20 mm, 40 mm, 37 mm, Quads

[Warhawks97]

I would like to speak once again about this matter bc i still feel that there are many inconsistencies.

I hadnt time to play pvp in latest version or lets say i had time when nobody else had. So i played comsptomps testing cal 50´s and played one round def doc bc i forgot a bit about their doc tec tree (wanted to make a suggestion here) and figured out that the single 20 mm emplacment whiped out daimlers and stuff easier than the 37 mm does sometimes.


Single 20:
This one is afterall one of the most broken weapons (perhaps some of them behave even differently. The one mounted on pumas and so on have lower rate of fire and lower burst duration. However both have the same reload frequency. In effect that means that the flak 38 fires almost 60 rounds before reload, the vehicle mounted roughly 29 rounds before reload although both actually using magazins. But thats not the biggest deal.

The main prob was that the single flak 38 seemed to kill lighter vehicles easier than a nearby Möbelwagen did or just as good.


And indeed i found flaws... many.

I list it short:

1. Low rate of fire. It has approx the same rate of fire as the Ostwind with 3 rounds in a second (Möbelwagen approx 4 rounds), Aromed car based 20 mm even less.
2. Extrem high damage. In fact the average damage (25-30) is higher than that of Möbelwagen (20-30 Möbelwagen, 25-35 Ostwind) but with higher accuracy. The 20 mm has 50% accuracy vs 35% of the 37 mm guns which is very weird. It also gets massive damage modifier on vehicles and inf of usually 250%.
3. Long bursts of 6.5 seconds.
4. Far better penetration against units like tetrarch than its quad 20 mm brother.
5. Point 1-3 combined makes the damage output against vehicles like greyhound far better than those of 37 mm guns which is fucking weird. It takes 4 pen hits for Ostwind to kill a Greyhound and 5 to kill HT, single 20 mm needs 5 for both. I think the 37 mm should have a clear egde in terms of accuracy at max range as well as damage/pen.


Suggestion:

Standardize the rof of single 20 mm guns. Flak 38 and kwk 38 are the same in regards of performance. If necessary the flak 38 has better reload bc its not in a closed turret.

Fix its rof and accuracy as well as damage. The basic damage is good but the modifier against vehicles is set a bit too high. It should perhaps take roughly 7-8 hits and pens vs greyhound and should less impact like a 30-40 mm canon. That means drop the damage modifier against certain vehicles from 2.5 down to 1.5 or something or remove it entirely. 10 pen hits too kill stuff like greyhound seems fair given the fact that the rof would go up (like doubling) and accuracy down from 0.5 to 0.25-0.3.

It would more be continues damage over bursts instead of "one burst kill" light vehicles.



37 mm Flak 43:


Flaws:

1. Differs in damage and rof from vehicle to vehicle.
2. Somtimes less good vs vehicles like single 20 mm.



Suggestion:

1. Rate of fire should be 4 for all weapons, not just Möbelwagen (not 3)
2. Slight a accuracy buff.
3. Poor damage compared to Bofors gun (which has 35-40 standard)
3. Perhaps make it like Bofors. The flak 37 had no magazin and clips instead which allowed nonstop shooting. Thus make it like bofors which only has cooldown and no reload. Or at least do that for the Ostwind since you see the loader constantly putting ammo clips in.



Quad 20 mm:

Most weird weapon of all:

Flaws:
1. Extrem low damage per bullet (4-5 while US M16 has 15-20). Its voch. In return it gets upped to 12.5 against soldiers due to modifiers in tt.
2. 50% accuracy max range like single 20 mm.
3. Has insane low pen chance vs Tetrarch. It has less than 40% at max range while single 20 mm has 68% pen chance.
4. It has reduced damage modifer against tetrarch of 40%.
5. That combined makes this weapon looking just hilarious compared to single mounts.


Just a short calculation:

4,5 (average damage) x 0.6 (damage modifier vs tetrarch)= 2,7.
320 (tet HP) : 2,7= 118,6 shots to kill it. Rof is 32 and burst duration is 3 seconds makes 96 shots. It cant kill a tet in a 3 sec burst even when every single shot would hit and pen it.

Now single mount:
68,75 damage average per hit against Tetrarch. Makes 5 shots to kill it and more than 50% pen chance.

That means that a single 20 mm with its 18 rounds can technically "one burst kill" even a tetrarch while a quad cant even when RNG would roll out perfect.
Thats nonsense.

On top of that single mount 20 mm guns are cheap compared to quads. Unemplaced cost less than 300 MP. You can place those behind your lines and it will shred any light vehicle attempting to flank you but a quad cant which costs over 300 MP.

And bc of this the Wirbelwind is simply not cost effective as we heared many times in forum already. Recent cost drop request wasnt that long ago.


Lets compare this to the quad cal 50:
The quad cal 50 has 15-20 damage and loses 25% vs vehicles like those wheeled of PE. A burst firs 72 rounds. Thats 945 damage assuming all bullets hit and pen. Accuracy and pen chance will prevent this from happening most likely but its the fact that a 100% lucky RNG roll would allow it to "one burst kill" such vehicles while a quad 20 mm will never be able to is a flaw already.

Suggestion:

1. Take the approach you did with quad cal 50. Higher damage (like 20-25 bc cal 50 has 15-20) and lower accuracy (like 0.2 or so).
2. I am aware about the HE rounds but lets be honest, it wont change much when you set the modifier vs inf from 2.5 down to 1. Also scatters can be adjusted if necessary.

Bofors:

So far this gun is quite realistic in its rate of fire and reload mechanics but it has one major flaw:

It always pens (even tigers) but deals no damage against units like Marder and stuff like that. Its almost like it only fires HE rounds.

Suggestion:

1. Add switch of HE and AP rounds like axis 37 mm guns
2. Or make it pen marders/Nashorns/wespe.


Quad cal 50:

Suggestion:
1. Remove the reduced damage modifier vs vehicles, else single mount cal 50 might be better. The quad has already lower basic damage and higher bounce chances since it has also a pen drop over range.





Overall and final conclusion:

1. Make single 20 mm standardized in rof (which is too low currently) and less "One burst kill" light vehicles by dropping or removing the damage modifiers. It acts too much like a heavy 37/40 mm gun rather than a 20 mm.

2. Bring the quad 20 mm closer to a 20 mm. They dont need the exact same bullet damage but this is nuts. The damage per bullet of a single 20 is at the end 7 times higher vs soldiers and 15 times higher vs vehicles. I know that quads need to behave a bit different to make them not OP but i think they are quads to be better, not quads to compensate lack of damage. A quad 20 mm costs considerably more than a single 20 and wirbelwind even as much as Ostwind. I dont see why it should kept so damn weak. For the sake of realism but also game balance (cost) the quad 20 mm needs to be better (and not made cheaper if you propse that due to latest player requests). For some reason though, it cant bounce from a Greyhound while a single 20 mm can. In terms of pen and damage modifiers in the tt´s all 20 mm should share the same values.

3. Fix 37 mm flak 43. They should share same stats and take an example from the bofors in terms of reload mechanics and also the damage should be more like a 40 mm. The Flak 43 was a beast but thats just partially true for BK.

4. Fix Bofors damage vs stuff like marders and light armored gun platforms. Perhaps add HE/AP switch.

5. Remove the 25% damage reduction modifier from quad cal 50 vs vehicles to bring it in line with single mounts.

6. The difference between a current quad cal 50 and single cal 50 is by far not as huge as single 20 mm and quad 20 mm. While a single cal 50 needs 12 pen hits to kill PE light scout car, the quad needs 22 (with current 25% damage drop on vehicles).
Meanwhile, as we could see, the single 20 mm kills a greyhound with 5 pen hits while a quad needs 67 pen hits.