it did not matter what accuracy was set in files, it was always 100% accurate (even when accuracy was set directly to "0" and spread was also set huge) - this one gave me headaches for few days.

It does not seem that what I said was wrong, though. Viper kept saying that projectile speed should be lower so that "players can react" and you wrote yourself:
Jacob_PL wrote:the time interval delay (TiD) from the moment a round is fired until it hits, does not affect the accuracy setup in the CMD so it makes no difference in that capacity, as you said.
So even if the projectile speed is set lower, it might give to players "time to react" but no matter how the player reacts, the shot will still hit if the game rolled "hit" and will only lead to players complaining about "laser-guided grenades".

Based on what you said one thing that could theoretically be influenced by the projectile speed is the accuracy - some people reported that the shot "never misses" even when the accuracy is set to about 70%. It could be the case that, due to this
Jacob_PL wrote:Ex. with the interference of other factors (especially EVP) the math results can look like this in the game.
Case 2 sample: 1 + 1 = 11 // x + y = v (x & y) (complex) unexpected outcome.
the projectile speed somehow overwrites the accuracy settings. I will test it to see if it is the case. However even if if it were the case, then lowering the projectile speed might lead to the weapon missing shots more often but the "reaction time" for players will still not affect anything.
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby maaa1939 » 23 Dec 2018, 20:16

Jacob_PL wrote:
MarKr wrote:Making the projectile slower makes no difference, it is not a question of what I believe, it is a fact because there is nothing to react to - if the game calculates a hit, it will either hit you quickly (current speed) or a bit slower (what you want), it does not matter where you place or move your unit, it will be hit.

Hello.

I am the Relic expert Chifyo (or Viper) talked about.
Worked for Relic Entertainment since it was founded in 1997 in Vancouver, Canada.

COH Tales of Valor (latest build) uses the Essence game engine version 1.0.2.0 which is established by our company.

it is the same game engine used in COH2 but updated version.

I never played Blitzkrieg Mod before, but heard about it of course.

in COH, many factors play a role in how units and weapons behave. Coding is one of the factors, but not the only factor. Modeling, coding, animation, and engine virtual physics (EVP) all combined, are each playing their roles.

COH coding calculations are mathematically oriented, example, a coder must be familiar with values like this 1.25/0.9/0.85/0.75 which can represent penetration or accuracy chances in the CMD.

For the coders, math is the language they speak.
Case 1 sample: 1 + 1 = 2 // x + y = x y (simple) expected outcome.

But math values like these may not apply in the game if they conflict with the other 3 factors i mentioned.

Ex. with the interference of other factors (especially EVP) the math results can look like this in the game.
Case 2 sample: 1 + 1 = 11 // x + y = v (x & y) (complex) unexpected outcome.

Now going straight to the subject without further ado, the time interval delay (TiD) from the moment a round is fired until it hits, does not affect the accuracy setup in the CMD so it makes no difference in that capacity, as you said.

However, the EVP will affect the integrity of the animation when computing the TiD to the target. So if the weapon round is very fast or very slow and does not match the EVP standards, the Essense game engine EVP technology can dismiss the calculations from the CMD and result in unexpected outcome like i explained in case 2 above. And if EVP fails to create a result, the game will crash, and it is only the coder's fault when he is unaware about the EVP essentials in relation to the CMD numeric.

Life example from COH, is mortars.
If the time interval is very minimal, mortar rounds will fall from the sky at the requested destination too rapidly in accordance, not affecting accuracy, but affecting the player's reaction time to flee with his targeted unit from that bombarded zone under barrage.

in short, time interval does not affect accuracy, but what Chifyo (Viper) said about player reaction time, is correct. it can make a difference based on the EVP pattern.

I hope my information was useful.

Thanks, for the information and detail dear developer.

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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby Viper » 23 Dec 2018, 22:30

thanks jacob for accepting to drop a few lines here.
Jacob_PL wrote:Life example from COH, is mortars.
If the time interval is very minimal, mortar rounds will fall from the sky at the requested destination too rapidly in accordance, not affecting accuracy, but affecting the player's reaction time to flee with his targeted unit from that bombarded zone under barrage.

this is what i was trying to explain.

and i think this is why the bk devs added ammo price to mortar barrage abilities in their mod. and they made the standard reload time twice higher for all mortars. all that to give the player more time to react.

MarKr wrote:It does not seem that what I said was wrong, though. Viper kept saying that projectile speed should be lower so that "players can react"

so mark. i think we were both right. i was right in one part and you were right about the other. but what i understand from what he said. i think this was the most important piece of text............
Jacob_PL wrote:However, the EVP will affect the integrity of the animation when computing the TiD to the target. So if the weapon round is very fast or very slow and does not match the EVP standards, the Essense game engine EVP technology can dismiss the calculations from the CMD and result in unexpected outcome like i explained in case 2 above. And if EVP fails to create a result, the game will crash, and it is only the coder's fault when he is unaware about the EVP essentials in relation to the CMD numeric.

i think what this means is if you lower the projectile speed. some players can complain about "laser guided grenades" yes. but i think jacob is trying to say the laser guided grenades can not always track the target forever. because the motions of the grenade shell is still limited by the evp system logarithms.

so it can curve a bit or chase the target. but not for too long. if the player is fast enough with his unit to escape. the evp will force the round to give up chasing and hits the dirt. thats what i understood from him.

he always told me "evp > cmd" in essence engine.
and i dont think bk has anyone who can modify evp. because it is part of the engine design. and if you find someone who can modify it. he will not work for free.

The New BK Champion wrote:Please would you kindly view our forum from time to time :)?

i dont think this is an option. he is still working for relic. he came here after a personal request.

maaa1939 wrote:Thanks, for the information and detail dear developer.

are you from the bk discord?

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MarKr
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Re: Rifle AT nade being OP, crushing nazis faces

Postby MarKr » 23 Dec 2018, 23:36

Viper wrote:this is what i was trying to explain.
You're mixing together two things that are not completely same. Mortar projectiles are flagged as "artillery" and they use different calculations for accuracy (at least as far as I know, the sources on this are scatchy but practical tests seem to confirm this). So ofcource, if you set the projectile speed to very little value, the mortar will fire a round and it will land somewhere in the hit-zone in about 0.5 sec. if you combine it with low reload speed it will complete the barrage in few seconds and each shot will land 0.5 seconds after being fired. But as I said - mortars use different accuracy calculations and on top of that the barrage ability does not target units but ground which means that the shots are literarly placed randomly into the hit zone, without actually aiming for some enemy units (so the game does not "roll" for miss/hit vs specific targets) - as a consequence players actually CAN avoid being hit IF they react fast enough. Because of this, fast projectiles and reloads ARE a problem for mortars and other arty because it really leaves to player no time to react.

However the HEAT grenade projectile is not flagged as "artillery" and it is aimed at specific target and because of that it "rolls" for miss/hit and if it rolls a hit, it will simply hit.

Long story short - mortar and grenade projectiles work differently.

Viper wrote:i think what this means is if you lower the projectile speed. some players can complain about "laser guided grenades" yes. but i think jacob is trying to say the laser guided grenades can not always track the target forever. because the motions of the grenade shell is still limited by the evp system logarithms.

so it can curve a bit or chase the target. but not for too long. if the player is fast enough with his unit to escape. the evp will force the round to give up chasing and hits the dirt. thats what i understood from him.
Yes and no. I presume you are right in that the projectile cannot chase the target forever but on the other hand the speeds of units are usually less than "10" (based on unit; I think around 10 have maybe Jeeps but armored cars have around 8 (+ the effect of acceleration in case the vehicle stands still) in ideal conditions where the pathfinding does not stuck it on some obstacle) while speeds of projectiles are usually more than 15. This means that the projectile travels always about twice the speed of vehicles and thus it catches them usually within a second and that means that the projectile does not need to chase the target "forever". So even if you react "fast" you won't be able to "kite" the shot long enough so that it stops following you.
It would be possible if the projectile speed was same or lower than the speed of the target but then the travel speed would be ridiculously low and would look really weird if the grenade was fired at Schwimwagen and the schwim would "outrun" the shot (I believe this could lead to a crash as Jacob_PL described it because in this case there would be no "result" for the shot; just speculation though).

I am just telling you that rolled "hit" is a hit and rolled "miss" is a miss - no matter how you react after the shot is fired. If the speed of the projectile right now is messing up this system, then lowering the projectile speed will simply return it to "normal" behavior, and "normal means "hit is a hit and miss is a miss".

Based on what Jacob_PL said and also based on some people reporting "HEAT never misses" it seems possible that the projectile speed might bypass the accuracy settings and result in always hitting the target so such change might lead to the intended chance to miss, but I really doubt that lowering the speed would allow a player to avoid a shot which was calculated as a "hit".
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