Dingo-obsolete

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The New BK Champion
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 12 Sep 2018, 00:07

It would be nice to have vikers on dingo, but how would it be different from bren carrier then? Both units would be very similiar with the only difference in ability to carry troops

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Shanks
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 12 Sep 2018, 01:24

MarKr wrote:The impact of any ability would depend on how it is implemented and balancing can be required no matter what change you make - even the price drops might in the end need some rebalancing.

Also, as there were mentions about insufficient firepower of Dingo - if this:
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Became upgradable to this:
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Or perhaps this:
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(don't mind the colored lines)
would it change anything?


I would be more for the BOYS variant - with Vickers it would be one less reason to ever pick Bren carrier instead.



the drop in the price of the dingo, after the captain is on the battlefield, would not affect the balance in a negative way, nor would it be necessary to give the dingo another weapon, because you already have it with other units, the only good to the dingo was to take the AT 37 mm by surprise, nothing else, so it is preferable that the price goes down,which in turn would improve the observation capacity of the British, is what I think

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MarKr
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 12 Sep 2018, 08:18

The New BK Champion wrote:It would be nice to have vikers on dingo, but how would it be different from bren carrier then? Both units would be very similiar with the only difference in ability to carry troops
Yes, that is why I said that I would preffer BOYS rifle - to make it different from Bren Carrier. You don't think that BOYS rifle would have its usage too? E.g. if you combined the camo upgrade with BOYS rifle you could have a solid Scout car/light vehicle counter.

Shanks wrote:the drop in the price of the dingo, after the captain is on the battlefield, would not affect the balance in a negative way
are you sure there would be no negative impact? From my experience every change has some negative impact on one or the other team, it can be very small but still it is a negative one. Dingo is not the only way of recon for brits - they have doctrine specific recon options.
RA has the droppable spotter - he cannot crawl, so you cannot sneak him to enemy territory but you cannot do that with Dingo either. He is more squishy than Dingo but he has arty abilities so he can also cause more damage to opponents.
RAF has triangulation - it is not easy to set up but when you manage to set it up it can detect units in much bigger area than normal spotter units. Royal Marines can crawl so you can crawl with them to enemy territory and set up the detectors there too. Also the detectors don't get auto-attacked by Axis units so the Axis players need to be watching the the part of the map where their units reveal the detector and then they need to manualy order to attack it. RAF can also use binoculars on Recce and you can sort of use the Commandos Sniper as a spotter but he does not have binoculars so he does not provide as much vision but can be used.
So that leaves RE which really is behind in recon. So can the price reduction cause balance issues here? Less fuel spent on Dingo means the player will be able to save up fuel for tanks a bit faster or for the same fuel price get more recons out.
RA and RAF in general don't have so many units to spend fuel on, lowering the fuel price on Dingo to "5" would mean they could build two of them for same fuel price and gain vision of a bigger part of the map.
If the price drop for Dingo comes only after Captain, it obviously would not have a negative impact on the early game , but the later phases of the game could be negatively affected too (the negative impact would be indirect on Axis) - higher number of recon units is advantage and this would allow for more recon units for a player and entire team.

Now you will probably tell me "No, that will not happen, nobody will build 5 Dingos to spot the map." OK, maybe not, I'm just saying that there is always some degree of negative impact and usually it is only a matter of time before someone finds it and starts exploiting it.
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The New BK Champion
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby The New BK Champion » 12 Sep 2018, 09:38

MarKr wrote:Yes, that is why I said that I would preffer BOYS rifle - to make it different from Bren Carrier. You don't think that BOYS rifle would have its usage too? E.g. if you combined the camo upgrade with BOYS rifle you could have a solid Scout car/light vehicle counter.

That would be op, ultimate couter and chaser of PE.

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MarKr
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 12 Sep 2018, 09:45

It would depend on set up - accuracy and fire rate of the rifle, if the OP aspect is in camo + BOYS combination, then they can be mutually exlusive etc.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Sep 2018, 13:24

MarKr wrote:
Shanks wrote:the drop in the price of the dingo, after the captain is on the battlefield, would not affect the balance in a negative way
are you sure there would be no negative impact? From my experience every change has some negative impact on one or the other team, it can be very small but still it is a negative one. Dingo is not the only way of recon for brits - they have doctrine specific recon options.
RA has the droppable spotter - he cannot crawl, so you cannot sneak him to enemy territory but you cannot do that with Dingo either. He is more squishy than Dingo but he has arty abilities so he can also cause more damage to opponents.
RAF has triangulation - it is not easy to set up but when you manage to set it up it can detect units in much bigger area than normal spotter units. Royal Marines can crawl so you can crawl with them to enemy territory and set up the detectors there too. Also the detectors don't get auto-attacked by Axis units so the Axis players need to be watching the the part of the map where their units reveal the detector and then they need to manualy order to attack it. RAF can also use binoculars on Recce and you can sort of use the Commandos Sniper as a spotter but he does not have binoculars so he does not provide as much vision but can be used.
So that leaves RE which really is behind in recon. So can the price reduction cause balance issues here? Less fuel spent on Dingo means the player will be able to save up fuel for tanks a bit faster or for the same fuel price get more recons out.
RA and RAF in general don't have so many units to spend fuel on, lowering the fuel price on Dingo to "5" would mean they could build two of them for same fuel price and gain vision of a bigger part of the map.
If the price drop for Dingo comes only after Captain, it obviously would not have a negative impact on the early game , but the later phases of the game could be negatively affected too (the negative impact would be indirect on Axis) - higher number of recon units is advantage and this would allow for more recon units for a player and entire team.

Now you will probably tell me "No, that will not happen, nobody will build 5 Dingos to spot the map." OK, maybe not, I'm just saying that there is always some degree of negative impact and usually it is only a matter of time before someone finds it and starts exploiting it.



It would still cost like 170 MP. And thats a number. It also cant sneak to locations like WH or US recons. In turn it cant get sniped just as the krad which happens to US/WH spotter if they meet an enemie spotting unit.

Fuel isnt often the issue with CW, not even for RE when trucks got upgraded properly (including the CP res/speed boost). Also not the ammo. Often its MP that hurts CW bc everything is expensive here and no real chance of boosting it. I mean other factions can rebuild spotters more often and PE has unlimited access to krads which can be used combined during assaults to detect all hidden units we might pass and are quick on positions as well. the camo ability would also cost 50 ammo so at the end a single dingo with proper reconassaince capabilties is still again at roughly 200 MP. I dont see a problem here.

The Ultimate reconassaince unit is on PE side anyway with Vampire. If a Dingo causes headaches for you and you start thinking about possible "über-reconassaince-capabilties" for CW , well, you would have to think about units like Vampire first.

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MarKr
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby MarKr » 12 Sep 2018, 13:46

Warhawks97 wrote: If a Dingo causes headaches for you and you start thinking about possible "über-reconassaince-capabilties" for CW , well, you would have to think about units like Vampire first.
It is not about "über recon", or not completely. It seemed to me that people put it like "CW has no proper recon" - they don't have spotters who can crawl, like US and WM, but they have other options that are harder to set up but also more powerful (Arty spotter, Triangulation). So saying that CW "lacks proper recon" would mostly depend on what you consider "proper recon". The only CW doc that lacks recon options is then RE and making Dingo cheaper will make recon a bit easier for RE (which might need it) but since Dingo is available to all CW docs, it will increase recon capability also for the other two (which aren't really "lacking" recon).

The other thing was that Dingo had a role of flanker/harraser (vs AT guns), capper or recon. Now it is only capper or recon so the usefulness of the unit was narrowed. I think it is better to keep wider array of roles for units (if possible) so I tried to throw in ideas for keeping some combat usefulness for Dingo rather than keeping it strictly at recon/cap role.

But if you guys want to narrow it down to cap and recon only, OK then.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Sep 2018, 14:10

Ok.

Firepower?
Well, CW early inf with lieutnant, lmg and perhaps Bren carrier with MG upgrade doing this job quite fine. Dingo would be some kind of "mini Recce" in RAF style with spotting scopes. However it remains expensive in late stages with over 300 MP. Nothing CW can afford at that time.

AT? Like a mechanized version of Boys AT with spotting scopes? Idk if its needed.


I am not against increased capabilties but idk what else it shall do except harrasment in the early stage and spotting duties in late stage. Harrasment is gone with AT-rifle/grenade launcher.


So it would need to be something unique and usefull. I dont see anything here.

Well, lets imagine the heavier MG upgrade (vickers) and camo capability. It would be a mobile HMG ambush unit but for what cost? 400 MP and 50 25-50 ammo and 10 fuel?

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Tiger1996
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Tiger1996 » 12 Sep 2018, 14:33

MarKr wrote:The only CW doc that lacks recon options is then RE and making Dingo cheaper will make recon a bit easier for RE (which might need it) but since Dingo is available to all CW docs, it will increase recon capability also for the other two (which aren't really "lacking" recon).

Then the price reduction can be made only for RE doctrine... Easy solution.

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Shanks
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 12 Sep 2018, 15:43

MarKr wrote:are you sure there would be no negative impact? From my experience every change has some negative impact on one or the other team, it can be very small but still it is a negative one. Dingo is not the only way of recon for brits - they have doctrine specific recon options.
RA has the droppable spotter - he cannot crawl, so you cannot sneak him to enemy territory but you cannot do that with Dingo either. He is more squishy than Dingo but he has arty abilities so he can also cause more damage to opponents.
RAF has triangulation - it is not easy to set up but when you manage to set it up it can detect units in much bigger area than normal spotter units. Royal Marines can crawl so you can crawl with them to enemy territory and set up the detectors there too. Also the detectors don't get auto-attacked by Axis units so the Axis players need to be watching the the part of the map where their units reveal the detector and then they need to manualy order to attack it. RAF can also use binoculars on Recce and you can sort of use the Commandos Sniper as a spotter but he does not have binoculars so he does not provide as much vision but can be used.
So that leaves RE which really is behind in recon. So can the price reduction cause balance issues here? Less fuel spent on Dingo means the player will be able to save up fuel for tanks a bit faster or for the same fuel price get more recons out.
RA and RAF in general don't have so many units to spend fuel on, lowering the fuel price on Dingo to "5" would mean they could build two of them for same fuel price and gain vision of a bigger part of the map.
If the price drop for Dingo comes only after Captain, it obviously would not have a negative impact on the early game , but the later phases of the game could be negatively affected too (the negative impact would be indirect on Axis) - higher number of recon units is advantage and this would allow for more recon units for a player and entire team.

Now you will probably tell me "No, that will not happen, nobody will build 5 Dingos to spot the map." OK, maybe not, I'm just saying that there is always some degree of negative impact and usually it is only a matter of time before someone finds it and starts exploiting it.



Warhawks, Tiger and TNBC have already explained everything to you, I do not think you're still in doubt, and if you think it will be 5 dingos after the price reduction, it only limits the unit to 2, it's easy

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 13 Sep 2018, 11:33

I suggest lowering price of PE armored car as addition, since the CW has the AT boys. Something like 250 and 5 fuel

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Warhawks97
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Sep 2018, 12:01

so that US gets rushed even quicker against PE? Keep in mind that PE starts with 10 fuel more than the other factions. That would mean that scout car comes pretty much always after one min without even capping a fuel point.

Its MG is also vastly stronger. Dingos Vickers has the lowest damage per bullet (12-17. Jeep has 15-20 and axis MG34´s on vehicles like scout car and Schwimmagen have 20-25.) worst accuracy (0.18 at max range vs 0.2 for jeeps and axis vehicle mgs of schwimm and scout car), average rof (8-10 rounds per sec vs 8 of jeep and 15 for axis), low burst duration (2- 2,5 sec vs 2-3 for US jeep and 1-2 for axis schwimm/scout car), most frequent reload (after every fourth burst and takes 5,5-6 seconds. US and axis have to reload only after 8-9 bursts. Duration is for all pretty much the same. 5.5-6 for dingo bren mg, 6 for US jeep and 6-6,5 for axis vehicle MG.



It also has less HP than scout car and cant turn the turret. So it cant dance arround AT guns and other units as easily as scout car. So you compare apples with bananas or even worse, with a cow.

And if you didnt notice: The Scout car gets cheaper later in the game. And we just ask for something similiar for the Dingo.

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 13 Sep 2018, 14:05

I can say that PE could be too rushed with Dingo if they go T1, with pak as counter, as you consider it weak in comparing to AT rifles.
So, you want fixed meta on PE rushing into the tier2 for AT car?

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Shanks
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Shanks » 13 Sep 2018, 18:51

Warhawks97 wrote:so that US gets rushed even quicker against PE? Keep in mind that PE starts with 10 fuel more than the other factions. That would mean that scout car comes pretty much always after one min without even capping a fuel point.

Its MG is also vastly stronger. Dingos Vickers has the lowest damage per bullet (12-17. Jeep has 15-20 and axis MG34´s on vehicles like scout car and Schwimmagen have 20-25.) worst accuracy (0.18 at max range vs 0.2 for jeeps and axis vehicle mgs of schwimm and scout car), average rof (8-10 rounds per sec vs 8 of jeep and 15 for axis), low burst duration (2- 2,5 sec vs 2-3 for US jeep and 1-2 for axis schwimm/scout car), most frequent reload (after every fourth burst and takes 5,5-6 seconds. US and axis have to reload only after 8-9 bursts. Duration is for all pretty much the same. 5.5-6 for dingo bren mg, 6 for US jeep and 6-6,5 for axis vehicle MG.



It also has less HP than scout car and cant turn the turret. So it cant dance arround AT guns and other units as easily as scout car. So you compare apples with bananas or even worse, with a cow.

And if you didnt notice: The Scout car gets cheaper later in the game. And we just ask for something similiar for the Dingo.

Mr.FeministDonut did not read anything

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Warhawks97
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Re: Dingo-obsolete

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Sep 2018, 19:17

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:I can say that PE could be too rushed with Dingo if they go T1, with pak as counter, as you consider it weak in comparing to AT rifles.
So, you want fixed meta on PE rushing into the tier2 for AT car?


You cant dance arround their AT gun actually bc of you have no rotating turret.

I should have mentioned that Dingo (and jeep) suffer further 25% accuracy penalty against PE grenadiers. If you have ever tried to attack PE grens behind sandbags and gren cover with jeep or dingo you would have seen that they take literally no damage bc of the poor basic Bren MG values as mentioned above and the PE gren target_type. So you can still hold the line easier and simply ignore the dingo. A scout car that stays close next to your riflemen behind sandbags get shred quite fast. So you have to go full retreat instand and might lose units in the following chase. A Dingo will less likely kill 2-3 grens during their retreat.


Bottom line: Dingo cant be made cheaper as a PE scout car bc between their performances are worlds.


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