Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

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maousaki
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Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby maousaki » 24 Oct 2018, 22:12

Is there any way to make airdropped units shoot after they secure the equipment box dropped with them. It's really annoying when supermen airdropped units (ahem Fallschirmjager taking to you) drop in front of your units in cover and they can immediately get into cover while shredding your infantry. Of course american airborne units drop like that too but the problem is not that intense with them. Only the glider troops can drop already armed.

I think gameplay-wise is good because it punishes Rambo para-dropping without vision of the area. It is also more realistic since at least the fallschirmjagers dropped without main weapons (only with pistols). I am not sure about the americans.

Now if the squad doesn't manage to get the weapon box but retreats to safety, in order for it to not stay without weapons they can have a weapon upgrade that gives them the basic equipment.

Another alternative of the concept is to give them maybe pistols until they the equipment.

kwok
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby kwok » 25 Oct 2018, 03:46

Grenade the drop zone, gives you a strong lead against airdropped units.

maousaki
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby maousaki » 25 Oct 2018, 11:51

Well there are times that your grenade just kills one guy depending on how enemy units drop. And then grenade goes on cooldown. Also the grenade means extra microing from your side to counter a bad macro move of your opponent. So the grenade leaves still an open opportunity for paradropped units to wreck havoc.

Example you have an at gun guarded by some rifles/volks... ok the enemy just paradrops under fire some elite units some meters away and job's done. I am ok if they drop out of sight collect their stuff and come kill everything when good organized.

The New BK Champion
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby The New BK Champion » 25 Oct 2018, 14:27

Well, that is totally not what airborn units do. Who would suspect them to be dropped and wreck havoc behind enemy lines.. well basicaly those parachutes are a decoration right?

Hey, wait it seems like that is the exact point of paratroopers!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_ ... Eben-Emael

maousaki
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby maousaki » 25 Oct 2018, 15:27

Ahem gliders. Troops are already equipped in gliders. When they were paradropped they didn't have their main gun with them.

And as i told you i am ok if they drop far from my troops and then kill them but not if they fall right on top of them.
Last edited by maousaki on 25 Oct 2018, 15:49, edited 1 time in total.

The New BK Champion
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby The New BK Champion » 25 Oct 2018, 15:46

Gliders vs paradroping is only different in terms of delivering soldiers to the destination point. Horizontal vs vertical. The goal of the soldiers was more or less the same.

Erich
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby Erich » 25 Oct 2018, 16:18

Paradropped limited ur equipment while gliders u could carry heavy equipment i think thats what he is talking about and not the goal of the mission. u need to study more!!

The New BK Champion
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby The New BK Champion » 25 Oct 2018, 16:51

And that is perfectly represented in the mod as soldiers drop with basic weapons and bazookas, mortars, mgs etc are dropped separately and also the only airborne tank comes with a glider. I don't see a problem.

maousaki
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby maousaki » 25 Oct 2018, 19:56

If you want to see it historically: https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Wea ... j%C3%A4ger

Scroll down to the weapons and equipment containers.

And because i think you don't understand my point. I don't have a problem with paratroopers falling behind enemy lines and doing a good job. My problem is when they fall right on top of them.

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MarKr
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby MarKr » 25 Oct 2018, 22:33

Guys, it makes no sense to argue about it - it is not possible to make it that way. Soldiers need to be dropped with guns, and there is no way to make them "get 6x FG42 when they get near their weapon drop". It would mean that the FG42 would need to be picked in the same way as the current schrecks and that would mean that if the the squad gets killed before they pick up the weapons (which is VERY likely if they are dropped unarmed or with pistols only) then any other soldier unit can pick it up. You might say that it is "realistic" but from gameplay point of view it would be a nightmare - we really don't want to see in the game SAS running around with 6 captured FG42 or even if not captured by enemy, Stormtroopers with full loadout of FG42 or scoped G43. There is a reason why these guns never drop when soldiers get killed.
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The New BK Champion
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby The New BK Champion » 25 Oct 2018, 22:55

You know, I am sure that there is a parallel universe where I had my 82 AB pick up 6 dropped FG42 and it was op as fuck. I agree xd

Walderschmidt
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby Walderschmidt » 25 Oct 2018, 23:49

Ultimately, airborne soldiers are implemented in the current manner in the interest of gameplay.

Fallschirmjaegers are quite vulnerable when falling from the sky and can be taken out pretty quickly before they're ready to roll. A grenade or two where they land and soldiers nearby shooting them takes them down to 2/3 or 1/2 numbers pretty quickly and then they either retreat or die. Experienced players scout often before they drop troops because they're expensive as hell.

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kwok
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby kwok » 26 Oct 2018, 04:19

Yeah for the most part it’s a micro action that cancels a macro. Most defenses are like that though because you can’t predict exactly where an enemy attacks. But I wouldn’t call it a tough micro action.

From a macro perspective, layer your defenses more. If you know the enemy is airborne then expect airborne and make backline msg/aa/etc. sure the fallsj can probably kill one of your units. But it’s a 550mp tradeoff. They’re expensive enough that you should come out ahead. Check your formations more.

While I agree fallsj are stupid because their unnecessary hyper buffs ages ago make them able to just drop randomly on top of as emplacements and kill them sometimes... there are still micro decisions to counter them for now until some larger changes and reworks come. Because it’s not their weapons that make them strong but their durability AND weapons. Make then regular humans and not invincible cyborgs then you can kill them while they are dropping fast enough to counter the Luft player’s bad macro decision.

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 26 Oct 2018, 07:41

MarKr wrote:Guys, it makes no sense to argue about it - it is not possible to make it that way. Soldiers need to be dropped with guns, and there is no way to make them "get 6x FG42 when they get near their weapon drop". It would mean that the FG42 would need to be picked in the same way as the current schrecks and that would mean that if the the squad gets killed before they pick up the weapons (which is VERY likely if they are dropped unarmed or with pistols only) then any other soldier unit can pick it up. You might say that it is "realistic" but from gameplay point of view it would be a nightmare - we really don't want to see in the game SAS running around with 6 captured FG42 or even if not captured by enemy, Stormtroopers with full loadout of FG42 or scoped G43. There is a reason why these guns never drop when soldiers get killed.

In the battle of Crete modification this was realised as muni drops with amount of needed weapon upgrade. So paratroopers there are really landing in with pistols. In current case, ammunition drop with the squad could compensate FG42 weapon upgrade

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MarKr
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby MarKr » 26 Oct 2018, 08:10

So they dropped with an ammo box which gave to the player the number of ammo which covered the price of a weapon upgrade? I've never played that mod so I don't know how the rest worked but in BK this would be "abuseable" - you have an excess of MP but only like 100 ammo and you spot a SP. So you drop the paratroopers into your base, collect the ammo boxes (now you suddenly have over 200 ammo) and you can send Henschels on the SP. It doesn't really matter that your paratroopers are left in the base with only pistols - you can equip them with weapons a few minutes later when you collect enough ammo again.
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Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 26 Oct 2018, 08:22

But if falshims costs 550 mp and you spending that amount to have just 100 muni for henshels, forcing you having a useless squad, maybe. But paratroopers in mod only upgrade they had is kar rifle for 20 muni. Anyway, in vanilla you had to pay for FG42 at least

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Jalis
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby Jalis » 26 Oct 2018, 08:37

For the core of original poster question I can suggest. Make fallsschirm unarmed. anyway you cant give them order before the whole squad have landed. Include in the sbps squad an upgrade to give them weapons, 6x fg 42 for exemple. Upgrade would be for free. Upgrade time will be the time you wish for your pvp experience fallschirm have to be almost unable to be a treat. Let Schreck and mg 34 like it is. Anyway it already take time before you can really pick up these weapons. If you dont want fallschirm can use grenades in the x seconds following landing, tricks like that are also possible to delay squad offensive effectiveness.

Imo it Is nor very important to think about this problem from a logic or historical point of view, because in first time fallschirm paradrop would event not exist at time coh take place, and fg 42 are in the game scifi weapons. so ...

Historically allied para jumped with weapons. Axis tech was less sophisticated and weapons were dropped separately.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby Warhawks97 » 26 Oct 2018, 12:42

I got a few questions:

1. Does para shoot while still hanging on the chute? In latest occassions they dropped into rifle squads and killed the rifle squad (which i expected to win since paras should have been exposed in the chute).
2. Does ambush and cover bonuses apply when a falli is dropping in over a position of a crater? Sometimes it seems like they drop in invisible and with def bonuses active.


What i think about fallis: Why dont they drop in with Mp40 and have FG42 as upgrade?
Or forget the air drop aspect and make them simple call ins just like in vcoh coming with K98 and Fg42 as upgrade? I mean german fallis got usually only used as regular ground forces and elite troops or dropping only over friendly ground in as some sort of quick defensive reaction force.

And gebis never dropped with parachutes except once in italy but over friendly territory. Else they waited for Fallis to cap an airfield and then landing with Ju52 airplanes. I never understood why they are parachute units in BK at all. That way we could even make Panzergrenadiers dropping with parachutes.


I would limit the "airborne" assault style capabilties of Luftwaffe a bit which to some degree outmatches even AB (not bc they have more units that can drop by parachute, but rather those few they got are rambos by their own causing havoc like there is an entire airborne army). They have the powerfull defenses, good repair units, nice defensive and offensive infantry and good tanks. So we can make a trade off here by making gebis being no airborne units anymore.

The New BK Champion
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Re: Airdropped units shoot after securing equipment

Postby The New BK Champion » 26 Oct 2018, 14:46

1. Of course not.
2. Yes, if they drop on yellow or green cover, they can camo up even in mid-air. That's the case for all paradroping units with camo.


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