MarKr wrote:
Hawks's ideas for infantry loadouts are quite good (something similar was planned for WM in the doc rework anyway) but he complained that "StG44 is a nobrainer pick and in late game you see them on almost every Axis squad but he suggests to give 2 StG44s to Assault grens for free and still have them able to upgrade to full StG44 loadout - what will that change for PE? They can have 4x StG44 now and (according to Hawks) people always buy them, now they would have 2 for free and other 4 would be possible to buy so overall you would have a full StG44 squad for same ammo price as now. Sure, they would not have the LMG and G43 but since "everyone goes for StG44 anyway" it doesn't seem to matter that much.
Thx.
Thing with "overreprestend STG" is not that there are too many in total, but simply everywhere. lets say we can have 6 stgs in total. Having 6 of them in one squad which has nothing else than stgs and thus one specific purpose is less an issue than having 6 stgs spread over 3 squads which also have schrecks and perhaps lmgs. Battles can often be micro intense which means that a unit that can do actually everything by its own makes things a lot easier while also much harder to encounter from the enemies point of view bc he simply dont know what to send against what as each of the three squads can kill his units at close, mid and long range (k98 and lmg) but also vehicles or tanks that come too close.
And thats what long term WH gren spam with three type of weapons in each squad makes its harder to encounter than simple Commando spam or PE assault gren spam (which have no AT by themselves or non that activates automatically once a target comes into range).
I got lots of ideas floating arround my head.
Like perhaps you could really upgrade just pne type of equipment. For example once you gave BAR your can only add a second BAR but no smg. Or the other way arround.
Only stuff like upgrades that only enables abilties (faust, rifle nade) can be mixed with any other upgrade.
In return these upgrades become more effective. For example you can get instead of only 4 smgs for rifles/volks full 6. Either by buying 3x2 or each upgrade gives 3 smgs right away.
I also thought about some kind of "packages".
For example close quarter package for grens which gives them full MP40 (6 of them) and also the frag grenade which only dev doc got.
Also perhaps some sort of "AT package" which gives fausts, the hollow charge, schreck and AT nade.
Thing is here that we already have such AT squads so having AT packages wouldnt make that much sense anymore.
Or a "ranged combat package" for grens giving them lmg and G43 right away..... idk.
Or only certain upgrades could be combined. Like if grens in terror get flamethrower you can combine this with smgs but not with lmg. Thing is idk how the lmgs would be or how they could get combined with what.
So we have a few options.
1. Simply limit ammount of total upgrades available (and/or doctrinal specific)
2. Maintain the ammount of upgrades but you can always only go for one.
We still would have to discuss which squad is allowed to get what and where.
3. Single upgrades become some sort of packages which dont only give an additional weapon but weapons and abilities. Some can be combined with others or not.
Mainly think about the regular infantry that can just like that get tons of different equipment at once with good abilties.
Having a huge mix of weapon types should be more something for the elite infantry like falli units, stormtroopers and rangers.
That of course means that rangers would get added to the list of basic inf and thus able to use one or max two types of equipment at once or if we switch it to elite status which would mean doctrinal and unit cap but upgrades could stay. The ammount as well as the numbers avaialble at once.
Coming back to Grens in particular and as example. I think the best way is to have the upgrades doctrinal in order to fit in the roles they are supposed to do there as every doctrine plays them differently. And upgrades or packages are differently combinable.
In BK doc:1. They should have MP 40´s and perhaps one stg at default after doctrine pick. But idk if we make it by simple weapon upgrades or packages.
For example the assault package for BK grens could contain a set of 5xMp40, 1xSTG and grenade bundle ability. Once purchased you cant by anything else.
2. Second option is an lmg 42 but then it remains as ranged fire support team with one lmg and their k98.
Or else a ranged package or fire support package with two lmg34 but thats it again. But then they would be quite similiar to the suppression squad which however has better lmgs and can hide and has generally stormtrooper stats.
The assault ability of the doctrine unlock would enable them afterall to throw multiple nades at targets. Thus with assault package upgrade they can use assault ability and grenade bundle as well as normal nades.
So two upgrades/packages and one can be picked.
Terror:1. They would have a close quarter upgrade giving either 6 Mp40 at once or 2x3 or 3x2. But once going for it you have just that. Not sure what abilties could be added here. Open for ideas.
2. This can get combined with a flamethrower package giving them one or two flamethrower. (Which of course gets buffed to be usefull)
Perhaps gren squad in terror doc could also get some sort of heroic charge ability to boost nearby inf like old kch where able to. But it can be used just once in a time and a shared cooldown among all grens (to prevent multiple stacks).
So terror grens would perhaps not have the very best weapons but therefore good abilties (nebler vt, heroic charge, flame nades, Zeal boost for every dead men etc). Also both upgrades can be picked at once.
Def doc:1. One defensive package that contains G43´s. A package contains perhaps 1x scoped and 2x normal G43. In total two can be purchased thus having 2x scoped G43 and 4x normal one. Advantage is that they can stand still and engage target at range but also benefit when targets close in just like Garand does. Or its just one package instantly giving them all the G43.
2. Defensive fire support. That contains two lmg42 and suppression ability.
3. Anti tank package. That adds Panzerfaust 100 as well as the hollow charge ability. Grens in def doc have a Panzerfaust at default.
This package can be combined with any of the two above.
The defensive training boost would only apply when the unit does not move and having cover. It really sucks that this passive boost is so far the best you can get even during your assaults in late game when you find cover at every meter.
This should be true for def doc as well as for the Luftwaffe. The bonuses it gives are massive and passive so it seems fair that cover+not moving is the requirment.
Volks/Rifles:I would go the same here. You can either buy smgs but then no more lmgs. The SMG´s get upgraded either 1x6 or 2x3. They have been build in millions and are very cheap designs so having many of them for low cost seems fair.
Once you go for BAR/lmg 34 you cant buy smgs anymore. The BAR gets perhaps upgraded as package which means two of them right away.
Faust/Rifle nade can be combined with any of them.
Rangers:Even though being perhaps only in inf doc i still think that we should proceed the same way here. LMG+Bazooka or smg+Bazooka.
As for PE:Stormpios should spawn with 1x or 2x STG but also 4-5x Mp40 right away making them pure close combat.
Assault grens should come with 1-2x STG to underline its assault status and can get full squad equiped with stgs and also maintain its lmg42. In TH doc they would get Panzerfaust after unlock.
Normal Grens should be able to get more G43´s untill full squad is equiped with it.
But i will express concerns about the G43 when coming to the field in such numbers. I am afraid that with their current performance they would anihilate just everything in seconds at long and short range. They are shooting fast, accurate (more accurate than Garands) and have very fast reload as well large magazins. The Bullet damage is also extremely high. So tweaks might be needed here if the G43 shows up in numbers.
Def doc grens with two scopped and two normal G43 would become real badass.
[b
]AB:[/b]
The 101st as some kind of elite unit and fighting behind lines need to maintain different weapon upgrades. However perhaps johnson can also come in pair as a package just like the BAR´s for rifles.
Hawks mentioned .50cals then being an upgrade - still, some vehicles are not really gonna work as an upgrade - namely the US mortar HT where I am not sure if the model animations would allow it, M20 where it would basically need to come without any weapon, HTs which get gunners as soon as a squad is loaded and also the US .50cal Jeep in infantry doctrine and the armored .50cal Jeep in AB doctrine - again if the gun requires an upgrade then they would come without any weapon, yet they would "quickly suppress" as you said and would be capable of quite easily killing HTs and lightly armored units which are usually more expensive.
Just plain buffing things without any compensation usually creates just more ballance issues and for these vehicles it would simply be a direct buff. How would this be counter-balanced?
The m20 and jeep would have them at default bc its their primary weapon. The 20 mm vehicle dont upgrade their 20 mm either.
The Jeeps with cal 50 are t2, need fuel and lots of MP. The armored jeep is described as being able to counter armored vehicles so...The cal 50 wouldnt be same against all vehicles. The Puma for example afterall maintains a strong frontal armor that is slopped so pen chances here would be lower as vs HTs.
The jeeps themselves can also get oneshoted and countered by AT rifle, AT guns, 37 mm HT, 28 mm.... All avaialble t2 so i dont think they would become a too big issue.
The mortar HT can perhaps be the only cal 50 using not the allround armor piercing rounds that was given to all units and instead using the softer anti infantry with less pen power vs vehicles.
Schrecks could be mostly replaced by Fausts, I guess. However currently the option to upgrade a Schreck gives to Axis an option to counter vehicles with a one-time ammo investment. This would mean investing less for Faust upgrade but then spend ammo on each shot so in general the ammo consumption when fighting tanks would go up
Well, as terror doc i did tend not upgrade anything and spare ammo for arty and off maps which can be crucial support.
I usually run for 3 grens with their default STG... no ammo investment, AT squads, officer and forward base and thats it. I used the 50 mm Puma with big success as mobile and fast deployable anti vehicle unit vs recces and a 50 mm as safe back up as well as stugs (even unupgraded or only with HE sometimes)
That was enough to deal with any vehicle and medium tank bothering me. I repeated attacks and each became stronger and later got supported by arty. I dont think things become too complicate. You just play them like playing brits more or less.
With def doc i often used them only with lmg upgrade, used sandbags and defensive training. Backed by Jagdpanzers they do handle any situation well enough and def doc has enough arty to push the advance.
And the new AT rifle shouldnt get forget which helps grens to handle nasty vehicles well enough. So i dont think things would become "too micro intense" just bc a few schrecks less. Everybody who can play cw would still be able to fight with them.
drivebyhobo wrote:
I don't see overrepresentation of equipment being applicable to this game. Company of Heroes was designed to represent company/battalion level operations in the most interesting battles. Battles such as Market Garden pitting the XXX Corps against the II SS Panzer Corps and the 3rd Armored division closing the Falaise pocket. Well equipped divisions armed with the best equipment available to their nations.
These are definitely not reserve/garrison units equipped with whatever was at hand. Leave the problem of equipment overrepresentation/availability to Grand Strategy Games where the scope is to command the entire armed forces including the rear troops.
As you see i or we dont aim at simply dropping the quantity speaking of sheer numbers. Its more that we dont have a single squad using all three of them at once (lmg42, stg and schreck) unless its an elite unit.
Grens would be more doing their job in their doctrine instead of being stg assault heroes even in def doc. The G43 is also an elite weapon and esspecially the scoped one. Its not that elite weapons would suddenly be underrepresnted. I mean we have elite tanks and guns in every doctrine afterall.
). This means that medium Axis tanks would have harder time fighting US medium tanks and would need to use AP ammo more often, at the same time infantry would need to pay every time to shoot at a tank + .50cals would be stronger so it would be a nerf of Axis in terms of infantry survivability against vehicles and at the same time a nerf for Axis in terms of countring vehicles + the buffs to hull and coaxial MGs which Warhawks IS going to bring up again sooner or later and you have Axis infantry in sort of a problem.
