Overperforming Garands

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Wolf
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Re: Overperforming Garands

Postby Wolf » 06 Oct 2018, 10:39

I think some of you consider ranges as some hard borders, where weapon suddenly starts being unusable etc., its not entirely true.

Warhawks even said "But distant and max range is one and the same. So you can actually make the outer blue circles as basically one huge that dominates 40% of the entire cirlce. So from 35 range onwards 60 it uses one and the same value and thats distant.
Everything beyond this 25 range uses simply same accuracy drop (long/distant). Its like saying hitting a target 1 km away is as easy as hitting one that is 400 meter away. Most tank gunners would disagree."

I am not sure which weapon you are talking about with 25 range, but the outer two "blue circles" should not be one huge on most of the tank weapons I think - penetration is usually different on distant-long, on inf weapons, its usually accuracy that is different, most should be smoothlygoinginto-anothercolor.

Kwok even have it correct in the calculator probably.

I am not saying that some weapons might not be set correctly,
but Warhawks is presenting it like:
Long range 40 accuracy 1%
Mid range 25 accuracy 50%
= on range 26 accuracy is 1%... NOPE

.. you probably don't think its like that, but you definitely act like its this way.

Yes, some of the weapons have long and distant modifiers the same, and yes, that could be changed, instead of changing ranges, but if I was just random visitor and would have read what you said, I would assume that everything beyond 25 range is plain wrong. It isn't.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Overperforming Garands

Postby mofetagalactica » 06 Oct 2018, 21:26

Fix the goddamn range brackets please

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Warhawks97
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Re: Overperforming Garands

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Oct 2018, 14:06

Wolf wrote:I think some of you consider ranges as some hard borders, where weapon suddenly starts being unusable etc., its not entirely true.

Warhawks even said "But distant and max range is one and the same. So you can actually make the outer blue circles as basically one huge that dominates 40% of the entire cirlce. So from 35 range onwards 60 it uses one and the same value and thats distant.
Everything beyond this 25 range uses simply same accuracy drop (long/distant). Its like saying hitting a target 1 km away is as easy as hitting one that is 400 meter away. Most tank gunners would disagree."




I am not sure which weapon you are talking about with 25 range, but the outer two "blue circles" should not be one huge on most of the tank weapons I think - penetration is usually different on distant-long, on inf weapons, its usually accuracy that is different, most should be smoothlygoinginto-anothercolor.


What i was talking about is that distant range starts at 35 already and ends at 48. And or 48-60 we dont even have a value and guessing it might use simply distant value. And Axis use same values for long and distant value which would mean they have from 25 range till 60 the same stats.

However:

Kwok even have it correct in the calculator probably.


Jalis and kwok have got some pretty interesting theories and jalis tested stuff arround. I might qoute our private chat bc i think it might be extremely interesting for everyone. Bottom line is: When distant range pen is valued with 0.54 pen modifier and distant range is set from 40-55 then it doesnt mean this 0.54 modifier applies right at 40 range and instead drops continously and proportionally from untill it reaches 0.54 pen modifier at 55 range. And when there is undefined gap between end of distant range bracket and max range (and so far all weapons have such undefined brackets between distant and max range) the modifiers (pen, accuracy etc) keep the same. That means that in this example the 0.54 pen modifier applies at 55 range and keeps till 60.
For AT gun that means that from like 55 range towards 75 the pen modifier does not drop further anymore.
That also means that if you would extend the distant range bracket to 60 which is also max range, then the 0.54 pen modifier would apply first at 60 range and not at 55 already.

Bottom line is that a few guns and weapons have get a huge advantage in terms of pen for example when their brackets are "extended" as for example the set pen modifier applies much later thus having higher pen changes for example at a given range compared to perhaps the same weapon based on another tank. Thus a hetzer for example has a huge advantage over Tank IV/Stug guns (or at guns over their tank counterparts) as they lose far less quick in penetration power.

So, for the long term, it might be usefull to have the distant range bracket to the same value as the max range is so that we dont have huge gaps at which weapn stats (eg pen) does not drop any further although the shot travels even far further.
So here is a what jalis told to us about it. Remarkable work. The test video explains it all.

Ive been wrong in the understanding of how values apply and how brackets work. Still i think a few things could be improved in this regard, esspecially the close range shots of tanks.





I can speculate that makes distant range bracket match with max weapon distance will increase in game weapons efficiency.

About speculations how all of that works, it is Kwok calculation table that is the closest from result I observed ingame. However for it works completely it also need the upper and lower pen multiplier*, not only 1. At least it is what I think at this moment.

* for your Sherman 0.67 and 0.54 to calculate distant range and not only the 0.54

Now if I m wrong perhaps it will help to find what is really true. Today All of this match with my tests, but it would not be the first time false conclusion would come from true facts.



errata

Last I made an experience to be sure distant really exist, but also to validate proportional chance to pen with distance.
Procedure ; target is hummel base TT x2 vs 57 mm atg range 0-100 bracket 30-45-60-100 pen value 0 - 0 - 0 - 0.5

from point blank to 70 impossible to pen. from 71 to 100 the more distant your are from the target the easiest it is to pen.




range min 0 range max 100. bracket 30-45-60-80
short x1 medium 0.89 long 0.77 distant 0

0 to 30 give always x1 at the opposite 81-100 is always 0

take 40 for exemple ; difference between 1 and 0.89 apply proportionally between 31 and 45. at 33 chance to pen would be 0.9843 and 40 would be 0.92 up to 0.89 for 45


It is still an approximation. It miss the exact formula. Kwok one was fine but didn't explain how you can never pen at max range if value distant is set at 0.


case 2 difference between 0.77 and 0 apply proportionally between 61 and 80. 80 to 100 apply 0 so you cant pen, when in previous, only exact 100 distance give you no chance to pen.

here we have a bracket inferior to max distance for a Sherman 76 that means distance 56 to 60 are always 0.54
at 41 you would be around 0.66 and loose a bit less 1 per cent each meter.

I have still experience I would do, but I a bit lazy. I have not the same problem than BK because my own value are harmonized and same rule are use/apply for allies and axis. So it dont cause me balance problem (that is quite funny because I dont care balance too much).

BK is a mess for that, and absence of harmonized rule mostly allows (or were intended) to cheat axis units.

For exemple all tanks 75 or 76 mm with 60 range my bracket are the same whatever it could be an hetzer or a Sherman. Exception would be short barrel such as scott or stumel.

Last I made an experience to be sure distant really exist, but also to validate proportional chance to pen with distance.
Procedure ; target is hummel base TT x2 vs 57 mm atg range 0-100 bracket 30-45-60-100 pen value 0 - 0 - 0 - 0.5

from point blank to 70 impossible to pen. from 30 to 0 the more distant your are from the target the easiest it is to pen.

Like said feel free to make your tests. Just use excessive to absurd value in order to kick out rng from the calculation.




I can speculate that makes distant range bracket match with max weapon distance will increase in game weapons efficiency.

About speculations how all of that works, it is Kwok calculation table that is the closest from result I observed ingame. However for it works completely it also need the upper and lower pen multiplier*, not only 1. At least it is what I think at this moment.

* for your Sherman 0.67 and 0.54 to calculate distant range and not only the 0.54

Now if I m wrong perhaps it will help to find what is really true. Today All of this match with my tests, but it would not be the first time false conclusion would come from true facts.



errata

Last I made an experience to be sure distant really exist, but also to validate proportional chance to pen with distance.
Procedure ; target is hummel base TT x2 vs 57 mm atg range 0-100 bracket 30-45-60-100 pen value 0 - 0 - 0 - 0.5

from point blank to 70 impossible to pen. from 71 to 100 the more distant your are from the target the easiest it is to pen.



https://youtu.be/SLWGcnRMGaE

You can switch to full screen, except first moments, movie is enough good for that.

Roughly it is a visual demo, but also explanation (if needed) how to reproduce such test.

Gun range is here set at 120. 0 to 20 are for short to long. distant is the 100 last meters where penetration is set at 0. Like you will see 0 dont means you have no chance to pen target in the 100 meters which are distant bracket.

That means, on the terrain marked from 0 to 120, you will always pen from mark 100 to 120 (short to long range have pen set to 1)

Terrain mark from 0 to 100 is really is game equivalent to the percentage chance you have to pen the target (accordying to my actual belief) 0 to 100 are here distant bracket. long start at 101.




That leads me to another question. When the value given to a bracket applies fully at the end of the bracket, how does the 1.25 pen modifier works we gave to axis medium tank guns in oder to achieve better pen at point blank vs churchills? Does it mean that the tank IV´s have a better penetration at 10 range than at 5? Its not a game changing thing since "knife fights" with tanks are very rare, however that need to be cleared in case short range bracket might get increased. It would quite funny to have german medium tank guns having better pen at 15 range or 20 than they have at 5 range.



But does it also mean that Axis rifles which use for long and distant range the same accuracy dont lose any accuracy from 35 range onwards? Long ends at 35 range and since they dont use different values at distant bracket it would mean that they dont lose any efficiency from that range onwards?
Jeeps, top mounts and and schwimmwagen would need an urgent rework bc either their range brackets are totally messed up like distant range ends at like 30 range and thus having more or less no change in effectivness from 20 range onwards since their long range bracket ends here, distant values are the same as long and from 35 till 60 there is no more defined value at all.

Thx to jalis and kwok for the efforts.

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Wolf
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Re: Overperforming Garands

Postby Wolf » 08 Oct 2018, 21:45

Not sure if I want to read it all, isn't it basically what I told you in one sentence?

"most should be smoothlygoinginto-anothercolor."

If so, then its not entirely new information, and I didn't really expect that you don't know that it is not hard borders but rather gradient.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Overperforming Garands

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Oct 2018, 23:44

Wolf wrote:
"most should be smoothlygoinginto-anothercolor."



If so, then its not entirely new information, and I didn't really expect that you don't know that it is not hard borders but rather gradient.[/quote]

I did not, sorry. Perhaps someone could have informed me a bit earlier about it when it became obvious what i was talking about it.

However to some degree its afterall the case. For example those whos distant range bracket ends before max range which means that at a certain range the performance keeps the same.

Also weapons that use the same modifier for long and distant range do likely not lose power anymore from end of long range onwards since there is no lower value avaialble to which it can drop down.

So for many weapons its likely the case that the colour wouldnt change anymore once long range (35) is reached (jeeps, schwimm, german top mounts and rifles, i think lmgs like the one range use etc).

Perhaps its not a big deal that its the case but still good to know that certain weapons dont lose power/dont gain power (the further/the closer) a target gets.


Also the question remains why the distant bracket ends most of the time well before max range which means that from a certain moment onwards towards the end, between distant bracket and max range, the performance (eg pen, accuracy) does not drop further.

Thus lots of guns reaching their weakest power (eg pen) clearly before max range while a few others do not.

Hetzer for example reaching its lowest pen chance at exactly 60 range, a Tank IV or stug or sherman reach it at 55 range already.


And the fact that many tank guns do suffer a lot from weird range brackets while others have a huge benefit from it is still an issue.

It feels like another old remnant when BK was supposed to be comp stomp bc tanks that are most often spammed by bots have bad range brackets while certain tanks which would most likely be used by players to counter them have way better brackets.


And certain brackets need to be fixed like top mounts, jeeps and stuff. But markr already said its going to be fixed.


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