Shanks wrote:Could you be clearer? when you say "you're trying to win this dispute" ... I'm also looking for a balance
What I see from you, is the splitting the facts to not make the overall picture and making your whole arguement on that
Shanks wrote:Could you be clearer? when you say "you're trying to win this dispute" ... I'm also looking for a balance
Viper wrote:can axis get a tiger tank for 800 manpower only?
Viper wrote:ok. so cheap tiger tank = weak tiger tank. right?
so if the jumbo is cheap for only 780 manpower, then why people are crying that it is weak?
cheap jumbo = should also be, weak jumbo. no?
if you want real jumbo. it will cost 100 fuel at least.
Mr. FeministDonut wrote:Jumbo can't stand standart Panther ammunition, Tigers or Pz4 with APCR enabled.
Battlegroup offers armor, as well as infantry presence for the battlefield with FULL upgrades. And this is not just against Armor doctrine, that you could never though actually, lol.
"can't stand" sort of sounds like "gets penetrated every time" which is not true:Mr. FeministDonut wrote:Jumbo can't stand standart Panther ammunition, Tigers (...)
If you give it "KT armor" you will end up reworking armor on all tanks because soon people will start bitching that "Jumbo is impenetrable but KT can get penetrated by XYZ" and you will turn the current tank combat upside down. So making Jumbo accessible sooner would probably be better but it would probably make Axis more likely to rush Tigers/Panthers as soon as possible (to have a good counter to Jumbo) and this would make it for Armor doc player better to rush for Pershings (rather than Jumbo) to counter those Tigers/Panthers.The New BK Champion wrote:If I was a dev, I'd either leave current jumbo armor and make it available earlier - early breathru tank like a churchill, but possessing characteristic punch of 76mm gun. Or I would give it KT armor, and leave it as late unit. So it could become sort of crocodile unit, iconic damage soaker that leads the charge.
MarKr wrote:If you give it "KT armor" you will end up reworking armor on all tanks because soon people will start bitching that "Jumbo is impenetrable but KT can get penetrated by XYZ" and you will turn the current tank combat upside down. So making Jumbo accessible sooner would probably be better but it would probably make Axis more likely to rush Tigers/Panthers as soon as possible (to have a good counter to Jumbo) and this would make it for Armor doc player better to rush for Pershings (rather than Jumbo) to counter those Tigers/Panthers.The New BK Champion wrote:If I was a dev, I'd either leave current jumbo armor and make it available earlier - early breathru tank like a churchill, but possessing characteristic punch of 76mm gun. Or I would give it KT armor, and leave it as late unit. So it could become sort of crocodile unit, iconic damage soaker that leads the charge.
You compare it to Churchill changes but there are some difference that should not be forgotten - Jumbo is faster (so it is not so easy to outmaneuver it), it has better cannon than any Churchill (the 76mm gun is not really strong but still a lot better than the 6pounder or 75mm gun) so it poses some threath to Axis medium tanks, it also has top MG which provides it with better protection against infantry in comparison to Churchills.The New BK Champion wrote:But this exactly how it looks like now. People rush pershin and panthers. So why not make it more interesting by adding some steps in between? That's exactly what you did with churchills, right? In one patch u buffed them considerably and people complained. Now people forgot that there was a chruchill armor buff ever. I just want jumbo to be something more than just "worse-pershing-when-I-cant-afford-to-spend-fuel".
MarKr wrote:You compare it to Churchill changes but there are some difference that should not be forgotten - Jumbo is faster (so it is not so easy to outmaneuver it), it has better cannon than any Churchill (the 76mm gun is not really strong but still a lot better than the 6pounder or 75mm gun) so it poses some threath to Axis medium tanks, it also has top MG which provides it with better protection against infantry in comparison to Churchills.The New BK Champion wrote:But this exactly how it looks like now. People rush pershin and panthers. So why not make it more interesting by adding some steps in between? That's exactly what you did with churchills, right? In one patch u buffed them considerably and people complained. Now people forgot that there was a chruchill armor buff ever. I just want jumbo to be something more than just "worse-pershing-when-I-cant-afford-to-spend-fuel".
I don't remember what it was but there was some reason for the "Jumbo delay" request (I think it was something like "it comes too soon and it is very hard for Axis to counter it"), also AP ammo has no longer damage buff in 5.1.6 so it is less likely that Axis TDs with L48 guns will one shot Jumbo.
I am not against making units useful but it would be good to avoid any "omg omg omg Jumbo immortal, Axis weak pls nerf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" situations.
MarKr wrote:
OK, whatever...
StuG gun vs Jumbo:
42.75%/31.4%/28%/24.5%
400 - 600 damage (Jumbo has 750HP)
With AP ammo:
56.8%/41.7%/37.2%/32.5%
First shot from camo:
53.4%/39.2%/35%/30.6%
Damage 500 - 750
Camo + AP:
71%/52.2%/46.5%/40.7%
Jumbo vs StuG (no skirts):
140%/117.6%/93.8%/75.6%
With AP:
215%/180%/144%/116%
StuG with skirts:
130%/109.2%/87.1%/70.2%
With AP:
200%/168%/134%/108%
________________________________________
Panther vs Jumbo:
60%/55.8%/48%/43.2%
With AP:
79.8%/74.2%/63.8%/57.4%
Tiger vs Jumbo:
50%/46%/41.5%/38%
With AP:
66.5%/61.1%/55.1%/50.5%
The New BK Champion wrote:"worse-pershing-when-I-cant-afford-to-spend-fuel".
The New BK Champion wrote:Jumbo is a mirror image of a tiger tank. U wait for it for a long time, it finally comes with high hopes, then it get's "unluckly" killed by literally anything. Of course I had my jumbos killed by stugs, by marders, one-shot by hetzers, not to mention anything with bigger gun. But it's same with tiger. M10, cromwells, hellcats and for the love of god any call-in you can imagine.
My point is, those two "iconic" tanks, are just crap. In both cases waiting for a panther or pershing is not only matter of choice. It's logical, because those units are so much better. The only way jumbo and tiger could gain some value and become something more than crappy replacement cuz of lack of fuel is either:
1. Allowing them much sooner (jumbo has acutally been even delayed, which made it even more obsolete. Now jumbo is only picked when allied player has no fuel for pershing). Tigers could cost less cp, considering how crapy they truly are.
2. Making them cheaper. Even though jumbo is quite cheap, the cost of tiger is a joke. The mod has ammassed huge ammount of changes regarding tanks: speed, vision, received damage vs arty etc. But the cost of tiger still remains from the very old times. It doesn't fit reality now. For a like a half a year I have not seen a game where tiger would do anything useful. I am not joking or exagerrating.
One more point to make is armor. Jumbo is insanely overnerfed in terms or armor, and Tiger is quite ok right now.
[/quote]Warhawks97 wrote:anyone else sees the error?
Jumbo is supposed to be a breakthrough tank but at the end a stug/hetzer/marder from ambush kills it just as good as a Tiger would do. In fact a stug/Hetzer from camo has a better chance to win the battle bc it fires two times before the jumbo can see it.
Shanks wrote:Warhawks97 wrote:anyone else sees the error?
Jumbo is supposed to be a breakthrough tank but at the end a stug/hetzer/marder from ambush kills it just as good as a Tiger would do. In fact a stug/Hetzer from camo has a better chance to win the battle bc it fires two times before the jumbo can see it.
this is legendary ... is not the goal of "ambush" supposed to be a big blow? ... it's the same as me coming here to say that my Panther "G" was destroyed by an Achilles in "ambush". ..or that I carry my SP in front of a Narshon in "ambush" .. are not you supposed to have observers or inf that come in first? .. maybe a bit of arty and smoke before entering?.. you see your error? ... I did not read the rest of your post, you should summarize your ideas in a few paragraphs. i think
ok, I read it all, the explanation was very good, I agree with some points, but not with the Jumbo has too much armor
MenciusMoldbug wrote:I don't like the Jumbo-Call In anyway. It's like it wants to treated like it's a super special weapon that armor company can only grant you a single time because of how powerful it is. But it's just a gimmick unit you throw at the Germans until they finally destroy it and then you switch to Pershings. At least calliope has a very good reason for why it's only limited to 1 unit. Why should armor company only be able to get a single jumbo tank while US Inf doc is running around with 2 jumbo HE tanks?
90% of the time no one in US cares about fuel costs for a tank. If there was buyable jumbo from tank depot that was 650 mp and 100 fuel, the only thing that makes the US player think twice is the manpower cost, not the fuel cost. It's just the way team games work as brits usually set up on fuel points and depending on games. That can be a super big advantage because every allied player is now +5 or +10 fuel above every other axis player in the game after that. You are incentivized to have more fuel as armor company thanks to the fuel supply upgrades in any case.
So jumbo should stop being a call-in unit and be buildable from the tank depot with a limit of 2. That way it's no longer about rushing jumbos because you are playing on low fuel maps. It will be a further extension down the sherman tree which should represent the strongest armored tank US can have. If it takes removing jumbo from inf doc. That's fine because Inf doc does not need jumbos as much as more AT inf options; Only 2 AT teams (same as all other US docs) and no other source of good AT available to inf (even airborne have more AT thanks to double bazookas on 82nd squads)? Not how I imagined infantry company would work.
My problem with Churchills also comes down to this 'armor' they have. It is unhistorical because it's not even the frontline tanks they were using in 1944-1945. I know it's because they are only 1 CP. But why should those be the only possible frontline tanks they can have before Ace Crocodile Churchill with the MK VII Churchill armor comes in? RE doc should have these older Churchill models available at 1 CP to work as early breakthrough, than later get MK VII Churchillls. So Churchills don't simply disappear from the game when panthers, upgunned tanks, and 88's start to come into play.
Viper wrote:i wholeheartedly disagree that panther tanks should lose hp and become weaker vs 76 guns in return of cheaper cost. terrible idea. very terrible idea. and i hope not see this idea again. it is very disturbing.
Warhawks97 wrote:Puh
Yes, ambushes shall kill and stop enemies, true. But then the enemie develops not only tactics, but also units and weapons to overcome them.
People started building fortresses? Others started using canons.
The defender started using anti tank guns in massses from ambushes? The attacker invented tanks with armor that could withstand them.
The churchill was some sort of "answer" to axis 50 mm (anti-tank) guns. The sherman was later also well enough armored to withstand 50 mm guns at ranges frontally. The 62 mm armor was 62 mm bc the 50 mm couldnt overmatch the armor plate anymore. The 57 mm anti tank gun was btw the other way arround and having 57 mm to overmatch the 50 mm armor of tank III and IV´s (which had 50 mm bc most anti tank guns were 37-47 mm in calibre like 2 pdr gun)
The Tiger was an answer to the 42 onwards anti tank weapons and tank guns such as 57 mm (churchills) and 75 mm (sherman) guns. Both the first churchills with their 101 mm armor and Tiger Tank didnt provide enough protection against 43/44 weapons such as the long axis 75 mm L/48 guns (that also overmatched most sherman armor).
In 1944 they upgraded churchills with MK VII with 152-172 mm armor in order to protect the tanks against the then mainstay anti tank and tank weaponary such as 75 mm Pak 40/Kwk40 etc. The Germans came up with King Tigers as the normal Tiger wasnt up to its main task anymore in 44 as breakthrough tank against defenses and to withstand ambush anti tank guns.
And the Jumbo was definitely a design of 44 that should withstand the then present anti tank weapons such as kwk/Pak 40.
The Axis upgraded their 88 mm gun to L/71 and even the panther gun was supposed to be lengthened to 100 calibre length (L/100) but didnt made it into service.
So when you say that a 17 pdr punches holes into a Tiger then its correct bc the Tiger was the answer to 75 mm and 57 mm guns. (Developments however begin with expecations of enemie gun improvments and not when the enemie already got a better weapon... at least usually, not always). The 17 pdr in contrast was the answer to Tigers while the KT was the answer to 17 pdr and other high performance anti tank guns.
So the Jumbo might be something in between Tiger in KT. Designed to withstand maintstay anti tank weapons up to normal 88 guns, not so much the longer 88 gun. The KT armor was enough to withstand any western ally anti tank gun (However russian ISU 100 was very powerfull).