the jumbo is weak

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Shanks
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the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 15:36

I just wanted to say that the Jumbo is weak of armor doc, and can not kill Stug, PZ "H" or F2, or Stug late version, it has to be better, it's very weak ... could anyone throw Jumbo statistics here? ?

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MarKr
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby MarKr » 26 Nov 2018, 17:31

What stats are you interested in?
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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 17:49

of damages of jumbo vs stug, short and long distance, probability of penetration, etc.

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MarKr
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby MarKr » 26 Nov 2018, 18:18

Damage is not affected by range however the penetration is. Before I give you the raw numbers, can you give me the numbers you would say would be appropriate? Like "76mm Jumbo at max range should have X% chance to penetrate StuG and StuG should have at the same range Y% chance to penetrate Jumbo". I am not asking you what you think it currently is, just what you think it should be.
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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 19:33

I will tell you what my thoughts are, based on the current probabilities of penetration and precision, could you tell me what are the current ones?

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MarKr
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby MarKr » 26 Nov 2018, 19:52

I would like to know what your opinion on the stats is to see if perhaps the stats are already better than you want and your in-game experience is affecting your objectivity in evaluating performance of those units. But you've surely already guessed that. I am not gonna use it against you, I am just curious ;)

I have the stats written down, just give me the numbers you would feel would be OK and I'll post the stats.
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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 20:41

:lol: :lol: :lol: , sincerely you are very intelligent, but in reality for me the Jumbo is currently very good to be honest, but there are many people there who say that the Jumbo is practically obsolete, and do not dare to publish something like "Jumbo de doc armor is a trash ", then I did the post for them ..... if I remember correctly the Jumbo has a probability of penetration of 76% in maximum range, and the stug a probability of 65% or a little more in maximum range vs Jumbo .... now you can give the statistics?

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MarKr
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby MarKr » 26 Nov 2018, 20:47

:lol: So....you make a thread called "Jumbo is weak" but you don't think it is weak :D

OK, whatever...
StuG gun vs Jumbo:
42.75%/31.4%/28%/24.5%
400 - 600 damage (Jumbo has 750HP)

With AP ammo:
56.8%/41.7%/37.2%/32.5%

First shot from camo:
53.4%/39.2%/35%/30.6%
Damage 500 - 750

Camo + AP:
71%/52.2%/46.5%/40.7%

Jumbo vs StuG (no skirts):
140%/117.6%/93.8%/75.6%
With AP:
215%/180%/144%/116%

StuG with skirts:
130%/109.2%/87.1%/70.2%
With AP:
200%/168%/134%/108%

400 - 600 damage (StuG III has 580HP, StuG IV has 636HP)

So 76mm Jumbo has at max range 70% chance to penetrate StuG with skirts (and guaranteed penetration with active AP ammo), while the best chance at max range that StuG gets (shooting from camo + active AP) is about 41%. StuG from camo has a chance to one-shot Jumbo but it is not guaranteed - the shot would need to roll high enough damage (somewhere between 710-750) and even then it has some chance to leave the Jumbo alive with either destroyed gun or engine.
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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 20:55

Yes, that was my intention from the beginning ... you liked my idea ?? :lol: ... this is more than I expected, thank you Markr, now I would like some of those people who say that Jumbo is crap, come here, tell me again

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MarKr
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby MarKr » 26 Nov 2018, 21:05

I don't know what those people say (since they haven't said anything here) but there is a difference between "weak" and "obsolete". It can be true that in Armor doc the Jumbo might feel a bit obsolete because you have stronger Pershings, but there are other factors too e.g. the cost where Jumbo is MP-only call-in while Pershings have fuel tag too. Also the Jumbo sits on a different unlock line than Pershings and if a player's strategy is to always rush for Pershings as soon as possible then the Jumbo would only mean delaying the Pershings. It also depends on what you are fighting because StuGs and other mediums with 75mm L48 is hardly the only thing the Jumbo will face and higher caliber guns (75mm L70 or 88mm which are significantly stronger against Jumbos) are present in every Axis doctrine.

"They" say that Jumbo is obsolete and you disagree which shows that the usefulness of a unit can be heavily dependant on point of view and playstyle.
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Warhawks97
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Warhawks97 » 26 Nov 2018, 21:13

Oh, a jumbo topic. Perhaps these stats are more interesting:

Warhawks97 wrote:The Jumbo is actually a heavy tank that was well armored not just at the front like the panther. It was more comparable to a Tiger (even better in many ways).

However:
Axis 50 mm pen chance vs Jumbo from max range against rear: 50% (with ambush even more)
Allis 57 mm vs Tiger rear: 14%.

I know the 50 mm has less than 1% chance vs jumbo frontal while the 57 mm has a 7% chance vs tiger but the Jumbo does not really fill its role as heavy breakthrough tank it was designed for and we keep treating it more like a Panther medium tank with weak sides and rear. Its understandable for balance since the jumbo does not even need a unlock in inf doc.....

When it comes to 75 and 76 guns it is as follows:
Axis 75 mm pak 40/kwk 40 vs Jumbo rear max range: 144 and 175%
US 76 mm gun vs tiger rear max range: 80%.



Taken from another topic.


Shanks wrote:Yes, that was my intention from the beginning ... you liked my idea ?? :lol: ... this is more than I expected, thank you Markr, now I would like some of those people who say that Jumbo is crap, come here, tell me again


Its crap.

And any Marder from ambush, Hetzer and stug has two ambushed shots. Given the 40% pen chance its likely that one of the two available shots will pen that piece of shit.

There is a very good chance to lose 1 vs 1 with any tank IV.
A Zimmerit boosted Tank IV J/H eats a jumbo alive.

The only good thing about jumbo:
It doesnt need a special unlock (and comes with 76 sherman unlock) in an infantry orientated doctrine that provides arty support and elite infantry for this tank.

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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 21:22

@Markr..That is my point ... and I do not know why people who are not satisfied with a unit or several, do not come to present their point here, for example if I do not like something, or I find it very weak, I will always publish it here, even if they treat me of noob .... and if somebody thinks that I am an axis player, I recommend that you see my previous post, where I said that the jumbo was a garbage (it was like that before, then they improved it), or when I complained about the effectiveness of the 50 mm vs. Sherman, or the ineffectiveness of 57 mn vs. Panzer "H", and now all change, in fact my favorite army is USA, I do not want to detract power from it, I only want balance, I will repeat it as many times it is necessary and whenever possible


@Warhawks..you're talking about TH, I'm talking about armor vs bk or terror doc, you left the topic ... if you talk about TH, I can tell you that I can literally do pieces of shit your TH ,with royal arty doc

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Warhawks97
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Warhawks97 » 26 Nov 2018, 21:34

Shanks wrote:@Warhawks..you're talking about TH, I'm talking about armor vs bk or terror doc, you left the topic ... if you talk about TH, I can tell you that I can literally do pieces of shit your TH ,with royal arty doc



Roflfolness OProflrofl.


Sure, stug and marder are only TH doc -.-

Oh, and the 50 mm.... its only available in Th doc... psst. Thats a secret.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 26 Nov 2018, 21:54, edited 1 time in total.

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 26 Nov 2018, 21:48

Well if anyone wants to hear my opinion on shermans, I think the sherman smoke costs WAY too much. Seems like it got taken from VCoh and never looked at again. 50 munitions for launching smoke from ONE sherman? This is not coh 2 smoke where sherman can launch it like a mortar and throw it infront of it (which a few axis tanks in bk can do and for sometimes cheaper). No this is buyable smoke upgrade and it seems worse than just using m20 command car buffs that reduce accuracy on your tanks.

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Warhawks97
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Warhawks97 » 26 Nov 2018, 21:56

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Well if anyone wants to hear my opinion on shermans, I think the sherman smoke costs WAY too much. Seems like it got taken from VCoh and never looked at again. 50 munitions for launching smoke from ONE sherman? This is not coh 2 smoke where sherman can launch it like a mortar and throw it infront of it (which a few axis tanks in bk can do and for sometimes cheaper). No this is buyable smoke upgrade and it seems worse than just using m20 command car buffs that reduce accuracy on your tanks.



smoke is a thing with weird random costs.

Those who can throw smoke randomly at positions like tet or whatever often pay just 35 ammo, tank IV F2 just 10.
I ve been calling for a smoke price reduction for sherman smoke for several years now.

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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 23:05

Warhawks97 wrote:
Shanks wrote:@Warhawks..you're talking about TH, I'm talking about armor vs bk or terror doc, you left the topic ... if you talk about TH, I can tell you that I can literally do pieces of shit your TH ,with royal arty doc



Roflfolness OProflrofl.


Sure, stug and marder are only TH doc -.-

Oh, and the 50 mm.... its only available in Th doc... psst. Thats a secret.



You do not know how to read ??, I was talking about a publication about 1 year ago, if I'm not mistaken, when 50 mm destroyed 2 sherman shots, without AP, and 57 mm suck ---- when i said that 50 mm is available only Only in TH ??, when time I said that the Stug and mader is available only OnlyTH? at what moment was comparing the units of PE vs USA here ????


Maybe my English is crap and do not understand me or maybe you do not read what I write, I do not know which of the two is the problem here

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 26 Nov 2018, 23:14

If you probably can't understand a mate, why your words having too much agression against him then??????

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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 26 Nov 2018, 23:26

hell, we start again with aggression...are you the lawyer?..

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Viper
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Viper » 27 Nov 2018, 00:55

it's funny some people think jumbo is weak when it costs only 780 manpower.
the real cost for this tank would be something like 900 manpower and 100 fuel.

Walderschmidt
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Walderschmidt » 27 Nov 2018, 02:13

My Panther's have faced the Jumbo and often died at their hands. Probably the Jumbo used AP ammo, but still was quite a surprise to get one shotted at near max range through frontal armor.

Jumbo's better than you think, in my opinion.

Wald

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mofetagalactica
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby mofetagalactica » 27 Nov 2018, 03:19

Jumbo is an unreliable piece of shit

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 27 Nov 2018, 06:46

Shanks wrote:hell, we start again with aggression...are you the lawyer?..

No, I mean you being unrespectful to everyone! This is just a game, calm down

mofetagalactica wrote:Jumbo is an unreliable piece of shit


Agree. I observed favourite move from Wurf - making Pz4 F2 just to counter Jumbo, lul.
Let's see how it goes after AP damage drop off.

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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 27 Nov 2018, 10:54

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:
Shanks wrote:hell, we start again with aggression...are you the lawyer?..

No, I mean you being unrespectful to everyone! This is just a game, calm down



I do not remember saying you idiot or noob, in fact I respect you a lot ... but in a way I make my post is spicy, that does not mean that I disrespect someone, and if I did, I apologize

Also, if many here do not like the Jumbo Armor doc, as for example, figree- Warhawks-MrfeminisDonut -... because they never asked Markr or some dev a better performance for the Jumbo?

Here I am clearly seeing that 70% say that Jumbo is a rubbish, in spite of the statistics that Markr showed us ... because they do not propose any solution?

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 27 Nov 2018, 11:14

Dude you're trying just to win in the dispute, when it's about B A L A N C E
Thanks for respecting me, I like you for taking apologize :****

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Shanks
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Re: the jumbo is weak

Postby Shanks » 27 Nov 2018, 11:23

Could you be clearer? when you say "you're trying to win this dispute" ... I'm also looking for a balance


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