but 75 jumbo should stay in infantry doctrine. or the doctrine will be very weak.
Forgot to answer this:
Really? I refuse using Jumbo in inf doc bc it felt absolutely stupid for me to use such a tank in an infantry doctrine.
You need to crush defenses?
We got pretty good infiltration squads, artillery (now with 8 shots per barrage for howitzer), the 105 sherman (which i dont know why its limited to one), VT ability for spotter and off maps, early calli jeep.
You need to kill inf? Use captain and call the 7 men rifle squad, Ranger HMG, simply snipers and normal shermans.... hell everything in inf doc kills infantry.
So whats the point here? The Jumbo provides nothing essential infantry doctrine lacks currently.
Shanks wrote:Warhawks97 wrote:Puh
Yes, ambushes shall kill and stop enemies, true. But then the enemie develops not only tactics, but also units and weapons to overcome them.
People started building fortresses? Others started using canons.
The defender started using anti tank guns in massses from ambushes? The attacker invented tanks with armor that could withstand them.
The churchill was some sort of "answer" to axis 50 mm (anti-tank) guns. The sherman was later also well enough armored to withstand 50 mm guns at ranges frontally. The 62 mm armor was 62 mm bc the 50 mm couldnt overmatch the armor plate anymore. The 57 mm anti tank gun was btw the other way arround and having 57 mm to overmatch the 50 mm armor of tank III and IV´s (which had 50 mm bc most anti tank guns were 37-47 mm in calibre like 2 pdr gun)
The Tiger was an answer to the 42 onwards anti tank weapons and tank guns such as 57 mm (churchills) and 75 mm (sherman) guns. Both the first churchills with their 101 mm armor and Tiger Tank didnt provide enough protection against 43/44 weapons such as the long axis 75 mm L/48 guns (that also overmatched most sherman armor).
In 1944 they upgraded churchills with MK VII with 152-172 mm armor in order to protect the tanks against the then mainstay anti tank and tank weaponary such as 75 mm Pak 40/Kwk40 etc. The Germans came up with King Tigers as the normal Tiger wasnt up to its main task anymore in 44 as breakthrough tank against defenses and to withstand ambush anti tank guns.
And the Jumbo was definitely a design of 44 that should withstand the then present anti tank weapons such as kwk/Pak 40.
The Axis upgraded their 88 mm gun to L/71 and even the panther gun was supposed to be lengthened to 100 calibre length (L/100) but didnt made it into service.
So when you say that a 17 pdr punches holes into a Tiger then its correct bc the Tiger was the answer to 75 mm and 57 mm guns. (Developments however begin with expecations of enemie gun improvments and not when the enemie already got a better weapon... at least usually, not always). The 17 pdr in contrast was the answer to Tigers while the KT was the answer to 17 pdr and other high performance anti tank guns.
So the Jumbo might be something in between Tiger in KT. Designed to withstand maintstay anti tank weapons up to normal 88 guns, not so much the longer 88 gun. The KT armor was enough to withstand any western ally anti tank gun (However russian ISU 100 was very powerfull).
excellent explanation, but in BK is a bit difficult to balance this unit (but if it was with the SP, I do not think there are many problems with the Jumbo). If the Jumbo is more stronger against 88 mm for example (I say "more" , because recently there was a case where the Jumbo destroyed a 1v1 tiger, and the first shot of 88 mm with charged AP bounced, and it is not the first time in my experience), the most likely is that the panther can not easily deal with the (in fact, i destroyed the luft panther with the Jumbo on several occasions, although we know that it is the weakest panther, but even so the Jumbo can pierce the Panther armor "G" too, and if you have more armor with the Jumbo could definitely destroy the Panther "g", and not only that, the Stug and the PZ "H" would no longer be rivals for the Jumbo), that I want mean is that the Jumbo should no longer be called only by MP, and I think that would complicate things again in armor doc
Ok, lets put it simple:
Tiger: Max 3 CP total (1 CP for Tank IV H/J and 2 for Tiger) and cool abilites, esspecially with vet. Can get ambushed and killed by 17 pdr guns (and 76 guns with HVAP etc). Very good armor protection against 57 mm and 75 mm guns. Reasonable good vs 76 guns, weak vs 17 pdr and 90 mm.
Jumbo: 7 CP, 760 - 780 MP/ 100 fuel. 75 mm Jumbo as reward for current build cost. Can withstand 50 mm and 75 mm L/48 guns very well and can also withstand Tiger and Panther shells (same as now). Can get ambushed and Killed by Panther guns and 88 mm /L71 guns can kill it quite easily.
King Tiger: 7 CP total (assuming it comes directly after Tiger and thus also 7 CP to unlock and not after Panther). Can withstand pretty much every gun allied can field. Exception SP. 90 mm guns can kill it but its still a tough target. Ambushed 90 mm guns with HVAP are your best bet, 17 pdr can also do the job with APDS rounds but not always. Its pretty much a roling fortress.
I dont see why this should be impossible to balance or unbalanced. I did mention that jumbo would no longer be a call in.