BK improvements

Do you have a balancing problem or do you want to make a suggestion for the game? You are at the right place.
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seha
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Re: BK improvements

Postby seha » 21 Oct 2018, 23:30

interesting discussions.

Shanks wrote:i think it's almost balanced

agree.

MarKr wrote:gameplay goes before realism.

agree, too.

MarKr wrote:This is something I could agree to. The versatility of Axis infantry is a huge advantage and I also agree that the StG44 is vastly over-represented in the mod.

not agree.
mp44 was semi automatic, bolt action and full automatic assault rifle, and in bk mod it is only full automatic rifle.
axis lost kch unit, and evasive maneuvers for stormtroops were delayed, and only luftwaffe infantry are good now.
allies have more specialized infantry in their doctrines, axis only get "special bonuses" for their basic infantry in their doctrines.
but i cant see balance problems here.

i agree 82nd airborne can get passive camo, but axis infantry cant be weaker. otherwise the balance will collapse.

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MarKr
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Re: BK improvements

Postby MarKr » 22 Oct 2018, 00:07

seha wrote:mp44 was semi automatic, bolt action and full automatic assault rifle, and in bk mod it is only full automatic rifle.
I wrote there "over-represented" not "over-rated". It was meant by that, that Germans built 426 000 pieces of StG44 but for example 1 100 000 pieces of MP40. This means that it was more common to find a soldier with the MP40 than with an StG44. However who in the BK has MP40? Volks can upgrade them (4x per squad, Pios in Def doc can upgrade them (4xper squad), PE Assault pios can upgrade them (not sure... 2x per squad?), the SE Demo squad has one. However the StG44 can be bought for Grenadiers in all docs (2x per squad), Stormtroopers (they have 1x when you get them and can buy 4x more per squad, the Storm demo squad has one iirc, Assault grenadiers in PE have can buy them, (4x per squad, or 6?), the Assault Pios of PE come with 2 of them from the start, the Luft Pios have one from the start, the SS squad can upgrade them too iirc... So basically they are as common as MP40, perhaps even more common than the MP40. Given how versatile the gun is, it also makes any SMGs on the side of allies obsolete, especially when almost any combat unit can have them (and usually does).

seha wrote:axis lost kch unit, and evasive maneuvers for stormtroops were delayed, and only luftwaffe infantry are good now.
allies have more specialized infantry in their doctrines, axis only get "special bonuses" for their basic infantry in their doctrines.
It is not just about having a "rambo squads" Storms are still very good infantry because they have tons of HP and they can get good weapon loadout with upgrades and with unlock they get damage reduction from any source (so they are harder to kill even with arty, grenades, bullets, simply everything). Grenadiers are deadly in both Def and Terror doctrines exactly because of those "special bonuses" - def doc makes their infantry very hard to kill as long as they are in cover, Terror makes their infantry stronger with fallen soldiers, so a squad where 4 soldiers are alive still has fighting power of "5" soldiers (example not 100% accurate). PE infantry gets bonuses through upgrades too - they get veterancy faster, are harder to suppress, cap faster, repair faster, can increase squad sizes so they have more firepower. Allies don't have this
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Warhawks97
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Re: BK improvements

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Oct 2018, 00:15

MarKr wrote:This is something I could agree to. The versatility of Axis infantry is a huge advantage and I also agree that the StG44 is vastly over-represented in the mod.


Good. Whats the most famous BK sound? its the stg sound. Just too much no brainer and "nothing you can do wrong with" upgrade bc at least in late game it always works.

It should be given to a few units like storms and PE assault grens.
back then grens had no stg. We removed kch and suddenly all grens got stg, even those in BK and def doc.

Would be nice to have weapon upgrades not just all the same for all inf units and more specific. Assault grens could start right away with 1-2 stg like assault pios, able to get stg on all men and one lmg available but no g43.

am not 100% sure but I think that some time ago I had a conversation with Wolf about Stickies not detracking enough and he gave some reason for it, not sure what it was, though...


Can it just get cheaper then? Grens pay 50 ammo for hollow charge and insta whipe a tank, stickies dont do shit many times and need to be upgraded. Nonsense here.



But even if we neglect this range factor, OK, so Shermans were designed to go after PIV and StuGs and objectively the Shermans were better. Realistically speaking (and also according to the "economy" argument), a Sherman cost back then (when converted to USD; at least if this source is to be trusted) about the same as PIV (cca 46 000 USD), StuGs were cheaper (cca 33 000 USD) so Axis would have their main medium tanks as expensive as US theirs, but noticeably weaker - who will ever build PIVs? They will fall prey to the Shermans which are available to every US doctrine, not to mention that M10s and M18s would do short work with them too. So the Axis would simply go for TDs over PIVs every time. Realistic? Sure. Good for gameplay? Not so much because it would intentionally make a unit pointless. On the same note, Tigers were about 120 000 USD so almost 3x as expensive as Sherman while 3 Shermans will destroy a Tiger like nothing. Not to mention the KT which cost about 320 000 USD which is almost 7x the cost of a Sherman.


yes, stugs are cheaper. The Stug III (which this such sources refer to) costs 350. A 76 sherman over 400. Tank IV´s are also cheaper when considering tec cost and upkeep.
Thats aside, lets talk about gameplay

Gameplay wise its also nonsense to go for pershings just bc axis have a double tank IV defense. Nobody asked for 76 wonder weapons or any increase vs heavier tanks.

The 76 used to be better vs KT etc (if you remember) which got lowered for good reason and realism. But have barely boosted its efficiency vs Tank IV´s. Even when ambushing tank IV´s you bounce quite often with 76.

So the 76 is just good enough to defend against them but their offensive capability is utter shit to say at least. Nobody wants it better vs tiger or whatever.

Also i wouldnt mind for a panther cost drop when inf doc gets a jacks and top mounted Mg42 being fixed (brackets etc). just saying.

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Death_Kitty
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Re: BK improvements

Postby Death_Kitty » 22 Oct 2018, 01:18

Shanks wrote:my favorite army is USA, and i play with all the doctrines, and it does not seem too hard to beat WM, i think it's almost balanced

@shanks: My favorite army is also USA, I play all the doctines and you have 1600 hours in bk mod (most of which are invested in US I'm going to assume). If you need 1600 hours to think an army is almost balanced, its not balanced.

@Markr, if i had to succinctly put my feedback into 3 points:
1.) Make german infantry less versatile and StG crazy, buff sticky bombs. A lot. Make it a guarantee de-track. And give smg's and carbines some love. At hand held AT needs to be reduced. It seems ever infantry squad in the game has them. Its a bit ridiculous. It makes flanking hard if not impossible with tanks. (40-50%)
2.) Sure, lets say no one builds Pz-4 if shermans can counter, but it not like Germans don't have other options. Its ok for them to have a weak phase of the game, you know. Asymmetrically, you could have US rewarded for keeping their tanks mobile, being harder to hit while remaining accurate, making flanking a strat, while panzer "has" to remain static. The Sherman should be able to reliably pen it from the front though. (30-40%). 1v1 the sherman should win.
3.) Take a hard look at AT halftracks on all sides. I don't like them. No matter who i'm playing as. (probably the most self centered complaint I have) (0-10%)

I think those 3 things would sate 80-90% of my complaints.

I will take 1 quick aside about the stuka patrol: it would just be nice to see something like that for the allies. Yes, gameplay>realism, but it would feel more authentic to have such an ability for allies. Not to mention something that is balanced against one doc (RE) and OP vs everything else is a 1 step forward, 5 steps back situation, shall we say. A creative solution would be to give luft troops satchel charges. Not to mention this doc has a 1 click solution to defensive lines, while also having possibly 2 best emplacements in the game: 4 barrel flak and 88. Want to build defensive line? K. guard it from fall drops behind you. Satchel charges for AB would also be a good idea.

BTW, the point about bk mod in the beginning: oh i remember... believe me i remember. *shudder*

I guess I've been spoiled by wikinger *shrug*
P.S. "to wit" is an expression ;) It means... "namly" or "such as"

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Jalis
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Re: BK improvements

Postby Jalis » 22 Oct 2018, 02:03

It is fairly possible to have a biased but balanced game. BK have improved a lot for balance, but still have in its genetic the trait ; all that is german is better. It was sometime true, but not always.

If I take a tiger tank and nerf its gun to a PzIV level, then nerf its armour to a Cromwell one, it will be an obvious anti german bias. However if I give you this shitty tiger for the cost of a Sherman it will be balanced. It is what you have at bk when you compare some gun or amour, mostly at USA expense. However in the past it was at the same time cheated and balanced, so we can say bk improvements are real.

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Re: BK improvements

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 22 Oct 2018, 05:39

Shanks wrote:1-the repetition is for see how good you are
2-100 hours of game in bk is very little, I tell you more, there are people who played bk more than 1500 hours, and still do not know how to kill a stug, it's funny ... so I do not care about you hours of game, not much. I know there are good players who do not need much time to learn to play (I have 1600 hours in bk, accumulated for 3 years, although lately I do not play much) ... it would be really interesting to see a game of yours in pvp,i also wanted to play with you, from your side a pvp, but I see that you do not like to reveal your identity ... I'm Ling Yao in steam, if you want to play with me sometime, so you know 8-)

If thats only indicator of good post to you, I'd simply call all your posts a BS

Markr, what is the problem for you to make semi-fire mode for the STG? Cut the audio file to one shot - simple.

@Death_Kitty, btw, Sherman 75 already can fight with stug 4, but on medium distances, some kind of win for Allies.
Thing is Sherman to act properly it must have HE nor AT rounds engaged and while one is on, you probably has shit amount of cooldown, before you can change the round to act 100% against type of enemy you heading to. Thats a great minus, comparing to the all around Stug

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MarKr
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Re: BK improvements

Postby MarKr » 22 Oct 2018, 06:36

Death_Kitty wrote:2.) Sure, lets say no one builds Pz-4 if shermans can counter, but it not like Germans don't have other options. Its ok for them to have a weak phase of the game, you know. Asymmetrically, you could have US rewarded for keeping their tanks mobile, being harder to hit while remaining accurate, making flanking a strat, while panzer "has" to remain static. The Sherman should be able to reliably pen it from the front though. (30-40%). 1v1 the sherman should win.
Yes, Axis have other options to counter the Shermans - most Axis docs have hetzer or JPIV L48 or at least Marder/Geschutzwagen, but this would mean intentionally nerfing several units to a point where they are pointless to build. Having an arsenal of units where only few are any good simply forces you to use the same build order and play the same style every time.

@Luft patrol: It is a "one-click-solution", on the other hand it is counterable with AA units and every Allied doc has some sort of quite effective AA - All CW docs have Bofors and and the Crusader tank. Inf and AB have M16 (even with a separate AA mode) + AB can build AA emplacements and Armor doc has M15A1 (yes, this one is a bit weaker but still works). If you place some of them along a defensive line, there is a good chance to partially or completely negate the whole patrol ability (unlike with off map arty which cannot be countered).

Death_Kitty wrote:Want to build defensive line? K. guard it from fall drops behind you.
Very few people risks this, especially with the expensive Luft infantry. You risk landing in a middle of enemy squads and getting your soldiers killed immediately. Even if you recon the drop zone and drop them safely, most people when building such defense line use boffors or some AA units around and those can rotate 360° and thus kill enemy even if they come from rear. Not saying it is impossible, but very risky.

Death_Kitty wrote:Satchel charges for AB would also be a good idea.
You mentioned adding satchels to Luft infantry so I presume you mean "AB" as in "US AB doc"? They have them already - 101st, 82nd and the HQ squad too (I think).

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:Markr, what is the problem for you to make semi-fire mode for the STG? Cut the audio file to one shot - simple.
To achieve what? Making it shoot semi-auto at all ranges? What will it solve? There is no "switch fire mode" option in this game so then the StGs would be incapable of automatic or at least burst fire at short range and people will again whine about "SMGs beat STG44 at close range? What a bullshit!"

EDIT:
As I searched for some quotes I ran into this:
Death_Kitty wrote:To be clear, i think cw is fine, as well as US in a team game, which allows you to circumvent some of the downsides of choosing any doc. But 1v1, i still think US is subpar, which would be ok if this was balanced around team games, but it isn't to my knowledge.
I think this might be part of the problem here - BK has been saying for years that doctrines are NOT balanced for 1v1 mathces. Before BK got to Steam it was also written in the game launcher (launcher had to be made simpler for Steam so it is not there anymore) but still, despite us telling people over and over that BK is not designed for 1v1, people keep playing it and complaining about balance anyway.
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Re: BK improvements

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 22 Oct 2018, 08:06

Then make make it shoot burst fire only at all ranges, so at least SMGs could take their niche back again, as they should.

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Re: BK improvements

Postby MarKr » 22 Oct 2018, 08:18

That is one of possible options, yes.
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seha
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Re: BK improvements

Postby seha » 22 Oct 2018, 09:20

MarKr wrote:I wrote there "over-represented" not "over-rated". It was meant by that, that Germans built 426 000 pieces of StG44 but for example 1 100 000 pieces of MP40. This means that it was more common to find a soldier with the MP40 than with an StG44. However who in the BK has MP40? Volks can upgrade them (4x per squad, Pios in Def doc can upgrade them (4xper squad), PE Assault pios can upgrade them (not sure... 2x per squad?), the SE Demo squad has one. However the StG44 can be bought for Grenadiers in all docs (2x per squad), Stormtroopers (they have 1x when you get them and can buy 4x more per squad, the Storm demo squad has one iirc, Assault grenadiers in PE have can buy them, (4x per squad, or 6?), the Assault Pios of PE come with 2 of them from the start, the Luft Pios have one from the start, the SS squad can upgrade them too iirc... So basically they are as common as MP40, perhaps even more common than the MP40. Given how versatile the gun is, it also makes any SMGs on the side of allies obsolete, especially when almost any combat unit can have them (and usually does).

if you are saying mp44 should be only for storms and terror grenadiers and assault grenadiers only.....then volks should have free Mp40 in defensive doctrine, or it will be unfair to pay ammo for mp40 when allies can get grease by default, sten by default and thompson by default for some units.

MarKr wrote:It is not just about having a "rambo squads" Storms are still very good infantry because they have tons of HP and they can get good weapon loadout with upgrades and with unlock they get damage reduction from any source (so they are harder to kill even with arty, grenades, bullets, simply everything). Grenadiers are deadly in both Def and Terror doctrines exactly because of those "special bonuses" - def doc makes their infantry very hard to kill as long as they are in cover, Terror makes their infantry stronger with fallen soldiers, so a squad where 4 soldiers are alive still has fighting power of "5" soldiers (example not 100% accurate). PE infantry gets bonuses through upgrades too - they get veterancy faster, are harder to suppress, cap faster, repair faster, can increase squad sizes so they have more firepower. Allies don't have this

allies have better than this, fire up by default for rangers, 82nd airborne and cqb and smoke for commandos to bypass mg fire... and sas are rambo units late game who cant die by mg or get suppressed. even stormtroops and luftwaffe infantry can't do this except with veterancy 3 to fire up.

mp44 is iconic in bk mod and is not over performing
and so it should not be touched.
you can try improve some allied infantry units like 82nd airborne by giving passive camo, but don't make axis infantry weaker.

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Re: BK improvements

Postby MarKr » 22 Oct 2018, 10:18

seha wrote:if you are saying mp44 should be only for storms and terror grenadiers and assault grenadiers only.....then volks should have free Mp40 in defensive doctrine, or it will be unfair to pay ammo for mp40 when allies can get grease by default, sten by default and thompson by default for some units.
I am not saying that. Free stuff doesn't need to be removed from Sturmpios (they can keep them or get free 2x MP40 from start or whatever) or from the Luft pio leader etc. But the StG44 upgrade does not need to be available to Grenadiers, PGrens and SS unit in every doctrine.
seha wrote:allies have better than this, fire up by default for rangers, 82nd airborne and cqb and smoke for commandos to bypass mg fire... and sas are rambo units late game who cant die by mg or get suppressed. even stormtroops and luftwaffe infantry can't do this except with veterancy 3 to fire up.
Fireup is needed because Axis can pin units faster and from more sources - most of their MGs (MG teams, Top mounts, 20mm cannons on vehicles etc.) suppress and pin infantry very fast while the HMG teams of Allies suppress significantly slower (even more so against PE when they get the "less suppression upgrade, or WM/Luft infantry with the Defense unlock) and from vehicles the fastest suppressors are probably M16 and Crusader tanks, so the Fireup is there to prevent complete lockdowns. Commandos smoke is no longer "ninja smoke", the smoke is deployed on their position and once they leave the smoke they are no longer affected by it, so it does not work like "pop up smoke and run to enemy with suppression immunity".
Storms cannot do this on their own but they have an ability in the Stormtrooper command squad which cancels suppression on all Storm units around, make them 80% harder to suppress an provides other attack bonuses too. You can also use the "Assault" abilit from StuGIII which makes all Grens and Storms around 75% harder to suppress and they take 30% less damage. So you are not without options. Luft cannot do this but due to their defense bonus they get suppressed very slowly anyway. So again, it is not true that Axis infantry is lacking in any way.[/quote]

seha wrote:mp44 is iconic in bk mod and is not over performing
There are tons of things on the side of Axis that people call "iconic for BK mod" - MG42, Tiger tanks, Panthers now you mention STG44. Even if they are somehow iconic it does not mean they should not be touched no matter what. And if there is a weapon upgrade that acts like SMG at close ranges and makes every other SMG in the game obsolete (not to mention that it performs quite well at other ranges too). I would argue about the "does not overperform" part.
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Shanks
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Re: BK improvements

Postby Shanks » 22 Oct 2018, 11:41

@Death_kitty....I said "almost balanced", because the tiger is a garbage, in fact I only use the AS tiger

@Mr.feminisdonut...boy so explosive, you should consider everything when you speak of balance, more if it is a person who plays very little BK .. do not you think? .. contrary to what you think of my post, I think yours are good, I just wanted to debate decently, but apparently it's impossible

maybe I will bring some examples of the power of the airbone, and of the supply that provides an almost unlimited capacity for recovery, you can even afford to lose more units than the enemy, you also have some improvements in the center of support armamneto that reduces the price of long-range weapons (machine guns), you can use the hellcat as tank hunter and infantry hunter, etc .. I will try to get some difficult game, so you do not say ,that my enemies were noobs, as soon as I can .... you talk about thompson, that they are bad, but long distance inf + short distance inf = destruction, without taking into account the destructive power of airplanes
everything is about combining units, you make it seem as if it were only unit × unit

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MarKr
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Re: BK improvements

Postby MarKr » 22 Oct 2018, 12:18

Shanks wrote:I will try to get some difficult game, so you do not say ,that my enemies were noobs, as soon as I can
I am not telling you what to do or what not to do, but even if you upload such replay I am 99% sure that people who say that AB sucks will reply like "If the opponent didn't do (something) but rather (something else) you would have no chance. The opponent was a noob!" so I would say it will not really solve anything....just saying.
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Re: BK improvements

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 22 Oct 2018, 12:59

Shanks, I just saying that investing in airborne and relying only on them is just dead tactic. They are only useful when on full support: 3-4 squads of 101 full jackson, command squad and vet upgrade.

https://youtu.be/rP3RvWCt-2s?t=29 - I was using Air doctrine to get only air drops, so I always could affort weapon upgrade/early tech ups, and later-later on a strafes with bomb runs. But I don't think I ever used airborne squad, because I could be defeated.

What I want to say that Air doc has positive things too, but paratroopers part just much weak at early and middle game

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Re: BK improvements

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Oct 2018, 20:52

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:Then make make it shoot burst fire only at all ranges, so at least SMGs could take their niche back again, as they should.



not sure what you mean, it already fire in bursts.

seha wrote:if you are saying mp44 should be only for storms and terror grenadiers and assault grenadiers only.....then volks should have free Mp40 in defensive doctrine, or it will be unfair to pay ammo for mp40 when allies can get grease by default, sten by default and thompson by default for some units.


We have the scoped G43 weapon of mass destruction at default, FG42 all range killer weapon at default, many stgs at default in various units... Who needs M40 :roll:

Also i dont want to lose the option Volksgrens K98+lmg as range support, esspecially as def doc i prefer killing my enemies from distance and letting nothing come close.


allies have better than this, fire up by default for rangers, 82nd airborne and cqb and smoke for commandos to bypass mg fire... and sas are rambo units late game who cant die by mg or get suppressed. even stormtroops and luftwaffe infantry can't do this except with veterancy 3 to fire up.

mp44 is iconic in bk mod and is not over performing
and so it should not be touched.
you can try improve some allied infantry units like 82nd airborne by giving passive camo, but don't make axis infantry weaker.


The majority of axis late game inf dont even need such abilties. Once Vet upgrades unlocked, defensive training unlocked or other stuff like those in PE and you dont have issues with suppression at all unless a sherman activates a 40 ammo suppression ability.

Luft inf gets defensive training which means they get like 80% less suppression, also less damage etc and all they need is yellow cover which later exists everywhere.
I also dont have issues with storms and suppression when i got my leader squad heroic charge ability and vet 1 upgrade.

There are also two or three units with fire up. The 82nd which is currently considered usless anyway and Infiltration rangers which most of the time crawl to their targets anyway and cqc spawns in a house anyway.

You speak about SAS?? You know that half of the RAF unlock if not more is required to achive just that or?



Shanks wrote:@Death_kitty....I said "almost balanced", because the tiger is a garbage, in fact I only use the AS tiger



I dont use any unit with Tiger in its name at all with exception sometimes KT when i go vs Armor and enemies have no SP or when my team provides proper support with (luft) inf/arty and requesting this tank.
The units costing arround 400 MP are the masters of the game and the real strenght of axis. They come fast, are strong, versatile, low upkeep and just crazy cost effective.

@Mr.feminisdonut...boy so explosive, you should consider everything when you speak of balance, more if it is a person who plays very little BK .. do not you think? .. contrary to what you think of my post, I think yours are good, I just wanted to debate decently, but apparently it's impossible


debate decently? Counting hours spend in BK is not a decent debate. You could run the game in the background and sitting in a lobby for hours doing nothing. Would that make anyone better just bc the playtime in steam gets increased?

maybe I will bring some examples of the power of the airbone, and of the supply that provides an almost unlimited capacity for recovery, you can even afford to lose more units than the enemy, you also have some improvements in the center of support armamneto that reduces the price of long-range weapons (machine guns), you can use the hellcat as tank hunter and infantry hunter, etc .. I will try to get some difficult game, so you do not say ,that my enemies were noobs, as soon as I can .... you talk about thompson, that they are bad, but long distance inf + short distance inf = destruction, without taking into account the destructive power of airplanes
everything is about combining units, you make it seem as if it were only unit × unit



That supply yard thing again :roll:

You dont have any advantage of it if you dont field many units. Means, once you lost many units the supply yard doesnt help you in any fucking way to recover.
Only extrem cost effective units and build cost does help to recover and thats why its not rare to have axis having over one hour long last stands or even epic comebacks bc they have the extrem cost effective units in the "middle class" or "medium expensive units"

Supply yard helps you to maintain a superior position or to lay siege on the last enemie territories. It doesnt help a shit to recover bc 0 units= 0 MP saved. No units=0 upkeep, no matter if you have supply yard upgraded or not.


So to get your stuff straight:
Cost effective medium expensive units and generally highly cost effective units= best way to recover and to make comebacks.
Supply yard upgrades to reduce upkeep= helping to maintain an advantage and to use more units. It doesnt help to recover once you lost most of your army.


The reason why US often recover better as CW (or RAF better than RE) is bc you have more medium expensive mutlirole units while CW (unless you play RAF) has many medium expensive but very specialized units.

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Re: BK improvements

Postby Shanks » 23 Oct 2018, 03:30

@hawks...you did not understand what I wrote about the tiger and the hours of play, you should read it again ... and airbone also has cheap units, for example 101 and hellcat


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