M10 HEAT

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MenciusMoldbug
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M10 HEAT

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 20 Oct 2018, 10:49

Current M10 HEAT acts as a double shot ability where you can fire a normal shell first, than fire a HEAT shell immediately afterwards. I think there should be 2.5 seconds aim time instead of 1.5 for this particular shell because of its huge penetrating power. But the M10 also has a very slow turret so gimping the shell with more aim time and its current less range than standard shells would make it almost useless if enemy tanks keep reversing. Which brings my further solution of making the HEAT shell cost 50 munitions to fire instead of 75.

I feel like docs other than Armor Company in US need a good counter to Panthers other than long tomming/artying or spamming airstrikes at them. Problem with using HEAT shells as counter is you need to activate it 2-3 times to garauntee a kill which gives the cost of 150-225 munitions; as it is a single-shot ability. Further adding to this is that the camo-nerfs a while back brought down the potential of using the M10 from a good position to ambush heavy tanks. Since the penetration chances became a lot lower even while using AP rounds from camo. At least with HEAT you can spend 50-150 munitions to destroy a Panther rather than noticing that you ran out of munitions because of how expensive firing a single shell is(and don't forget the cost of buying the shell in the first place either). It will also allow the M10 to ambush heavy tanks instead of having them laugh at how your AP rounds from camo didn't penetrate a single time.

It's good to mention that the M10 is a CP unlock tank and it's literally the only tank destroyer available to Inf Doc. There needs to be a move away from Inf Doc having to be forced to arty every heavy tank it sees; Because of how much cheaper it is to just fire 105s/long toms at tanks than use M10s against them. Bringing down the cost of using HEAT while increasing its aim time to stop it from 'rapid firing' shells is one way to do it.

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Shanks
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Shanks » 20 Oct 2018, 11:18

since you mention the M10, I want to say that this unit is the new Achilles, it has a monstrous damage, even kill a panther without AP ammunition of a single shot, but in ambush, maybe I was very lucky, but kill a panzer L / 48 of a shot, without ambush or ammunition AP on several occasions, I think a little exaggerated for this unit ... maybe "someone" should review it, because if I upload examples, it is a complete waste of time for me

I almost forgot, the L / 48 and L / 70 for some reason can not hit the M10 ( when the M10 is without ambush or flanking speed, and even if it had flanking speed, there should be a higher probability of being hit by a camouflaged unit, I'm just suggesting) , also happens very often, should improve the aim of these units (L / 48 and L / 70)

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Warhawks97
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Oct 2018, 19:15

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Current M10 HEAT acts as a double shot ability where you can fire a normal shell first, than fire a HEAT shell immediately afterwards. I think there should be 2.5 seconds aim time instead of 1.5 for this particular shell because of its huge penetrating power. But the M10 also has a very slow turret so gimping the shell with more aim time and its current less range than standard shells would make it almost useless if enemy tanks keep reversing. Which brings my further solution of making the HEAT shell cost 50 munitions to fire instead of 75.

I feel like docs other than Armor Company in US need a good counter to Panthers other than long tomming/artying or spamming airstrikes at them. Problem with using HEAT shells as counter is you need to activate it 2-3 times to garauntee a kill which gives the cost of 150-225 munitions; as it is a single-shot ability. Further adding to this is that the camo-nerfs a while back brought down the potential of using the M10 from a good position to ambush heavy tanks. Since the penetration chances became a lot lower even while using AP rounds from camo. At least with HEAT you can spend 50-150 munitions to destroy a Panther rather than noticing that you ran out of munitions because of how expensive firing a single shell is(and don't forget the cost of buying the shell in the first place either). It will also allow the M10 to ambush heavy tanks instead of having them laugh at how your AP rounds from camo didn't penetrate a single time.

It's good to mention that the M10 is a CP unlock tank and it's literally the only tank destroyer available to Inf Doc. There needs to be a move away from Inf Doc having to be forced to arty every heavy tank it sees; Because of how much cheaper it is to just fire 105s/long toms at tanks than use M10s against them. Bringing down the cost of using HEAT while increasing its aim time to stop it from 'rapid firing' shells is one way to do it.


Agree with that. The reload time is not just an issue with HEAT but with all abilities you use on target or location. HE rounds, Tigers and jagdpanthers long shots, HEAT rounds etc.

It was already in discussion to add jackson A for inf doc perhaps and make the M10 to be non CP unit in all docs.
I mean WH got stugs as decent 0 CP anti tank weapon, PE got the Marder and def doc this geschützwagen (no ambush but therefore very good anti everything support weapon when put behind a screening inf line).

So:

1.The Heat can be cheaper
2. M10 to be 0 CP unlock for US
3. Jackson A for inf doc while AB gets M18 unlock (in trade off for losing a jumbo as i feel that jumbo may boosts mid game offense for inf doc but late game i would wish better AT rather than Jumbos as i have calli and arty to break defenses)

Just throwing suggestions.






Shanks wrote:since you mention the M10, I want to say that this unit is the new Achilles, it has a monstrous damage, even kill a panther without AP ammunition of a single shot, but in ambush, maybe I was very lucky, but kill a panzer L / 48 of a shot, without ambush or ammunition AP on several occasions, I think a little exaggerated for this unit ... maybe "someone" should review it, because if I upload examples, it is a complete waste of time for me


Come on, the M10 is my basic anti tank unit no matter what doc i play for years already. Its nothing extrodinary and a panther can sometimes run into a tripple ambush, killing one M10 and escape with some scratches.

The M10 suffered most from the Ambush nerf where pen boost dropped from doubling the pen to a 25% boost.
With x2 boost it could pen a tank IV H/J from max range at least with 99% chance. No its 95% even with AP. Without its still somewhat arround 60% currently.


I am spamming these things like shit most of the time. A few of them making good scores but more than enough do fail horrible.
As a offensive unit is rather weak due to bad armor, low HP, low turret rotation and weak gun. I somtimes manage to pass through enemie tanks and killing their artillery units etc.

But its far from being an achilles, such nonsense. Achilles pen power is in average twice as good if not more and its AP boosts damage.
As you observed correctly, US AP for 76 does not boost damage unlike axis AP or CW AP does.

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Shanks
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Shanks » 20 Oct 2018, 20:14

the M10 is strong, more than it should be, only for 35 fuel ... I just asked for tests, nothing more...by the way, the M10 is excellent for an offensive, if you do not know how to use, it's not my fault

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Warhawks97
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Oct 2018, 20:28

Shanks wrote:the M10 is strong, more than it should be, only for 35 fuel ... I just asked for tests, nothing more...by the way, the M10 is excellent for an offensive, if you do not know how to use, it's not my fault


It does not overperform for its cost.

You can kill stuff with it but its nothing special, its something i expect from a hidden tank destroyer that it knocks out tanks it fails often enough in doing that either bc of non-penetration or simply not killing it.


The stug is generally more reliable in all aspects and once it got camo ability it is even better with two ambush shots. That thing doesnt even cost CP unlike M10.

So i have no idea what you are talking about. A Tank IV J costs also 45 fuel or something like that, so increasing its cost would mean that you would have to spend always more res as you can counter. That would just break the general logic that a counter unit is supposed to be cheaper than the unit it counters. Else you could just as well throw your own tanks against it or whatever.

As i said, simple tactical logic. In ww2 exist a huge ammount of cheap anti tank units that are supposed to counter enemie tanks in the cheapest possible way. Thats how war works.

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Shanks
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Shanks » 20 Oct 2018, 20:37

if I'm not wrong, you can have M10 without using CP in armor doc

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mofetagalactica
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby mofetagalactica » 20 Oct 2018, 20:45

M10 is a completely shit after the nerf ambush changes and heat is expensive as fuck. It used to be my main tank destroyer, but now since it lost is defensive power i only use it to send kamikaze attacks to artillery/mortar units behind enemy lines.
Last edited by mofetagalactica on 20 Oct 2018, 20:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Warhawks97
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Oct 2018, 20:45

Shanks wrote:if I'm not wrong, you can have M10 without using CP in armor doc


yes, but i talked about having it in all docs for 0 cp just like all axis have some sort of 0 cp light armored mobile anti tank units like stugs and marders.

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 20 Oct 2018, 21:07

Let's look at other factions to compare:

Wehr
Blitzkrieg and Terror -> Stugs straight off the bat, with good chances to win against m10 in head to head confrontations.

Def -> Nothing special but Geshutzwagen exists, and they get a good lineup of TD's afterwards if they need anything bigger.

PE
SE -> Hetzer to Nashorn; which counters pretty much everything from a defensive position.

Luft -> Hetzer and the only Panther PE gets, not bad.

TH -> Self-explanatory.

CW
RAF and RA -> Achilles and Fireflies, very good anti-tank and justified CP costs for having a good gun.

RE -> Same thing, but with Comets for something a little extra-special.

US
Armor -> M10 by default, which is how it should be for every US doc but isn't. Can get pretty much every tank with a few exceptions that US has to offer.

AB -> M10 needs a 2 CP unlock, but you get an M18 hellcat with it so its kinda ok I guess?

Inf -> M10 by themselves for 2 CPs because ??? Then nothing.

Afaik, when M10s had 2x pen boost from ambush their CP cost was justified. Now they've turned into absolute piss with the current ambush nerfs for everything. Which by the way hit US the hardest because Hetzers/Stugs/etc. don't have to care about allied armor ratings 90% of the time(same goes for CW when they use 17p tanks).

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Shanks
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Shanks » 20 Oct 2018, 21:37

mofetagalactica wrote:M10 is a completely shit after the nerf ambush changes and heat is expensive as fuck. It used to be my main tank destroyer, but now since it lost is defensive power i only use it to send kamikaze attacks to artillery/mortar units behind enemy lines.



the nerf is in version 5.1.6 ??? ... I still do not probe it, I was talking about 5.1.5

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Warhawks97
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Oct 2018, 21:46

Shanks wrote:
mofetagalactica wrote:M10 is a completely shit after the nerf ambush changes and heat is expensive as fuck. It used to be my main tank destroyer, but now since it lost is defensive power i only use it to send kamikaze attacks to artillery/mortar units behind enemy lines.



the nerf is in version 5.1.6 ??? ... I still do not probe it, I was talking about 5.1.5


who is drunk now?

MenciusMoldbug wrote:

Afaik, when M10s had 2x pen boost from ambush their CP cost was justified. Now they've turned into absolute piss with the current ambush nerfs for everything. Which by the way hit US the hardest because Hetzers/Stugs/etc. don't have to care about allied armor ratings 90% of the time(same goes for CW when they use 17p tanks).



got it now?



Ambush boosts are quite good afterall. Axis used to have better ambush boosts previously, now it got more standardized and allied received their accuracy bonus which they lacked.
Its true that this pen boost reduction from ambush hits US hardest since other factions had sufficient pen power anyway.
So i support your suggestions.

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Shanks
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Shanks » 20 Oct 2018, 22:42

I did not understand anything, are changes of the version 5.1.6? ... because currently (5.1.5), I can feel the M10 very strong vs panzer L/48 and L/70, these tanks tend to fail the shot against the M10, it's a mystery to me, why this happens, that's what i think is wrong.Also the M10 can destroy with one shot to the panzer L / 48, without the need of AP or the position of ambush, happens very often

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mofetagalactica
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby mofetagalactica » 20 Oct 2018, 23:17

Shanks wrote:I did not understand anything, are changes of the version 5.1.6? ... because currently (5.1.5), I can feel the M10 very strong vs panzer L/48 and L/70, these tanks tend to fail the shot against the M10, it's a mystery to me, why this happens, that's what i think is wrong.Also the M10 can destroy with one shot to the panzer L / 48, without the need of AP or the position of ambush, happens very often


You are drunk

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Warhawks97
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Oct 2018, 23:51

Shanks wrote:I did not understand anything, are changes of the version 5.1.6? ... because currently (5.1.5), I can feel the M10 very strong vs panzer L/48 and L/70, these tanks tend to fail the shot against the M10, it's a mystery to me, why this happens, that's what i think is wrong.Also the M10 can destroy with one shot to the panzer L / 48, without the need of AP or the position of ambush, happens very often


and? thats common Ambush techniques. Ambush currently boosts pen by 25% and damage/accuracy by 25% and one of these two by 50%. Forgot whether it boosts accuracy or damage by 50% but i think it was accuracy.

A stug or hetzer have the same gun damage and same ambush damage boost. A regular sherman has 636 HP just like a Tank IV H/J from WH.
Sherman 76 (W) have 700 HP. The PE Tank IV H/J have 650 HP and take 25% less damage once Zimmerit is up (so they can sit out M10 ambush pretty good. In fact an M10 cant oneshot A Zimmerit boosted Tank IV H/J based on the pure damage.

Furthermore M10 cant boost the damage any further unlike CW or axis which can boost the damage by another 25% when using AP. So the damage output for a stug with AP and ambush or hetzer is drastically higher than those of an M10 and they can shoot even twice with better pen vs shermans.


Prior to version (idk in which it got changed, 5.14?) ambush doubled the pen and boosted damage by 50%. Axis also gained accuracy boost.

Now all got same boosts which means that US suffers most as it was heavily depending on this double pen boost unlike CW or axis which have much higher basic pen values. Thus M10 ambush pen vs Tank IV H/J dropped from 99% to approx 60% at max range. A Hetzer or stug or marder in return has afterall a good 81,4% pen chance vs 76 shermans when shooting from ambush (in old version with double pen boost they had 130% pen)

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Shanks
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Shanks » 21 Oct 2018, 14:07

Hahahahahha I do not waste time here, anyway I do not care if they change it or not, because I could continue to abuse these units, I was just suggest a revision ....

Erich
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Re: M10 HEAT

Postby Erich » 22 Oct 2018, 13:09

Literally troll


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