Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

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MEFISTO
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Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MEFISTO » 29 Sep 2018, 00:49

Tigers are a joke.
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Tiger1996
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Tiger1996 » 29 Sep 2018, 01:55

No worries, Tigers are already getting improvements on the next patch.. as you might have noticed on the beta of upcoming 5.1.6 patch.

They still didn't add hold fire ability, but they will ;)

MEFISTO
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MEFISTO » 29 Sep 2018, 03:09

Tiger1996 wrote:No worries, Tigers are already getting improvements on the next patch.. as you might have noticed on the beta of upcoming 5.1.6 patch.

They still didn't add hold fire ability, but they will ;)

If you watch the replay you will see the "SUPER JUMBO" vs the Tiger jajajaj it's a joke

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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby kwok » 29 Sep 2018, 03:27

I can hear mefisto’s voice reading this

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Robb
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Robb » 29 Sep 2018, 08:13

Tiger1996 wrote:
They still didn't add hold fire ability, but they will ;)


You mentioned that before but what would be the use of that?

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 29 Sep 2018, 11:34

MEFISTO wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:No worries, Tigers are already getting improvements on the next patch.. as you might have noticed on the beta of upcoming 5.1.6 patch.

They still didn't add hold fire ability, but they will ;)

If you watch the replay you will see the "SUPER JUMBO" vs the Tiger jajajaj it's a joke

That was same in reality!

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Warhawks97 » 29 Sep 2018, 12:36

MEFISTO wrote:
If you watch the replay you will see the "SUPER JUMBO" vs the Tiger jajajaj it's a joke


If you watch other replays wou will see the "SUPER TANK IV" vs the 76 Sherman. It´s a joke.



Omg, really? again such a topic?

Why is it a joke? Jumbo had effectively more armor (and spaced as well) and its gun with HVAP could pen a Tiger. US shermans actually encountered only three times Tigers during the Campaign in France.
The british faced the majority of Tigers in France.
So why is getting everybody so upset when a jumbo beats a Tiger? Just one damn reason. Perhaps because everybody has read the Tiger Propaganda pages but never ever heared of 76 mm guns and HVAP rounds?


As Tiger mentioned, the Tigers will get their accuracy buff which means they can take out enemies from superior range as well as getting the accurate long shot earlier and even a damage increase which largely increases the chances of taking out tanks in a single shot.


Edit:
Just watched the replay to min 20. And are you serious Mefisto? Did you watch that replay? You and Beren, you both could have won the game easily at that time. At the time you send your single stug for an attack, killing greyhound and infantry, all you and your mates had to do was to send some infantry.

At min 19, just compare the forces. One US player had nothing left but a single AT squad. Erich only had two 76 shermans and CW hadnt anything powerfull besdes 17 pdr and AA tank but beren got his Walking stuka already.
In terms of ressources you had tons of it, your enemies had nothing.
You guys played the most ugly way possible. Camping, heavy rocket launchers and a Vampire "Map-Hack" Halftrack. On top of that just Sd2´s and Firestorm against enemies that had perhaps 10% the strenght and ressources of what you guys had. Its almost a shame how you guys, despite such superiority, were unable to do anything else but sitting behind AT guns, Meta Stugs, Trenches, Sandbags and using exclusively Artillery and off maps.
And then you complain about "weak Tigers"? This is crying and complaining at very high level! The Jumbo was the very last option Erich had at this time while you guys had billions of options.
At the end you didnt even bother to retreat it for repairs. And why did you even drive into jumbos run range? You have more range.

The last thing: I see so many axis players that have a very defensive style but non of them picks a defensive doctrine bc they all label themselfs as "offensive players" with stugs and artillery. Why not one of you guys picking Th or SE or def doc? No... everybody wants Panthers and Tigers. Its such s shame to pick a defensive doctrine when having a defensive gamestyle.

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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Tiger1996 » 30 Sep 2018, 04:11

Robb wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:
They still didn't add hold fire ability, but they will ;)


You mentioned that before but what would be the use of that?

Hold Fire ability is extremely important for any tank with long reload, not to waste shots.

Example:
if you are advancing with your tank in order to hunt a TD but then your tank suddenly decides to shoot while moving against some other irrelevant target (let's say an engineer squad) and therefore you reach the TD when you have to reload, giving the chance for the TD to shoot you first!
Or when you have a Scott tank or Stuh which keep targeting everything that comes to their range.. wasting shots here and there all the time.

So, hold fire ability will allow you to control when your tank should fire and when it shouldn't.. that would be a huge bonus.

MEFISTO
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MEFISTO » 30 Sep 2018, 06:17

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:
MEFISTO wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:No worries, Tigers are already getting improvements on the next patch.. as you might have noticed on the beta of upcoming 5.1.6 patch.

They still didn't add hold fire ability, but they will ;)

If you watch the replay you will see the "SUPER JUMBO" vs the Tiger jajajaj it's a joke

That was same in reality!

No my friend it was not! in real battle you need at lest 5 shermans to flank and destroy 1tiger! this is a joke :shock:

MEFISTO
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MEFISTO » 30 Sep 2018, 07:08

Warhawks97 wrote:
MEFISTO wrote:
If you watch the replay you will see the "SUPER JUMBO" vs the Tiger jajajaj it's a joke


If you watch other replays wou will see the "SUPER TANK IV" vs the 76 Sherman. It´s a joke.



Omg, really? again such a topic?

Why is it a joke? Jumbo had effectively more armor (and spaced as well) and its gun with HVAP could pen a Tiger. US shermans actually encountered only three times Tigers during the Campaign in France.
The british faced the majority of Tigers in France.
So why is getting everybody so upset when a jumbo beats a Tiger? Just one damn reason. Perhaps because everybody has read the Tiger Propaganda pages but never ever heared of 76 mm guns and HVAP rounds?


As Tiger mentioned, the Tigers will get their accuracy buff which means they can take out enemies from superior range as well as getting the accurate long shot earlier and even a damage increase which largely increases the chances of taking out tanks in a single shot.


Edit:
Just watched the replay to min 20. And are you serious Mefisto? Did you watch that replay? You and Beren, you both could have won the game easily at that time. At the time you send your single stug for an attack, killing greyhound and infantry, all you and your mates had to do was to send some infantry.

At min 19, just compare the forces. One US player had nothing left but a single AT squad. Erich only had two 76 shermans and CW hadnt anything powerfull besdes 17 pdr and AA tank but beren got his Walking stuka already.
In terms of ressources you had tons of it, your enemies had nothing.
You guys played the most ugly way possible. Camping, heavy rocket launchers and a Vampire "Map-Hack" Halftrack. On top of that just Sd2´s and Firestorm against enemies that had perhaps 10% the strenght and ressources of what you guys had. Its almost a shame how you guys, despite such superiority, were unable to do anything else but sitting behind AT guns, Meta Stugs, Trenches, Sandbags and using exclusively Artillery and off maps.
And then you complain about "weak Tigers"? This is crying and complaining at very high level! The Jumbo was the very last option Erich had at this time while you guys had billions of options.
At the end you didnt even bother to retreat it for repairs. And why did you even drive into jumbos run range? You have more range.

The last thing: I see so many axis players that have a very defensive style but non of them picks a defensive doctrine bc they all label themselfs as "offensive players" with stugs and artillery. Why not one of you guys picking Th or SE or def doc? No... everybody wants Panthers and Tigers. Its such s shame to pick a defensive doctrine when having a defensive gamestyle.

I am not crying WTF, Tigers are waek! That is the reason of the post, not whole game.
Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. E
Armour 25–120 mm (0.98–4.72 in)[5][6]
Main
armament
1× 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56

The Wa Pruef report estimated that the Tiger's 88 mm gun would be capable of penetrating the differential case of an American M4 Sherman from 2,100 m (1.3 mi) and the turret front from 1,800 m (1.1 mi), but the Tiger's 88 mm gun would not penetrate the upper glacis plate at any range. The M4 Sherman's 75 mm gun would not penetrate the Tiger frontally at any range, and needed to be within 100 m to achieve a side penetration against the 80 mm upper hull superstructure. The Sherman's upgraded 76 mm gun would have the possibility to penetrate the Tiger's driver's front plate from 600 m, the nose from 400 m and the turret front from 700 m.
Jumbo can penetrate the tiger, yes it was short range but I was using armour-piercing AT munition at short range, so I had to destroy that Jumbo.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Warhawks97 » 30 Sep 2018, 11:59

MEFISTO wrote:I am not crying WTF, Tigers are waek! That is the reason of the post, not whole game.
Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. E
Armour 25–120 mm (0.98–4.72 in)[5][6]
Main
armament
1× 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56

The Wa Pruef report estimated that the Tiger's 88 mm gun would be capable of penetrating the differential case of an American M4 Sherman from 2,100 m (1.3 mi) and the turret front from 1,800 m (1.1 mi), but the Tiger's 88 mm gun would not penetrate the upper glacis plate at any range. The M4 Sherman's 75 mm gun would not penetrate the Tiger frontally at any range, and needed to be within 100 m to achieve a side penetration against the 80 mm upper hull superstructure. The Sherman's upgraded 76 mm gun would have the possibility to penetrate the Tiger's driver's front plate from 600 m, the nose from 400 m and the turret front from 700 m.
Jumbo can penetrate the tiger, yes it was short range but I was using armour-piercing AT munition at short range, so I had to destroy that Jumbo.




1. Jumbo never met Tiger. There have been only 254 Jumbos with 75 mm gun (few got 76 gun later) in service with US army.
2. It was nota 75 mm Gun, it was a 76 mm gun which was first introduced shermans from early 44 onwards and which saw first action in mid july 44. US just didnt send them to Normandy bc they didnt expect so many panthers. So they had them at stock in great britain but not send for the invasion. Later they send 75 mm and 76 sherman. After battle of the bulge they only send 76 shermans. So during the time 76 guns on shermans saw action in france, the americans have met only 3 times a tiger tank and only once with shermans.
3. This 76 mm gun had HVAP rounds which during tests vs captured Panthers showed similiar, sometimes even better results, than standard 17 pdr APCPC shots. It could penetrate Panthers frontal armor -depending on Panthers armor quality- from 700 meters and Tigers frontal armor logically from even greater distances. But generally we can say that HVAP on 76 mm guns could pen a Tiger from 700 meters.
4. The sherman you faced was not a regular sherman and instead jumbo sherman. It had two Frontal turret plates each 89 mm thick (178 mm total) and 152 mm side turret armor. It also had two Hull plates with 38 mm and 64 mm armor which in total made it 102 mm thick and slopped. So jumbo with 76 mm gun and HVAP rounds had a better chance to pen a tiger than a Tiger had to penetrate a Jumbo.
The Tigers APCR could pen Jumbos turret but still struggled to pen its Hull.
5. You did pen but also failed in a shot. The sherman has a faster reload now. Shermans were btw the fastest shooting tanks due to comfortable space for the crew, good ammo size and weight etc unlike Panthers and Firefly where reload was much more difficult.

EDIT by MarKr: Edited unnecesarily long quote showing Mefisto quoting Hawks, quoting Mefisto.

MEFISTO
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MEFISTO » 30 Sep 2018, 18:19

Warhawks97 wrote:1. Jumbo never met Tiger. There have been only 254 Jumbos with 75 mm gun (few got 76 gun later) in service with US army.
2. It was nota 75 mm Gun, it was a 76 mm gun which was first introduced shermans from early 44 onwards and which saw first action in mid july 44. US just didnt send them to Normandy bc they didnt expect so many panthers. So they had them at stock in great britain but not send for the invasion. Later they send 75 mm and 76 sherman. After battle of the bulge they only send 76 shermans. So during the time 76 guns on shermans saw action in france, the americans have met only 3 times a tiger tank and only once with shermans.
3. This 76 mm gun had HVAP rounds which during tests vs captured Panthers showed similiar, sometimes even better results, than standard 17 pdr APCPC shots. It could penetrate Panthers frontal armor -depending on Panthers armor quality- from 700 meters and Tigers frontal armor logically from even greater distances. But generally we can say that HVAP on 76 mm guns could pen a Tiger from 700 meters.
4. The sherman you faced was not a regular sherman and instead jumbo sherman. It had two Frontal turret plates each 89 mm thick (178 mm total) and 152 mm side turret armor. It also had two Hull plates with 38 mm and 64 mm armor which in total made it 102 mm thick and slopped. So jumbo with 76 mm gun and HVAP rounds had a better chance to pen a tiger than a Tiger had to penetrate a Jumbo.
The Tigers APCR could pen Jumbos turret but still struggled to pen its Hull.
5. You did pen but also failed in a shot. The sherman has a faster reload now. Shermans were btw the fastest shooting tanks due to comfortable space for the crew, good ammo size and weight etc unlike Panthers and Firefly where reload was much more difficult.

I know taht Jumbo is a very good Armor specially because his main gun and Armor but in the game it cost only 780mp and you are telling me that it can contain a Tiger taht has a Flack 88L51 AA specially with AP rounds at short distance? and the tiger is much more expensive 975mp and 165fuel are you really kidding me? For a reason almost all veterans player rush M26 pershings before Jumbo.

EDIT by MarKr: Edited unnecesarily long quote showing previous post where Hawks was quoting MEFISTO, quoting Hawks, who quoted MEFISTO. Seriously, guys, learn to shorten the quotes, there is no need to read the same stuff 4x in 2 posts, especially there is no need to quote the whole previous post if you react to the post directly above.

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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Shanks » 30 Sep 2018, 18:38

MEFISTO wrote:I know taht Jumbo is a very good Armor specially because his main gun and Armor but in the game it cost only 780mp and you are telling me that it can contain a Tiger taht has a Flack 88L51 AA specially with AP rounds at short distance? and the tiger is much more expensive 975mp and 165fuel are you really kidding me? For a reason almost all veterans player rush M26 pershings before Jumbo.


; sapito :lol:

EDIT by MarKr: Same as the two above.

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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MarKr » 30 Sep 2018, 19:41

@MEFISTO: It is just RNG. At the closest range normal Tiger shot has 50% chance to penetrate (66.5% with AP active), at the "short range" it is 46% (61.18% with AP). Penetrative shot deals (in 5.1.5) 550-700 (687-875 with AP) damage (jumbo has 750 HP).

76mm gun of Jumbo has 41% (63% with AP) chance to penetrate Tiger frontally at closest range, and 34% (52% with AP) to penetrate at the "short range". Jumbo shot deals 400-600 damage (no increase from AP) and Tigers have 1000HP (early), 1100HP (late) and 1250HP (Ace).

Overall the Tiger has advantage in basic penetration, penetration with AP and also in damage and AP damage (where it has a good chance to one-shot Jumbo), however the Tiger's advantage is bigger when shooting over distance because Jumbo has much steeper penetration drop over range, also in 5.1.5 Tigers can shoot from bigger distance than Jumbos.
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Tiger1996 » 30 Sep 2018, 19:56

@MEFISTO
Jumbo costs only 780 MP but requires 7 CPs while Tiger1 late version requires only 4 CPs in Blitz doc, and 5 CPs in Terror doc.
Also, you can have 2 Tigers but only 1 Jumbo at once... I think the Jumbo is fine, specifically after improving Tigers on the upcoming 5.1.6 patch ;)

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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Shanks » 30 Sep 2018, 20:00

@markr, I believe that no tank of 76 mm or 75 mm should be able to break the tiger's canon I do not like that and I do not think it's good for balance...because as far as I know, no WM tank can break the pershing cannon, I never saw it

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MarKr
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MarKr » 30 Sep 2018, 20:36

"break the cannon"?
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Shanks
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Shanks » 30 Sep 2018, 20:43

destroy the cannon, my english is bullshit

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Warhawks97
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Warhawks97 » 30 Sep 2018, 20:43

MarKr wrote:"break the cannon"?


main canon destroyed

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MarKr
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MarKr » 30 Sep 2018, 20:54

Oh, this...The chance to destroy the main gun on a Pershing is same as on Tiger. The main gun can get destroyed even by PIV 75mm gun, but also by Tigers, Panthers, KTs etc.
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Shanks
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Shanks » 30 Sep 2018, 21:19

I never saw a panzer H or stug destroy the pershing cannon, never ... maybe you should check the odds

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MarKr
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MarKr » 30 Sep 2018, 22:01

I've just checked, the chances to destroy the cannon of Pershing are the same for PIV H/StuG as for Shermans to destroy Tiger/Panther cannon. But as with any "crit type" you need to deal damage to have a chance that the target gets the critical, that means you need to penetrate the armor, so bounced shots cannot destroy cannons and medium tanks don't penetrate these heavy tanks very often.
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Shanks
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby Shanks » 01 Oct 2018, 00:55

ok, I just did not see a 75 mm cannon destroy of pershing cannon, except hetzer in ambush

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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby mofetagalactica » 02 Oct 2018, 04:16

MarKr wrote:I've just checked, the chances to destroy the cannon of Pershing are the same for PIV H/StuG as for Shermans to destroy Tiger/Panther cannon. But as with any "crit type" you need to deal damage to have a chance that the target gets the critical, that means you need to penetrate the armor, so bounced shots cannot destroy cannons and medium tanks don't penetrate these heavy tanks very often.


Why somethimes when tanks are just at 100HP and you pen them but only deal like 1 HP damage and crit them, does this mean that criticals lowers your damage input or something like that? You just said that to deal a critical you must do damage, then why somethimes that damage does only about 1HP-10HP? I tought minimal damage for example shermans where about 400.

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MarKr
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Re: Tigers and Tiger Ace are USSELES

Postby MarKr » 02 Oct 2018, 07:48

The damage system in CoH is more complex than just subtracting damage value from HP pool. Basically, if you penetrate a unit and deal some damage, there is always some kind of critical applied on the target. But one of the criticals is als "no critical" - this one does not damage cannon, engine or anything, it only subtracts damage value from HP (and in this where the minimum and maximum damage values are applied). This type of "critical" you get most often. The others (engine damaged/destroyed/detracked etc.) deal the 1HP damage but apply those additional effects.
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