Flaks88

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mofetagalactica
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Flaks88

Postby mofetagalactica » 17 Oct 2018, 17:25

How do i destroy flaks88 (armored emplacement) easily without planes, they outrange me so i can't mortar them, missiles does very low damage to them, grenades have so low chance to uncrew them, so in some maps they're really really a bug, but im up for suggestions.

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MarKr
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Re: Flaks88

Postby MarKr » 17 Oct 2018, 18:10

Grenades have same "kill all crew" chance on any emplacement - with (iirc) 60%HP and more the chance is 30%, when on 59% and less, the decrew chance is 60% per grenade. Appart from that I would recommend shooting a mortar smoke at it (smoke from mortars has longer range than normal shots + smoke lowers the 88s accuracy by 75% so it will have harder time killing your units) and then the grenades or satchel charges. In the upcoming beta flamethrowers will have very high chance to kill emplacement crews and garrisoned soldiers so that is going to be an option too (but yeah, not an option in the current build).
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Warhawks97
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Re: Flaks88

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Oct 2018, 19:13

Am i wrong or can boosted def doc emplacments survive even long toms? happend to me.


And that uncrew thing. With my storms i easily kill weapon crews outright. With allis i throw nade after nade without any impact. The germans also deal a significant ammount of damage to the emplacment itself. Thats ok for me but that the allis nade with its fragmentation barely even scratches the crew bugs me so much.



A few weapons could deal a bit more damage considering the ammount of HE dropping into them. Long tom (approx 40 kg shell with lots of HE), RP-3 rockets (27 kg HE?) etc.


Oh, i also required three satchels to kill a full HP bunker, idk if this is intended. I thought it should be three? Just saying.

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Re: Flaks88

Postby MarKr » 17 Oct 2018, 19:44

You're right, US grenades deal less damage to emplacement than they should. Will be fixed.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Flaks88

Postby mofetagalactica » 17 Oct 2018, 20:19

MarKr wrote:Grenades have same "kill all crew" chance on any emplacement - with (iirc) 60%HP and more the chance is 30%, when on 59% and less, the decrew chance is 60% per grenade. Appart from that I would recommend shooting a mortar smoke at it (smoke from mortars has longer range than normal shots + smoke lowers the 88s accuracy by 75% so it will have harder time killing your units) and then the grenades or satchel charges. In the upcoming beta flamethrowers will have very high chance to kill emplacement crews and garrisoned soldiers so that is going to be an option too (but yeah, not an option in the current build).


Please can you check again if smoke works againts flaks88 emplacements cause it may be my bad luck but i feel like it dosnt miss any HE shoot, ( also why flaks have huge damage againts infantry and tanks at the same time? i thought you had to chose between AP or HE but somehow even the HE shoots does huge damage to tanks)

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Re: Flaks88

Postby kwok » 17 Oct 2018, 20:35

I don’t want to sound too whiny, but I feel the greatest strength of the 88 isn’t just its power and unintended durability, but its vision/sight.

The reason mg42s aren’t seen as “op” is because it can’t outsee a basic infantry unit so it’s flankable. On the other hand the 88 has such great sight that it’ll shoot a moving unit before the moving unit can even see it itself. Most good defenses depend on vision to see which way an attack is coming. But the 88 is 360 degrees in firing arc and automatically responds to units coming in beyond max range. Does anyone else feel the 88 could use a vision nerf?

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Re: Flaks88

Postby MarKr » 17 Oct 2018, 21:58

@mofeta: I will check it but last time I tried it, smoke worked. I will also check the effectiveness of AP vs infantry and HE vs tanks.

@kwok: I am not sure now but I think the sight was set this way because otherwise the emplaced 88s never used their maximum range of 85 and were capped at 60. I think it is because the emplacement (or any building when garissoned) provides vision and the units inside can only see as far as the building can see - even if other units around provide more vision. So it seems that if the vision of the emplaced 88s returns back to 60, then the range of those guns will be capped to 60 too.
EDIT about 88s: Actually, never mind, fixed :D
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Warhawks97
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Re: Flaks88

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 Oct 2018, 22:21

mofetagalactica wrote:
Please can you check again if smoke works againts flaks88 emplacements cause it may be my bad luck but i feel like it dosnt miss any HE shoot, ( also why flaks have huge damage againts infantry and tanks at the same time? i thought you had to chose between AP or HE but somehow even the HE shoots does huge damage to tanks)



Its bc of vcoh remnants.

The damage of tigers 88 mm/L56 is (5.16 version) 600-750. 90 mm US guns are 650-650 and german 88 mm L/71 (Jagdpanther, KT, Elephant, Nashorn, pak 43) is 675-825.

That 88 here (which is the one Tiger I uses) has insane 750-1000 damage. With AP even 937,5-1250 damage.

Just get this relation. Panther has 800 HP and, churchills 750 and Tigers and Pershings arround 1000-1100 HP.


Or in other words, the lowest possible damage for flak 88 is as high as Tigers highest.
Thats from vcoh in which the 88 was the only weapon able to two or three shot tanks.


Its accuracy is also superb. But thats ok. The weapon had an accuracy of doom.

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Re: Flaks88

Postby mofetagalactica » 17 Oct 2018, 23:36

Warhawks97 wrote:
mofetagalactica wrote:
Please can you check again if smoke works againts flaks88 emplacements cause it may be my bad luck but i feel like it dosnt miss any HE shoot, ( also why flaks have huge damage againts infantry and tanks at the same time? i thought you had to chose between AP or HE but somehow even the HE shoots does huge damage to tanks)



Its bc of vcoh remnants.

The damage of tigers 88 mm/L56 is (5.16 version) 600-750. 90 mm US guns are 650-650 and german 88 mm L/71 (Jagdpanther, KT, Elephant, Nashorn, pak 43) is 675-825.

That 88 here (which is the one Tiger I uses) has insane 750-1000 damage. With AP even 937,5-1250 damage.

Just get this relation. Panther has 800 HP and, churchills 750 and Tigers and Pershings arround 1000-1100 HP.


Or in other words, the lowest possible damage for flak 88 is as high as Tigers highest.
Thats from vcoh in which the 88 was the only weapon able to two or three shot tanks.


Its accuracy is also superb. But thats ok. The weapon had an accuracy of doom.


So it pretty much blow anything without needing to pick between ap or he ? Is this going to be leaved like that or its at least being considerated by mark?

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Re: Flaks88

Postby Tiger1996 » 18 Oct 2018, 00:21

MarKr wrote:EDIT about 88s: Actually, never mind, fixed

What is fixed? Less sight range for flak 88s you mean?
Are you sure that the fix is not reducing the actual gun range as well?

@Hawks
I agree that flak 88s should have similar damage as Tiger1 cannon, and by the way.. the flak 88 penetrates Pershing MUCH better than Tiger1 somehow.

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Re: Flaks88

Postby kwok » 18 Oct 2018, 00:25

@markr
Ah I see. What a pain to deal with. Not even using modifiers would get around this? I never tried in coh2 and am away right now so I can’t test if it would work in coh2

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Re: Flaks88

Postby MarKr » 18 Oct 2018, 08:48

kwok wrote:@markr
Ah I see. What a pain to deal with. Not even using modifiers would get around this? I never tried in coh2 and am away right now so I can’t test if it would work in coh2

MarKr wrote:EDIT about 88s: Actually, never mind, fixed :D
;)

mofetagalactica wrote:Is this going to be leaved like that or its at least being considerated by mark?
It is going to be tweaked. Otherwise there is little reason to switch between the two. What I've done sofar is reduction of AP ammo against infantry targets and increased scatter in case of a miss so the AP should miss more often when fired at infantry. Then also the damage dealt to tanks by HE is reduced - other HE shots deal only 25% of normal damage to tanks, the 88s now deal 50% (and they have a solid basic damage) so it will be dropped to the standard 25%. This way HE will be more effective against infantry (and still effectie against light vehicles) and AP against tanks.
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Re: Flaks88

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Oct 2018, 12:08

Tiger1996 wrote:
@Hawks
I agree that flak 88s should have similar damage as Tiger1 cannon, and by the way.. the flak 88 penetrates Pershing MUCH better than Tiger1 somehow.



Well, the basic pen for Tiger vs Pershing is 80% at point blank and 90% for the flak 88. The pen modifiers over distant is the same.

But we are once again back on the range brackets.

Tiger has 15/30/45/60
Flak 88 has 35/50/65/80.

In other words when a Pershing is lets say 30 range away (pretty much the middle of their total gun range) the pen of Tiger dropps to approx 73,6%. The Flak 88 still fires point blank and as thus still 90% pen chance.

If we go to lets say 50 range then tiger dropps to below 66,4% pen (which is this low at 45 range) while Flak 88 has still over 82,8% pen chance (which is achieved at 50 range).

So the range bracket is the main factor why the flak 88 is so much better in terms of pen as it loses by far less quickly pen power.



But there are many other differences.

For example the Tiger has much better basic pen stats vs churchill which however get balanced due to worse range brackets.
Thus tiger has 72,23% pen at point blank and flak 88 has just 59,245%, but due to range brackets the pen chance vs churchill at 50 range is for flak 88 54,5%, for Tiger somewhat below 60%.



So Questions at Markr:
1. Gets vision fixed? from what i can gather here it will
2. What will happen to the damage? Will it still outclass nashorn/Jagdpanther/KT/Elephant?
3. Will range brackets and tt´s be adjusted to prevent different effectivness vs different targets?
4. Is it true that flak 88 reloads faster than a 50 mm AT gun?
5. Off-topic: Has the emplaced 88 pak 43 higher damage than the mobile pak 43 and better range brackets?? And have both now accuracy drop over distance and always 100%?


And can you check the aim time stats of AT guns? Shouldnt medium AT guns have 2 seconds? I havent build any AT gun yet since introduction of the AT-rifle squad so i couldnt see it in game.
The allied medium AT gun has somehow got its reload time as ready aim time (5-5.5 seconds). I think thats a mistake or?

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Re: Flaks88

Postby kwok » 18 Oct 2018, 21:36

I think you missed a patch Warhawks. Aim times for all AT guns were adjusted to prevent exploits. That’s a big reason why I asked for slower vehicles.

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Re: Flaks88

Postby Shanks » 19 Oct 2018, 11:14

mofetagalactica wrote:How do i destroy flaks88 (armored emplacement) easily without planes, they outrange me so i can't mortar them, missiles does very low damage to them, grenades have so low chance to uncrew them, so in some maps they're really really a bug, but im up for suggestions.



Para que usar aviones? Si tenes artilleria de sobra en todas las facciones?, si no queres usar artilleria, usa cortina de humo, pero es menos seguro.Mejor hacete un 105 mm y te lo cagas a palos..si sos blindado caliopealo y despues entra como loco ( lo menos recomendable, en resumen deja que tu compañero el artillero lo destruya si sos doc armor)...si sos churchil, usa el sherman con los misiles o 90 mm..arty arty arty man, no es only inf el juego

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Re: Flaks88

Postby MarKr » 19 Oct 2018, 11:26

Shanks wrote:Para que usar aviones? Si tenes artilleria de sobra en todas las facciones?, si no queres usar artilleria, usa cortina de humo, pero es menos seguro.Mejor hacete un 105 mm y te lo cagas a palos..si sos blindado caliopealo y despues entra como loco ( lo menos recomendable, en resumen deja que tu compañero el artillero lo destruya si sos doc armor)...si sos churchil, usa el sherman con los misiles o 90 mm..arty arty arty man, no es only inf el juego

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Re: Flaks88

Postby Shanks » 19 Oct 2018, 12:26

Why use planes? If you have artillery to spare in all factions? If you do not want to use artillery, use a smoke screen, but it is less safe. Better make yourself a 105 mm and shit it out of hand ... if you are armor, arty with caliope, and then enter like crazy ( the least recommended..... in short let your partner the artilleryman destroy it if you are doc armor) ... if you are churchil, use the sherman with the missiles or 90 mm..arty arty arty man, it is not only inf the game

the above would be the translation with google, as you can see I did not write anything bad, mofeta is Argentine, we speak the same language, although I ignored these rules in the forum

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Re: Flaks88

Postby MarKr » 19 Oct 2018, 12:52

The rule is not there only to check if people say something bad but also for the case that someone else would have same question - this might be an answer for the person too but he/she will not understand because he/she doesn't speak your language. So it is also to prevent people creating a topic about the same thing 20x.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Flaks88

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Oct 2018, 18:19

kwok wrote:I think you missed a patch Warhawks. Aim times for all AT guns were adjusted to prevent exploits. That’s a big reason why I asked for slower vehicles.


i know. But this is apparently a bug.

medium AT guns had like 2-3 sec aim time and heavy AT 4 sec. Now a few mediums got back to 4 seconds and the US medium one got 5-5.5 sec ready aim time which is the exact number of its reload speed. So it seems more likely that values got just messed up a bit.


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